Problems of a moneyless society, Human Will, Individual Interests and Motivation

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread, so Mods, you know what to do....

The Venus project and its idea of a resource based economy could be a step forward in social evolution. But I have a few problems with some of their arguments, like the idea that law is a byproduct of money.

In a society where money determines status, lifestyle and defines you as a person, you have to be blind to not see that injustice is a factor of everyday life, where you are judged upon your personal wealth. Those who are rich, will get an exclusive education open to those who can afford it, whilst others who dwell in poverty are stuck in a social hole with no escape rope. Those who are elected and to whom we transfer our sovereign power live for and by money, and depend on the economy to rule over the people : if your car is not insured, then you are at fault. If you can't afford healthcare, you will be left behind. If you try to get what the wealthy have, you will be pushed back into your hole.

In a society where money separates the elite from the rest of the people, undivided and assimilated into an amorphous and united mass of drowned voices, and where '' sovereign '' states are born and sustained through exports and imports, something is wrong. If sovereignty is kept alive by money and economic status, then our power is simply defined by money and currency.
In a society where money dominates and preoccupies everybody's lifestyles, no two persons are equal, and never will be.

→ Money is Motivation

But in a world that lives off a resource-based economy, the dream would be that everybody's hopes and aspirations are reachable and could become reality ( and not an illusion created by money). But society is made up of human beings, capable of thought, conscience and free will. Money, although creator of inequality and social difference, motivates the human mind and encourages one to work to earn, earn to spend, spend to own, and own to be different from the rest.
If money were to cease, where would the individual gain exist through exchanges made with other persons ? We all have different states of mind, and some would want more resources than others. Some would keep on wanting more, to then rise above the rest. As history shows us, the option to have and to own has consequences on an international level : for example, before the french revolution, those who worked along the King as councilors and chancellors would start making their post hereditary, and kept their job in the family. More and more public jobs were made hereditary, and as a result, society was turned upside down as the King could no longer control the actions of those who gained more and more independence, a major factor in the uprising of the french population and of course the french revolution.
The right to possess motivates people to work and save up money. What would happen if money disappeared, only to be based on resources where some would possess more than others ?

→ Ubi Societas Ibi Jus

Where there's Society, there's law. The Venus Project purports that money is a major factor in legislation creation, and law-making. Without money, law is rendered unnecessary and pointless, as it is a system regulated for and by money. This is false. For example, if a hundred people were shipwrecked on an island in the pacific, and decided to live together, social rules are fundamental to ensure the survival of this societal structure, money or no money. Human Will is without limits, and Law regulates and condemns those who don't conform to society's rules. In Civil law for example, if a person X causes damages to person Y, person X would be obliged to pay a sum of money to person Y as compensation : this is not at all proof that money is the reason for law, but that in a society that requires justice and satisfaction for everyone, money is used to compensate the other.

[edit on 27/6/2010 by Unium]

[edit on 27/6/2010 by Unium]

Continued from OP....


In a resource-based economy, person X wouldn't pay a sum of money to person Y to compensate for the damages, but would pay them in a different form, with resources for example, or manual labour. It is natural that if someone does something terrible and against society's regulations, one would feel that that person should be punished and be made to pay for his actions ( no pun intended).
If someone, filled with rage, decided to murder another human being, money isn't a factor that intervenes : one would wish for that someone to pay and be locked up in a prison or penitentiary.
If law didn't exist, nothing would be controlled or regulated, and contrary to the belief that this would promote social, individual and spiritual growth, it would create chaos, crime-filled streets, and the destruction of any given society. Money can be a considered as compensation for those who exercise social Justice or that work in the Justice system ( just like any other job), but in no way is money the reason for the existence of Law.

Firstly before a real discussion of this subject can be conducted at length you have to do one thing.

Take a step back, and release your conditioning. While a good bit of your arguement is true much of it is tainted by being indoctinated into this system from birth.

Sure money is motiviation to some but these are usually not the most creative and intelligent people among us. Just the most ruthless. You have lower middle class guys that work 10-12-14 hour days to get ahead and get a house. You even have some that go to school later and leverage their life on loans just to obtain what the rich were given from birth. Often these people have moral compasses and are unwilling to do the cutthroat dirty work necessaery to really get ahead in the business world. The lying, cheating, stealing, firing all go to people willing to become the "company" man. The ones that dont languish in a job they hate just to pay bills. The best of these people are usually creative and intelligent but never make it to the levels of upper management because they are unwilling to bend to evil. To them money is not a motivator past basic needs. The same basic needs that would be provided in a resource based economy.

Money kills innovation

As well as creativity. Honestly wed be living like star trek right now but the people who holds the billions want any and all technology suppressed so the can remain in their old holding patterns making money. It started with Tesla and will never end until money is abolished.

Often people are so indoctrinated into this system that they no longer remember what it was like to dream. The value of an idea is only based on the money you can put behind it, therefore the best usually gets left far behind in shady deals and warped practices, that protect industries that should have been left behind long ago.

You tell me why a 1989 toyota corolla gets the same gas mileage as a 2009. Money plain and simple.

Many public jobs are still made hereditary, instead of kings and queens we have the bushes, rothschilds, etc. nothing has really changed in that respect and the ones who do get postions of influence outside the family are on game plan with the rest of em, otherwise they are discredited and dismissed. It takes multiple millions of dollars to win a mayoral election in a somewhat large city, these people dont get in without protecting the interests of the rich who come first always.

"If law didn't exist, nothing would be controlled or regulated, and contrary to the belief that this would promote social, individual and spiritual growth, it would create chaos, crime-filled streets, and the destruction of any given society. Money can be a considered as compensation for those who exercise social Justice or that work in the Justice system ( just like any other job), but in no way is money the reason for the existence of Law."

Quotes such as this belie your understanding of human nature. Human nature is not based on greed. It is not based on hoarding and overconsumption these things are programed by society. Animals in nature do not live this way and neither would we if society did not demand it. Scarcity is a fictional concept created for the fostering of Competition, which keeps the wealth at the top of the pyramid while the rest fight it out for the scraps, as they tell you it can be you too. You can be a heartless rich bastard, then youve won, you are a success, but how does that help social, individual, or spiritual growth? The truth is it doesn't and never has.I can name countless societies around the globe that operate without real moeny and are they all killing eachother and running rampant. NO. The ones that are do so for our corporate interests in their resources once they catch the money disease.

And even if you think everything Im saying is bs, its obvious this system isnt working, why not try something else? Because people are too scared to try.So ill leave you with this; Even Jesus beat up the money changers, he knew where the concentration of evil was.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by ISHAMAGI]

Wow. Didn't know anything about the Venus project. Very informative.

Can't comment on the resource-based part because I don't know enough about it. But I'll take a stab at motivation.

You know, reading this post reminded me of Robert Heinlein's first novel. It's called For Us the Living. He wrote it in 1938, and it was published posthumously. If you you haven't run across this one it's very worth a read. It sort of freaked me out, actually.

Heinlein spoke of almost this very thing. He also saw perpetual war (long before Eisenhauer's famous Military Industrial Complex speech), the downfall of America, and its recovery in a country that went into isolationism to heal and reset it's priorities as the same perpetual war raged on, with them never getting the truth about it.

Anyway, I digress. This book got me thinking that there are different ways to motivate people in a society. In it, they didn't use money. Every citizen got the bare basics to live...enough to actually live quite comfortably on, not at the very edge of abject poverty as these types of programs are wont to do. It wasn't all that expensive either. Not once they stopped spending on war (okay I don't remember if that was really in there!)

To get more than this minimum, more clothes, more wine, a bigger dwelling, they had the choice to work. Many more chose to work that didn't. Because they wanted to...at jobs they loved...sometimes for pay and sometimes for free. People began to value family more and the arts more. They actually got paid for the arts as if it were important. They taught and protected because they wanted to, not because they had to to eat. That's basically it, although there was one scary part too. I won't lie.

This makes sense to me. I think human will find its way this way, maybe even more so when it's not shackled by poverty or the daily grind at something they grow to hate. Maybe resetting our priorities away from money wouldn't be a bad thing. Look where it's gotten us today.

Also, many theorize that money is not really a motivator for humans. That this is a fallacy, as I recall (good old Maslow). I guess you need to look only to yourself to decide. Also, other things, such as coercion, self-control, love, and esteem can be just as powerful as motivators.

As for status? Well, we're the ones who allow money to determine that. But does it have to? Why? See, we do this to ourselves and allow others to do it to us. We choose it either way. We choose to not be happy with what we have and want more. I think a lot of people are currently realizing what enough is and what's important to them. Losing all your "stuff" as George Carlin called it, is scarier before it happens.

Think about this. You get a raise. You come out of your bosses office elated. This is so much more than you ever dreamed you'd be making at your age. You can pay off your student loan and take a vacation now, and put a good chunk down on a house. Life is good. Then Sally, a work friend of yours comes out of the bosses office. You ask if she got a raise too. She says yes! I'm making $60K now! You maintain your smile, but your insides drop. That's $5K more than you got. You fume and you steam, and you go home and kick things. A black cloud hangs over you for days. You run 100 scenarios through your mind about how your better than Sally and you should have gotten more. And for the rest of the time you work together, seeing Sally triggers those same emotions in you.

What changed?


[edit on 27-6-2010 by ~Lucidity]

And even if you think everything Im saying is bs, its obvious this system isnt working

On the contrary, what you say makes perfect sense, and thank you for the informative reply !

Money does kill innovation, but what would motivate us if money didn't exist ? People find holes in the market to create, invent then patent certain things to earn money. Some of those inventions make life a lot easier, like innovation in the telecommunications and automobile industry, but are also made to satisfy the large financial interests of the creator.

It takes multiple millions of dollars to win a mayoral election in a somewhat large city, these people dont get in without protecting the interests of the rich who come first always.

Very true, If money disappeared, we'd be sure that these people generally want to represent the people and defend our rights, and if they won, their legitimacy would be founded on public confidence. But sadly, only a few truly believe in getting their hands on power to truly change things that are wrong in our society ( on an off note, this reminds me of a question in my sociology exam : '' Can politics be considered as a job like any other ? '' ).

Personaly, the idea of no more money and a resource based economy seems more and more like a utopian vision, as a transition into such a society would require decades of global economic talks, changes, and then elimination of money.

I guess we can dream.

Peace !

Did you just reply to yourself? I'm so confused

Edit: Never mind, there seems to be some sort of whack delay. Carry on!

[edit on 27-6-2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by ~Lucidity

You know, reading this post reminded me of Robert Heinlein's first novel. It's called For Us the Living. He wrote it in 1938, and it was published posthumously. If you you haven't run across this one it's very worth a read. It sort of freaked me out, actually.

Can't say i've heard of it, I'll have to look it up !

Also, other things, such as coercion, self-control, love, and esteem can be just as powerful as motivators.

Good point ! I guess in a society where governments are at the top of the corporate pyramid, the only coercion is financial in nature, and is exercised at the expense of our basic rights and liberties.

As for status? Well, we're the ones who allow money to determine that. But does it have to? Why? See, we do this to ourselves and allow others to do it to us.

Another interesting idea ; I can remember in History of Law classes, we talked about how if one worked alongside the King, they would be immensely repsected by others. And then they wanted to be paid more and more.... and more and more... Then the sole concept of being respected by others was payable, and open to those who were wealthy enough to afford a '' social status ''.

Ps : The sally story made me chuckle ! ( if that was me, sally would so have her head down the toilet whilst i flushed it =) Notice how money has influenced me and is giving me dark and evil ideas.... ! )

Peace !

reply to post by Unium

If money were to cease, where would the individual gain
exist through exchanges made with other persons ?

Money is one possible motivator. It is not the only motivator. Human interaction will continue whether or not money exists as a motivator to encourage it.

What is it you're afraid will go away without money as an incentive? And whatever it is...if people only do it so they can get money...presumably it's not something they want to do. So why is it desireable to motivate people to do it?

some would want more resources than others. Some would keep on wanting more, to then rise above the rest.

How many people want to have more air than their neighbor? Do you see people hoarding air? No? Why not?

"Wanting more" is a reaction some people have to conditions of scarcity. If resources are scarce, you may see the behaviors you describe. If they are not scarce, you won't.

Human interaction will continue whether or not money exists as a motivator to encourage it.

It's not so much Human interaction as in talking or whatnot that I'm targeting, more when there is a material exhange that benefits each person. I think it was Aristotle that theorized that when there's an exchange, there has to be an exhange in interest/sense of gain aswell. ( I think it was Aristotle, if only I had listened in Philosophy Class ! )

"Wanting more" is a reaction some people have to conditions of scarcity.

Interesting ; but is it always scarcity ? The fact that people possess more than others, be that knowledge or material things, would make them feel somewhat '' superior '' to others. Interesting thought though. Reminds of a quote in relation to communism : '' Some are more equal than others ''.

Peace !



[edit on 27/6/2010 by Unium]

reply to post by Unium

It's not so much Human interaction as in
talking or whatnot that I'm targeting, more
when there is a material exhange that benefits
each person.

And why must there be a material exchange resulting in benefit? You didn't answer my question. Again: What is it you're afraid will go away without money as an incentive?

If people exchange thoughts and ideas instead of food and clothes, why is that bad? If money went away as an incentive...what is it we would lose that's important to you that we keep?

The fact that people possess more than others, be that knowledge or
material things, would make them feel somewhat '' superior '' to others.

Why is this a desireable goal? Why is it a good thing to create a system such that people get to feel superior to others? If that's your goal, then yes...money is a effective way to accomplish it.

But wouldn't it be a much nicer world if we designed a system to live in with the goal of having an easy, comfortable life for everyone?

I personally feel a resource based system is the fairest system. Even the creator of the Venus project admits there is no perfect system, there is no last frontier; every thing is open to improvement. I like this idea.
I can see how if we set this up from the begginning how it would work beautifully.
Money is not motivation for me. I just find myself trying to play the game and failing.I don't care about maiking 40K or above; I just want enough to live a comfortable lifestyle. I would just want a 2 bedroom townhouse or condo; no yard work to do there; with a basement for protection for weather.
I have everything materially that I need. I just find it harder and harder to keep my lifestyle. That is what is wrong with the monterial system is that as years go it gets more and more expensive.
I tried to apply for habitat for humanity. I even was ok with putting in a lot of work to have my own home. They told me I was "too low income". What is too low income. I tried to get into some low income housing; once again I was too low income. I make around minium wage so this means everyone who makes around the same amount are also "too low income". After my lease is up I have to move into public housing due to rents getting ridculously high in my area.
In a monterial system; genterfication is perfectly ok. I am sure everyone knows what that is but if not I will provide a definition. "the buying and renovation of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by upper- or middle-income families or individuals, thus improving property values but often displacing low-income families and small businesses."(dictionary.reference.com...)
This area is also trying to price out low income people to the more urban dangerous areas. I spoke with an anonymous source; (she said I could paraphrase but does not want to get in trouble); she said that landlords do not want low income people in this area and are working to make it more upper middle class like overland park. Overland Park Ks is an area where there a lot of upper middle class to rich. She stated that landlords are directly competing with this area. This is coming from an inside source at a rental company. Oh and by the way the richer areas get the good deals. If I live in Overland Park I could get basic cable for$7; I would pay $20 here. It seems like society is catering more and more to the well off. There are building more LUXERY apartments and less low income apartments!
A lot of things are done in the name of money. Wars, crimes, discrimination and even being turned away from private hospitals or churches. Some Jewish temples recquire you to pay so much money per year to attend.
I know money is just the vehicle for greed and discrimination but if we could get rid of it then it would even out many inequalities.
There are few tweeks that I would like to see in a resource based economy. A committee who oversees thing; not government just a comitee, some laws and concequences for crime in some form, and incentative. Incentative does not mean money. I think an incentative would be that everyone works 20 hours per work and contributes back into society. We all get equal but different things. For example if I wanted a 32" Tv I can get it but someone else may want a 42" TV. There would be some limits so people don't just go crazy.
We have enough resources to provide without money we just have to kno w how to use it.
If we have to use money we need to make it go farther. Lower prices and base bills off people's income. Right now I am looking for a good working system to write a book and hope that somehow it makes a difference in society some day. Of course I may never get published and I hate pushing things on people but I will continue to speak my voice, give ideas and continue the conversation of a substainable society.
By the way anything can become for sale in a monterial system; as jobs get scrace I can see jobs being sold. They sell you water which used to be free so why not a tax on air. Anything is up for grabs.

[edit on 27-6-2010 by dreamseeker]

[edit on 27-6-2010 by dreamseeker]

I just thought of something how would one start up a resource based economy. You can't start it on money really because it would not be as pure if you started that way.
In it's purest form a resource based society would be started by donations of land, time, and resources.
If we lived in a more coperative society this would be so easy. I would just ask for donations from businesses and the government as they hold most of the resources.
That is something I want to be part of a coperative society where everyone works together to build and maintian a good lifestyle for all.

What is it you're afraid will go away without money as an incentive?

Some would still exchange, but others take money as an incentive ; result = no money, no incentive, so exchange. Isolation. Everyone fends for themselves.

Why is it a good thing to create a system such that people get to feel superior to others?

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but that it's more a natural human occurence to some to feel better than others when they possess things that others don't.

But wouldn't it be a much nicer world if we designed a system to live in with the goal of having an easy, comfortable life for everyone?

It certainly would =/ !!

Peace!

reply to post by dreamseeker

I just thought of something how would one start up a resource based economy. You can't start it on money really because it would not be as pure if you started that way.

Exactly, the transition period seems the most fuzzy. According to the Venus Project website ( if i can remember correctly) after enough people are gathered together we have to start farming/growing our own veggies. Argh', I think i might just dismiss the entire idea of a RBE, unless some global economic collapse happens and people run in the streets burning 20 euro notes

That is something I want to be part of a coperative society where everyone works together to build and maintian a good lifestyle for all.

I think everyone wants to be part of that ! Lol.

Peace !

It all ready exists it's called the Mennonites it's the closest society that lives in a manner that you are talking about. If you could replicate the same thing with out the religion part it would be a good model with a few changes.

and the system gets me again. I just got a call from my best buy credit card. I just made my minuim payment but now they want $23 extra. They are now attaching late fees to my account even though I paid! I asked them if I could change my billing date; but no they say Obama won't allow it? Some person from India telling me that my president won't allow billing dates change since when.
Now I have no power to fight this. I signed up for a NO interest account purchased 3 items on it and have been paying on it for months now. It was No interest for 2 years. They have added interest to the no interest.
In a moneterial system they can charge whatever BS charge they want. The Companies OWN you. They sent me the wrong product and won't even allow me to send it back.
I am SO sick of these darn companies. You play by the rules but they still stick it you!
Funny how I NEVER added anything new in 4 months now so you would expect my minuim payment to go down. It goes up!I never would have done this if I thought I would be paying this much in interest! I am paying almost $10 on the interest a NO interest account. How does that make any sense? It is MADNESS!
Believe me if a company could find a way to bill me for paying my bill they would; wait a minute they have found a way. IF you pay with a live agent it is $5. I always ask for the automated system but the automated system rarely works sending you back to the live rep.
I want out of this craziness!

and no matter how good of a person you are; you are just money, Even if you hire someone else to come clean your apartment after you moved out so you don't fees. You get a move out bill. I got a move out bill for my last apartment because merry maids did a bad job.
It flooded so I could not go see the job they did. I handed in my keys prior to that due to potentail flooding issues.
I am tired of everyone wanting my money. Something either breaks down or suddenly a bill is higher out of the blue with no easy answers.

There is a single fix for all of the problems you describe that seem innate in a money-less society. If you work from a point of love and compassion, you eliminate the need for compensation, etc. Why do we need the legal system? That works from and toward a position of ethics/morality/superiority that is pure illusion. Accidents happen. Life happens. It's what you do and what you make of it that matters. No one should lord over another. Personal responsibility should suffice.

I cannot really explain my vision of a love-based society. You will have to find those details in your own heart. I have spent a great deal of time considering the finer points of this and am now taking measures to begin constructing my love-based world. The web has its first threads. Please do feel free to add to it. Weave your webs alongside mine and we can construct a new world. You only need to leave the old behind. Focus on the new, clean, pure world ahead. Do it with love.

I have often thought if we had human compassion and love for one another so much would change. There would be no wars,crimes and no need for division of classes; meaning no money.
I would like to know more about your ideas.

I learned about the Venus project a few months ago and I think it sounds wonderful. I'd be fully supportive of something like this. The only issue that I see is how to decide where people get to live. Wouldn't most people want to live in a beautiful (say tropical/beach/mountain-like) setting? I'm just not sure how that would be decided if everyone was equal. I feel like there might be fighting for the best land, fertile soil, etc... or am I missing something?