Judge declares US gay-marriage ban is unconstitutional

Originally posted by evil incarnate

Originally posted by Logarock
There is a strong force out there in the world that wishes to shut the church up as a social guild, moral authority, voice of God or whatever, whatever influnce.

By denying tax exempt status? Are you perhaps imagining things? I do not have tax exempt status, do you? Are we not free to speak?

Just one head of this beast is the gay agnenda. Not taking about some folks that just want to be left alone and mind their own. Talking about an ugly power that seeks to one day make it manditory that any licensed preacher or church otherwise will be required by law to violate its self by being required to do gay marriage. We are simply in the beginning stages now.

You are not looking at this realistically in any fashion whatsoever. There is no reason a church should be tax exempt to begin with. If they do pay taxes, they will have that much more right to tell the government to stay out of it. At the moment, they enjoy a priveledge they do not deserve. If they want to abuse that by pushing a political agenda, I should not have to fund their "right" to do that.

We can talk about tax status. The point is they are trying to get them to shut up about certain things! And using what they can to do it.

Its the same as the reverse... taxing someone or organization for speaking out about things. This to is comming to a theater near you.

reply to post by Logarock


You are skipping logic in favor of your leap.

Am I being silenced because I pay taxes?

Are you?

Originally posted by Logarock
We can talk about tax status. The point is they are trying to get them to shut up about certain things! And using what they can to do it.

If that is the case then why are you refusing to show it?

Its the same as the reverse... taxing someone or organization for speaking out about things. This to is comming to a theater near you.

Sure it is.

Originally posted by Logarock
Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

EDIT: Fixed quote.


God I love this one. You are absolutely right. But that's how you were deceived. One foot forward, two-steps back.

The government agreed with the abolition of slavery. This created false trust, and as such churches registered as non-profits. So the trap was snared, and they are now bound to government statues (beast system).

Ecclesiastical law is common law. And while it allows for personal freedoms you may not religiously or morally agree with. It also allows your religion it's religious freedom.

As I stated, by not sticking with Ecclesiastical law (common law) and paying government taxes (giving the beast/Caesar back what is it's, being material greed) they are instead choosing to keep what is the beasts/evil and bound to abide by evil.

I know I'm mixing the religious argument against government, with sovereign arguments. But that is what was being discussed by the beast system.

Money = materialism = evil = beast system
paying taxes = forgoing materialism = not evil = no beast ruling you
tax exemption = greed = evil = replacing trust in god to provide with paying tribute to the beast for protection

(I like how you ignored my post )

[edit on 13-7-2010 by mryanbrown]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by mryanbrown]

Originally posted by evil incarnate
You are not looking at this realistically in any fashion whatsoever. There is no reason a church should be tax exempt to begin with. If they do pay taxes, they will have that much more right to tell the government to stay out of it. At the moment, they enjoy a priveledge they do not deserve. If they want to abuse that by pushing a political agenda, I should not have to fund their "right" to do that.

Just because an issue has found its way into the political area doesnt mean the church has to stop talking about it. Are you nuts?

There are very good reasons why churches have tax exemption. We dont have time here.

But just know that the power to tax is the greater evil here. I see your point about paying tax and being able to speak the louder but in reality it works just the other way around. If they dont like what a church is saying the godammed IRS will show up and intimidate into silence.

And the nature of churches would change legally. Churches could then come under fire for "hate speech". IRS shows up finds a mistake on paper work takes pastor to jail for 5 years under several sections. Or the gov taxes churches out of existance. Ever think of that? And they will.

reply to post by Logarock


You are doing everything you can to avoid a simple question. There can only be so many reasons for this. Is it killing the motive for your thread? Is it upsetting a deeply held belief? Would it make you have to rethink your stance? Stop trying to hard to talk about what you think might happen because of what could be the result of something that is not of any consequence anyway. I will not ask again for you to show me how paying taxes silences me.

Originally posted by Logarock
There are very good reasons why churches have tax exemption. We dont have time here.

But just know that the power to tax is the greater evil here. I see your point about paying tax and being able to speak the louder but in reality it works just the other way around. If they dont like what a church is saying the godammed IRS will show up and intimidate into silence.

There are good reasons you can rationalize. But as I stated you are forgoing faith in God to provide, by paying tribute to the beast to provide security for you.

Which is exactly why tax-exemption applies to the conversation at hand.

The power to tax isn't a greater evil at all. As I stated money is materialism, and to be free from materialism you must forgo it. (Paying taxes/giving materialism back to the beast).

Because as long as you have the mark of the beast (money/materialism) in your hand or on your mind (forehead) you have evil in your heart ruling you. So they allow the beast to rule them, for their desire to flourish in materialism.

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

You are skipping logic in favor of your leap.

Am I being silenced because I pay taxes?

Are you?

No but if you join any organizastion the gov doesnt like they can use tax "laws" against it. And they do this to privet citizens as well.

No I am not skiping logic just skiping all the 10 pages it would take to get to point B.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

You are skipping logic in favor of your leap.

Am I being silenced because I pay taxes?

Are you?

No but if you join any organizastion the gov doesnt like they can use tax "laws" against it. And they do this to privet citizens as well.

Only to people who want tax-exemptions (paying tribute in favor of security rather than trusting in God)

(I'll keep pointing this out all day)

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock
There are very good reasons why churches have tax exemption. We dont have time here.

But just know that the power to tax is the greater evil here. I see your point about paying tax and being able to speak the louder but in reality it works just the other way around. If they dont like what a church is saying the godammed IRS will show up and intimidate into silence.

There are good reasons you can rationalize.

Again these are exsactly the sort of issues that lead to current tax exemption for churches. Believe it or not the status was not based on the kindness of gov toward churches which is where your logic and that of many others is found. It has a complexity in it that has to do with the history of church and state. Start taxing the church and it will really be in bed with the state.

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

You are skipping logic in favor of your leap.

Am I being silenced because I pay taxes?

Are you?

No but if you join any organizastion the gov doesnt like they can use tax "laws" against it. And they do this to privet citizens as well.

Only to people who want tax-exemptions (paying tribute in favor of security rather than trusting in God)

(I'll keep pointing this out all day)

It goes far beyond this if I understand you right. What security and tribute do you mean?

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock
There are very good reasons why churches have tax exemption. We dont have time here.

But just know that the power to tax is the greater evil here. I see your point about paying tax and being able to speak the louder but in reality it works just the other way around. If they dont like what a church is saying the godammed IRS will show up and intimidate into silence.

There are good reasons you can rationalize. But as I stated you are forgoing faith in God to provide, by paying tribute to the beast to provide security for you.

Which is exactly why tax-exemption applies to the conversation at hand.

The power to tax isn't a greater evil at all. As I stated money is materialism, and to be free from materialism you must forgo it. (Paying taxes/giving materialism back to the beast).

Because as long as you have the mark of the beast (money/materialism) in your hand or on your mind (forehead) you have evil in your heart ruling you. So they allow the beast to rule them, for their desire to flourish in materialism.

The power to tax in the context we are talking about it is the greater evil. When did I say anything about paying tribute to the beast?

And if I hear you right you think the church should show its anti materialism by paying tax? Very clever.

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

You are doing everything you can to avoid a simple question. There can only be so many reasons for this. Is it killing the motive for your thread? Is it upsetting a deeply held belief? Would it make you have to rethink your stance? Stop trying to hard to talk about what you think might happen because of what could be the result of something that is not of any consequence anyway. I will not ask again for you to show me how paying taxes silences me.

My man the issues of what might happen were based on what did happen in history when they sat down and gave the church tax free status. It isnt at this point some exsercise in theory but based on the history of the church/state in europe for hundreds of years.

reply to post by Logarock


The Church of Satan is a pretty big advocate of things like Gay Marriage. Do you feel they should have more or less freedom to speak about that and why?

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock
Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

EDIT: Fixed quote.


God I love this one. You are absolutely right. But that's how you were deceived. One foot forward, two-steps back.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by mryanbrown]

Ok I did not post this. At this point i am in favor of believing that your getting handed your junk so you must misrepresent me here.

reply to post by Logarock


Churches register as non-profits solely for the purpose that they believe as a religious institution the government should not interfere. And the government is happy to allow you to believe this, so long as you register for tax-exempt status.

Churches find benefits in tax-exemption, this allows them to keep their donations (materialism regardless of whatever reason) rather than trusting in God to provide for them as needed. Regardless of being taxes owed, or having no money at all.

Because money is the conduit of evil. Not the root, or the cause. We as spiritual beings are to look beyond what money can get us (materialism) and find a natural way to accomplish our goals trusting that God will provide for our mission as needed.

So we were taught by Jesus for instance, to forgo the materialism and render unto Caesar and trust in God to provide regardless of our circumstance.

For a church, this would for example require they trust in God to communicate through the "holy spirit" of it's congregation to donate enough regardless of the church being taxed to build a place of worship.

Or for them to simply pitch in and build the structure by hand from raw materials in nature rather than buying them.

Because by letting go of the materialism, the conduit for evil to work is removed. We give the evil back to the beast system and trust in God.

The church rather, holds onto the materialism (evil) and it slowly perverts them with false trust.

Take mega churches. They all start out small... But then due to tax-exemption they accumulate vast amounts of wealth.

Suddenly it's expensive suites (I'm not materialistic, just need to look nice)
Fancy crystal adornments (It's not materialistic, we are spending it on the church for god).
$5,000 gold watch (what I'm not allowed to own a watch? It was within my means)

Slowly money allows the church to rationalize the indulgence in materialism. And this is paying tribute to evil. Showcasing it's subtle hints that creep in. It whispers, "It's ok. You aren't hurting anyone. A real sin is homosexuality. Not owning a nice watch".

Tribute's made to God come freely through our actions.

(Paul taught our works are meaningless. It's our faith. Faith without works is meaningless.)

Rather than spend $20,000 on stained glass. Your community should be at a level that if one was necessary a member of the congregation would find it in their heart to create it by hand out of inspiration and devotion.

Not to simply buy goodness.

That's the point. The church pays tribute to evil by rationalizing materialism, and the necessity to be tax-exempt. Rather than admitting they shouldn't be concerned with money period.

People will argue money is necessary. Yes a necessary evil because people rationalized it to this degree of permeating our entire existence. We are slaves to it.

Which is why Jesus said render unto Caesar. He was saying,
"Give it back!"
"Don't let it into your hearts and minds."
"Don't concern yourself with it, for it is theirs and not of me."

So you argue that the state shouldn't tax churches because it's interference with religion. But because of that inability to tax, they are tied to the system of law which dictates the money.

The beast system.

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

The Church of Satan is a pretty big advocate of things like Gay Marriage. Do you feel they should have more or less freedom to speak about that and why?

I sure do but dont believe that many gay folk would want to go there!

Yes the state cant regulate here unless someone is doing human sacrifice.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock
Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

EDIT: Fixed quote.


God I love this one. You are absolutely right. But that's how you were deceived. One foot forward, two-steps back.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by mryanbrown]

Ok I did not post this. At this point i am in favor of believing that your getting handed your junk so you must misrepresent me here.

Sure looks like you did.

Originally posted by Logarock
Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

Am I confused?

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by Logarock
Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

EDIT: Fixed quote.


God I love this one. You are absolutely right. But that's how you were deceived. One foot forward, two-steps back.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by mryanbrown]

Ok I did not post this. At this point i am in favor of believing that your getting handed your junk so you must misrepresent me here.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Radiobuzz

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by Logarock

 

Is there a case of gay people trying to silence churches related to getting married?

Not at all! I'm gay and I'm all for letting the Church speak and discuss. I'll begin: let's talk about child molestation amongst the clergy.

Originally posted by Logarock



The gov cant come in and tell churches that basic teachings are political! What maddness.

Madness indeed! Because according to the bible, slavery is very much a good thing which has to be endorsed and regulated. At least that's what Christians used to think back then. Are you going to tell me those beliefs are not political?

Many of the churches in the north were known for thier anti slavey position. What we saw in the south was the church as instrument of the environment....and it was wrong and everybody knows it.

VERBATIM. I said

"EDIT: Fixed quote"

Originally posted by Logarock
I sure do but dont believe that many gay folk would want to go there!

Please try and pay attention. I did not say anything about what gay people would want to do. I am asking if you feel that they, as a church, speak too much or not enough.

Yes the state cant regulate here unless someone is doing human sacrifice.

You really had to stretch to get there. Regardless of all that is wrong with that sentence, I specifically asked about speech, not action so it does not apply.

Let me try again. They are a church. They are for gay marriage. They speak out in favor of that. Do you feel, as a church that they should have their speech regulated.

SPEECH.