Question about a book im trying to read, Occult philosophy

I am on chapter 12 in book 1 and i am having difficulty translating it.

It seems to discuss how the horoscope influences peoples destinies, but i am unsure.

If someone could give me their opinion i would greatly appreciate it.

It is on page 37, ISBN 978-0-87542-832-1

Here is the complete text


Chap. xii. How it is that particular Vertues are infused into particular Individuals, even of the same Species.

There are also in many Individuals, or particular things, peculiar gifts, as wonderfull, as in the species, and these also are from the figure, and situation of Celestiall Stars. For every Individuall, when it begins to be under a determined Horoscope, and Celestiall Constellation, Contracts together with its essence a certain wonderfull vertue both of doing, and suffering something that is remarkable, even besides that which it receives from its species, and this it doth partly by the influence of the Heaven, and partly through that obedientialness of the matter of things to be generated, to the Soul of the World, which obedientialness indeed is such as that of our bodies to our souls. For we perceive that there is this in us, that according to our conceptions of things, our bodies are moved, and that cheerfully, as when we are afraid of, or fly from any thing. So many times when the Celestiall souls conceive several things, then the matter is moved obedientially to it: Also in Nature there appear divers prodigies, by reason of the imagination of superiour motions. So also they conceive, & imagine divers vertues, not only things naturall, but also sometimes things artificial, and this especially if the Soul of the operator be inclined towards the same. Whence Avicen saith, that whatsoever things are done here, must have been before in the motions, and conceptions of the Stars, and Orbes. So in things, various effects, inclinations, and dispositions are occasioned not only from the matter variously disposed, as many suppose, but from a various influence, and diverse form; not truly with a specifical difference, but peculiar, and proper. And the degrees of these are variously distributed by the first Cause of all things, God himself, who being unchangeable, distributes to every one as he pleaseth, with whom notwithstanding second Causes, Angelical and Celestial, cooperate, disposing of the Corporeal matter, and other things that are committed to them. All vertues therefore are infused by God, through the Soul of the World, yet by a particular power of resemblances, and intelligences over-ruling them, and concourse of the rayes, and aspects of the Stars in a certain peculiar harmonious consent.


[edit on 24-6-2010 by Cerebrus]

Doth? Who uses doth when trying to actually explain something?

The problem with esoteric subjects is that a lot of greenhorns think that people have to sound like the King James Version of the Bible when they scribble down their big truths. All that really happens is that no one ever really "gets" what these snake oil peddlers are supposedly trying to explain. This ends up going two ways - (1) the "teacher" becomes elevated in the minds of his/her students due to the fact that none of them have a clue as to what they honestly believe they're supposed to understand or (2) Someone calls the "teacher" on it and everyone walks away laughing, because he/she got busted being purposely impenetrable and with nothing earth-shattering to offer in the way of actual information.

If you can't explain it in 21st century terms, then you've got nothing to offer.

You misunderstand my post dude, Big time
I was providing the exact chapter so others could read it and give me their opinions as to what he is saying.
I wanted to keep his words as true as possible, I have no idea what it is implying or saying, that is why i made this post.

So i could ask someone, Not have someone shoot me down on a street corner because they failed to read the first part of the post,

"I am on chapter 12 in book 1 and i am having difficulty translating it.

It seems to discuss how the horoscope influences peoples destinies, but i am unsure.

If someone could give me their opinion i would greatly appreciate it.

It is on page 37, ISBN 978-0-87542-832-1

HERE IS THE COMPLETE TEXT"

I do not know of any way to condense it, i apologize if it inconveniences you.
It is the best i have to work with.

So hopefully you understand my confusion and annoyance as well.

The thing to do with this kind of seventeenth century language is to break it down, patiently.E.g

There are also in many Individuals, or particular things, peculiar gifts, as wonderfull, as in the species, and these also are from the figure, and situation of Celestiall Stars.

There are peculiar gifts in many individuals. These are as wonderful as the gifts that are in the whole species. These gifts come [partly] from the shape [figure] and partly from the location [situation] of the celestial stars.

See what I mean? Take the unfashionably long sentences, and break them down.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by Cerebrus
every Individuall, when it begins to be under a determined Horoscope, and Celestiall Constellation, Contracts together with its essence a certain wonderfull vertue both of doing, and suffering something that is remarkable, even besides that which it receives from its species, and this it doth partly by the influence of the Heaven, and partly through that obedientialness of the matter of things to be generated, to the Soul of the World, which obedientialness indeed is such as that of our bodies to our souls.

Something happens when an individual begins to be under the control of a determined horoscope and constellation.
Apart from the essence which the individual has already got- the individual gains a certain wonderful ability to do remarkable things, and the ability to experience remarkable things-
This is in addition to what it has from membership of its species-
The ability comes partly from the influence of the heavens-
And partly from the fact that all created [generated] things are obedient to the Soul of the world. This obedience resembles the kind of obedience our own bodies have to our own souls.

I should point out that I don't actually believe in this stuff.
But the compulsion to explain things is hereditary in my bloodline.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Ok, i get it now, it seems to be discussing Astrology and how it affects each person, Am i right?

P.S. So what kind of words are these, Synonyms?

I am not a full believer in it either, One day i hope to write a sort of commentary on the major occult texts,
Occult philosophy
Golden dawn
Key of solomon
Ordo templi orientis
ETC.

reply to post by Cerebrus


I was going to offer my assistance, but DISERAELI did a darn good job at what I was going to explain! Patience is definitely the key to understanding. If you have a hard time with the language, then break it down sentence by sentence. I understand to do that will take great time with this book, as I own it myself. But your pretty right on. It is about the Planets and Constellations and how they each have an influence on not only us, but all species of the earth, including creative and destructive cycles.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Enigami]

Originally posted by Cerebrus


P.S. So what kind of words are these, Synonyms?

Synonyms are different words which have the same meaning. My dictionary gives "kill" and "slay" as examples.
There was a short delay in responding, because AOL decided to kick me off-line for some reason.

Yes, now i am getting the hang of it, thank you soo much DISRAELI
You have brought new life into my research.

Finally i can get back on the road to total enlightenment, of occult theory of course.

I should point out an interesting occurrence on chapter 1,

If you draw 3 circles to represent the three parts of the world(Elementary, Celestial, Intellectual), you get a symbol in the center which is a Triquetra.

Interesting isnt it.

Cerebrus,

Just a quick bit of advice. Though I am not familiar with the specific book you are reading, most genuine occult texts, especially from before this century, are encoded in one way or another. You can do a bit of web research and learn of some of the different ways this was done.

Historians differ upon why this was done but the most rational conclusion is that the writers wanted to avoid persecution from the Church.

reply to post by Hefficide


Actually i did some research on 10-15 century ciphers and i discovered that apparently the occult philosophy book may not contain any kind of a cipher, but rather steeped in repetitiveness and words with obscure meaning.

He uses uncommon words that did not have the meaning they have today, or atleast not to most people.

Heinrich Agrippa is an interesting fellow.

I'm of the opinion that no knowledge gained through reading is wasted, but I'd be very hesitant about trying out any of his rituals.

Some say Agrippa was the inspiratioun for the classic "Dr. Faust."

Originally posted by Cerebrus
I am not a full believer in it either, One day i hope to write a sort of commentary on the major occult texts,
Occult philosophy
Golden dawn
Key of solomon
Ordo templi orientis
ETC.

You know the modern OTO is linked with pedophiles and child molesters.. if you listen to the band Coil (heavily connected with the OTO), it's full of pedophile stuff. Not necessarily the peple you want to hang out and mess with.

Golden Dawn on the other hand.. i recommend those audio CDs released by New Falcon, "Golden Dawn audios vol. 1-3" read by Israel Regardie. Just be careful with those, they're basically a westernized version of yoga (in many ways), heavy stuff.

I won't go into detail here, listen to your self (if you're able to find them).

Originally posted by Cerebrus
You misunderstand my post dude, Big time
I was providing the exact chapter so others could read it and give me their opinions as to what he is saying.
I wanted to keep his words as true as possible, I have no idea what it is implying or saying, that is why i made this post.

So i could ask someone, Not have someone shoot me down on a street corner because they failed to read the first part of the post,

"I am on chapter 12 in book 1 and i am having difficulty translating it.

It seems to discuss how the horoscope influences peoples destinies, but i am unsure.

If someone could give me their opinion i would greatly appreciate it.

It is on page 37, ISBN 978-0-87542-832-1

HERE IS THE COMPLETE TEXT"

I do not know of any way to condense it, i apologize if it inconveniences you.
It is the best i have to work with.

So hopefully you understand my confusion and annoyance as well.

I've been deeply involved in the occult for over 40 years, and I have my own annoyances with my fellow initiates. This book is old, and while it may have been instrumental in preserving ancient notions (which is a good thing), devotion to it, and others like it, has stunted the progressive development of our understanding of how to apply these ancient notions to our progressively developing knowledge of what the occult actually seeks to explain - the human being's true place in physical existence.

I probably should have just kept on going when I saw this thread. My apologies.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by NorEaster]

Sounds like your reading the Three Books of Occult Philosophy by Henry Cornelius Agrippa. I also suspect the Donald Tyson version. It is important that it is read in accordance to the historical paradigm of its time.... there were considerable schools of western esoteric thought at the time from the Renaissance, Neoplatonism and Western Kabbalah as well as the history of ideas and science of the period. To Read it out of context in the so-called 21st century mind-set is to do it injustice - many have plagiarised from it. Read about the man and the period to help understand its contextual meanings..... the book has been called 'a neoplatonic credo'; the influence of Ficino and Pico is evident, as well as less famous authors such as Lazzarelli.It is more of an encyclopaedic review than a treatise with a profound dependence on his predecessors such a Reuchlin. His aim is 'to restore magic to its former state of the purest kind of religion' So persevere and meditate.

Agrippa is a bit tough to read, mainly because his writtings are so old and follow an older literary structure. The only complaints I'd have about Agrippa is that you sometimes need a good foundation in Occult thoery and knowledge to really get anything out of his writting, that and he often doesn't really tell you much of anything. It's pretty much just Occult "Philosophy" and not occult practice.

Basically what he's saying in this passage is that people are deeply connected to the stars and planets and they have a very strong influence on our lives. He likens the relaitonship to that of the soul and the corporeal body. I'm assuming that by soul he also meant the mind as he says that when the soul wants to perform a certain action the body responds obediently.

If you want to think of it in Western Occult terms he's really relating the concept to the hermetic axiom "As above, so below" in the sense that as the celestial bodies move, so does it effect us here on Earth.

Unfortunatly, I don't think you're going to learn anything more from this passage then you probably have already assumed. If you're interested in occut study there are a great many authors who include a wealth of knowledge in each passage and, though still rather old, are infinitly more readable than Agrippa.

Despite what others say I would recommend authors related to the original Golden Dawn such as Paul Foster Case, Dion Fortune, Crowley, Regardie, etc

Originally posted by Tryptych

Originally posted by Cerebrus
I am not a full believer in it either, One day i hope to write a sort of commentary on the major occult texts,
Occult philosophy
Golden dawn
Key of solomon
Ordo templi orientis
ETC.

You know the modern OTO is linked with pedophiles and child molesters.. if you listen to the band Coil (heavily connected with the OTO), it's full of pedophile stuff. Not necessarily the peple you want to hang out and mess with.

Golden Dawn on the other hand.. i recommend those audio CDs released by New Falcon, "Golden Dawn audios vol. 1-3" read by Israel Regardie. Just be careful with those, they're basically a westernized version of yoga (in many ways), heavy stuff.

I won't go into detail here, listen to your self (if you're able to find them).

I did not know about the oto being pedophiles, i guess i will just stick to wikipedia for knowledge of them. Thank you very much for the advice about the golden dawn, i have always been curious about their teachings, i plan on buying their complete initiation book from amazon. I will also check into the audio cds. Just incase you are not aware or may have forgotten, i am just a researcher, i have no desire to have myself get raped by demons.

reply to post by NorEaster


Its ok dude, i kinda snapped at you, i can get kind of tempermental sometimes.
Its just that i get so wrapped up in what i am doing that i tend to get upset when i have to repeat myself.

Peace!