New Jerusalem

I know there have been other threads about New Jerusalem in the past, but no two threads are alike. Each has it's on flavor.

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great." (Revelation 16:18)

"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Revelation 16:19)

As bad as some of the recent earthquakes have been, they are as nothing compared to what is predicted. "The Great City, I believe is referring to Jerusalem, which looks like a lot of shaking going on. However, I want to talk about, "New Jerusalem."

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." ( 1 Corinthians 2:9)

"But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." (1 Corinthians 2:10)

And, in line with my train of thought;

"The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever..." (Deuteronomy 29:29a)


There is much, much debate regarding the Holy Bible, whether it is true or not true, whether it is The Word of God or not The Word of God and merely the words of men. I believe there are some here on ATS who frequent the thread topics concerning religious matters know where I stand on the issue.

So, for those who believe the, what is called, "Holy Bible" to be merely the words of men, this thread is not really meant to argue that particular issue. However, if you feel you must vent, then you are welcome.

Anyway, with that said, I find it utterly fantastic, (not in the sense of fictional) to consider an amazing future city called, "New Jerusalem."

Many have been killed in this world over precious metals for, "...the love of money is the root of all evil..." (1 Timothy 6:10)

But, there is a city being prepared "right now," that is worth more than all the wealth of the world we live in.

Some in this world will kill you for a buck. However, before any here on ATS would consider in going to such an extreme or even a lesser extreme to obtain what is considered wealth, consider having access into a city made of gold and other precious materials.

God, in His Word has revealed to us many great promises. Yeshua, (Jesus) His Son, even promised:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2)

I know I would run out of room here if I would give verse by verse the description of "New Jerusalem." The full description is given in Revelation, Chapter 21.

I just want to highlight some of it's characteristics.

A "furlong" is 220 yards. There are 1,760 yards in a mile.

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," (Revelation 21:10)

"And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal." (Revelation 21:16)

12,000 fulongs is 1,500 miles. There is debate, (of course) as to whether The City is square or pyramidal. We know that it lies foursquare, but it may be that The City is the shape of a pyramid. I tend to believe it is.

"The Watchers," "Fallen Angels," have inside knowledge of heavenly things. They were not always in a fallen state. I believe they have subtly revealed the shape of "New Jerusalem" by the formations of pyramids all over the earth. To a certain extent, they know what is to come. They also, know the Word of God much better than we do. The Word of God is spiritually discerned, and they are spirit beings.

It is possible in my estimation, that these fallen spirit beings have seen this "New Jerusalem" and have mirrowed it's image here on earth and or gave knowledge to man to build structures with certain characteristics for certain agenda's. Many human sacrifices were conducted on some of these structures.

Before signing off and by the way I haven't even touched on the scripture regarding the approx. 22 story wall that surrounds The City or the 12 gates with each gate made of a single pearl (Revelation21:21)

Being 1,500 miles high, we cannot even imagine how many levels that may be available to live in and the beauty of this place. We may be able to imagine waterfalls but it is hard to fathom this glorious place to explore. Not to mention the New Heaven and the New Earth.

Well I encourage all to read about it. The Book of Revelation, Chapter 21.

This New City, "New Jerusalem" comes down after:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Revelation 21:1)

In a little over 1,000 years from now, is when this event takes place. It must be magnificent to take that long, but then again:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

Hey! Sounds like it could be tomorrow!

Well, I have a little room left here, so here is the material for the wall that surrounds The City:

"And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst." (Revelation 21:19,20)

Well, practically out of room. I hope we can discuss "New Jerusalem" "New Heaven" "New Earth" Eternal matters rather than how untrustworthy some think the Holy Bible is. I will avoid foolishness, while denying ignorance.

reply to post by Cor Leonis

Of course the length given for each side is also the number of people assigned to each tribe in the "sealing" of ch7.
I think there is symbolic meaning in this point.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Interesting! Never thought about that.

reply to post by Cor Leonis

I think the common factor- or the starting-point, anyway- is that the crowd in ch7 are God's people, and the New Jerusalem is obviously prepared for God's people. Hence the repetition of "12".

reply to post by DISRAELI


Just a maybe! Maybe there is 12 levels within the hieght of it.

Also, off the subject slightly, just looked at some demensions and got a rough estimate.

As the crow fly's the USA is approxiamately 2,092 miles from coast to coast. (LOTS OF ROOM)

reply to post by Cor Leonis


I said that for comparisons sake, not that USA has preeminence over any other country.

Just trying to get a picture of the size.

reply to post by DISRAELI


What are your thoughts about the shape? Pyramid shape or square? Or whatever?

reply to post by Cor Leonis

Also somebody is bound to point out that a cube has twelve edges.

To be honest, though, I'm more interested in the "home for God's people" thought than in trying to visualise the picture.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Well, The meek shall inherit the earth. As far as who lives where, I cannot imagine. I think all of this is really beyond anyones understanding. A lot of things are still secret. I know sounds like a cop out. I just find this City incredible.

Its absolutely astounding to think about. Especially the 1500 miles high detail, so incredible. My excitement can't be contained really.
Maranantha Lord...

Thanks for the post. I know true believers are a rarity around these parts so I tend to steer clear of the "religious" threads. Thanks for making the title clear though

DISRAELI in my opinion made a very good observation.

The city having 12 edges, and each being 12,000 units in length.
Is very reminiscent of the 12,000 each out of the 12 tribes of spiritual Isreal...Rev 7:4-8.
So back to the 144,000.
Known as the 'bride of the lamb'...those that will serve as kings...priests...also called the slave of the lamb.

In Revelation 21 as an introduction to this figurative city, the angel tells John "Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife" Rev 21:9 and then describes this beutiful city, the new Jerusalem

So, I see the New Jerusalem as a figurative representation of Gods organization, and His means of interacting with us when his Kingdom is made on Earth as it has in Heaven (remeber that little line from the Lords prayer...) Those of the first resurection, will serve as priests and kings, be the slave of the lamb, teaching and guiding the great crowd, as the city is portrayed as producing the flowing of the waters of life, the words of God and his provisions for allowing earthling man to return to the perfection he originally purposed.
The vision of this city, is a tool to help men see Gods intent for us, and the structure he will use.

A physical City, or Temple is unnecesary for God, he told David so, but allowed Solomon to build one out of his love for his people and his understanding of their imperfect need to 'see' things.



(Revelation 5:9-10) . . . “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 20:6) 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
(Revelation 22:3-5) . . .But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings . . .

reply to post by Cor Leonis


Personally I think its probably a pyramid, rather than a cube. Part of the reason I think its a pyramid is I think it is the same as the heavenly Mount Zion. A mountain looks more like a pyramid than a cube.

The size of it would be enough room for billions and billions of people either way.

Reading the text, it sounds like Eden is literally within it. Everyone within has the right to the Tree of Life.

Outside of it is kind of fascinating too.

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Revelations 22:15

Ive wondered if beyond the gates of pearl is a hellish post apocalyptic wasteland. Where do these wastelanders come from? Anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life is thrown in the "lake of fire". So these are different people. I wonder if they will ever build armies like Magog and try to storm the gates? A futile effort, but humans are stupid. I am sure the 12 angels who guard the gates would put a quick end to it.

This also makes me wonder if one can get kicked out. If angels can fall from heaven, I can't imagine why not.

I assume if someone was kicked out, they would become mortal and be able to bear children again.

Seems like the cycle (Adam's fall) may end up repeating itself.

I also wonder what happened with Sar (prince) Gog? He isn't mentioned being thrown into the lake of fire like Satan. I wonder if he will be bound outside in the wasteland or the abyss?

Lots of questions are still left.





[edit on 5/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

This also makes me wonder if one can get kicked out. If angels can fall from heaven, I can't imagine why not.

It seems to me that they could not be kicked out, on the basis of
"...so we shall always be with the Lord" 1 Thessalonians ch4 v17

reply to post by DISRAELI


Then I wonder where all these other people come from?

From my reading, everyone is judged on judgement day and all whose names are not written in the Book of Life are thrown into Gehenna.

After looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in context, it appears it is refering to the annointed dead or "the dead in Christ".

Not everyone in the Book of Life is going to be annointed. Revelations 20:4-5

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of G-d. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Compare to 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of G-d, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The annointed dead, who may appear to be martyrs, may never fall due to their righteousness.

This still raises the probability of others who are in the Book of Life, but not among the annointed dead.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Compare to 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of G-d, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Yes,but that sentence continues "then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord, and so we shall always be with the Lord".
So that statement at the end is certainly not limited to the "dead in Christ".

reply to post by DISRAELI


I should of added survivors. A mistake on my part.

So we have annointed dead and survivors, living in a messianic era for 1000 years.

Afterward Judgement Day, though everyone whose name is in the Book of Life has a place in the heavenly Jerusalem, but not all of them were those who lived in those thousand years. I would guess the majority of them were not those who lived during the thousand years.

So my hypothesis, is that among these others, they may be fallible and may get exiled. Some may leave voluntarily.

Where else could these outsiders come from?

The Bible tale of some new Jerusalem coming down from above is probably the reason that most religous folks that I know who believe in this seem to have NO regards WHATSOEVER for nature or animals or anything else that is so beautiful all around us.

Taking a FICTIONAL tall tale and believing it as REAL brings with it the attitude of "why care about this planet earth, we the special-god-cult will get a BRAND SPANKING NEW world from the sky!!" I think that this silly view causes lots of irresponsible behavior upon the earth and towards wildlife (whom according to the bible is here to be sub-living creatures for our choosing).

It just really irritates me to hear of such bible beliefs that seem to lead many to destructive and dangerous attitudes and actions that are just NOT right. All over some fictional tales!

reply to post by MikeboydUS

You see, my concern is that once people start saying that there can be "falling away" in the New Jerusalem, it has the effect of making void the promise of ch 21 v4;
"Death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away".

Surely the whole point of the end of Revelation is the finality of the disappearance of death and other forms of sorrow? If people can fall back into mortality after all, then there is no finality about what has happened.

reply to post by Cor Leonis

I've always pictured a cube.

Foursquare
NT:5068 tetragoonos, tetragon
quadrangular, square;
Thayer's Greek Lexicon

It's hard to wrap my mind around Satan being bound for 1000 years and then being loosed for "a little season" to deceive the nations and make war against the Saints and "the beloved city".

I wonder how long this "little season" lasts.

Rev 20:1-21:1
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

One description of the New Earth from the OT...

Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

You see, my concern is that once people start saying that there can be "falling away" in the New Jerusalem, it has the effect of making void the promise of ch 21 v4;
"Death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away".

Surely the whole point of the end of Revelation is the finality of the disappearance of death and other forms of sorrow? If people can fall back into mortality after all, then there is no finality about what has happened.

I understand the concern and I would think in this New Jerusalem, there would be no death or sorrow. Just like Eden.

Outside would be a different story, which Revelations does say that outside its not a happy or good place. There are even angels at the gates to guard them, implying they are guarding it from the world outside.

To me the finality is about G-d among humanity, directly ruling His people.

Maybe the people in the Holy City cannot fall and become mortal. Maybe the people outside are new people. If G-d created new people though, it would probably be like Adam falling from Eden all over again.

I can't think of any other sensible option. At first I thought maybe survivors, but that would be impossible for at least three reasons.

1. Judgement Day
2. Everyone in the Book of Life goes to the Holy City, those not in it go to the Lake of Fire.
3. This may not even be the same planet, if the new earth bit is literal.

If it is a different world, one without an ocean as the text says, maybe there are people already there when the Holy City descends upon it.

For me the falling idea makes intuitively the most sense though.

Its not the only mystery in the Bible that is unanswered, but I think both you and I will find out one day what the definitive answers are to those questions. Until then we really don't know.