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Will a truly substainable society ever exist?

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posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 02:33 PM
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I have been thinking long and hard about all the different systems out there. I can't think of even one that equalizes out things for the poor. I had some ideas in my head that could really work then I am called a socialist? (not by people on here yet)
I don't believe my ideas are socialism. I believe they may be brand new ideas based off a few things I have seen. This what my ideas are based off of:
Another idea is the percentage forumala. There should be set formulas based on a person’s income. Why should WE have to qualify to their standards it should be the other way around. I realize this leaves the rich paying more but since they have more money it starts to even things out.
Basically all housing would be 10 – 30% of a person’s income. I will provide some examples of how this will work:
Income Level:
Under $1,000 per month 10% of income goes towards housing
$1,000 -$2000 per month 20%
$2,000+ per month 30%
It would max out at 30%. This would mean that all housing would be available to all income levels; none of the separation of poor and rich. A person could have as many bedrooms as they want paying only $25 more per bedroom not to exceed 30%. Of course different things would be based upon different percentages for example utilities would be only 10% of a person’s income, a car payment 5% and health insurance 2%. I know we can’t have everything based on income because that would definitely cause a hold up at the stores.
Researchers and the government would look at the incomes across America and determine a reasonable low wage to base prices off of. For example; food could be based upon what a person might get in food stamps at $600 per month. A person might get $200 per month on food stamps. All store brand prices must be in line with those prices. While name brand products could be a little more but cannot be more than say 20% of the store brand prices.
This is it in a nut shell. This will work; because captilism does not; in fact please give me the name of any economic system that really works?
You probably can’t because there is no perfect system or utopia.
We have to find what is best for the weakest.
Have you ever the saying that a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. Well by pulling the weakest up we are strengthening our society. We are creating a world where we can be substainable; truly. What would happen if EVERYONE had more money? Don’t you think they would spend it more and put back into society?
This is not tryanny this is fairness. Why should one group of people suffer.
Have you heard the labor of slaves for the profit of kings? Well this is what captilism is. I welcome a new era of thinking.
I want to explore this idea and modify it. I know there is not much I can really do but I was thinking of writing a fiction novel based upon these ideas and just hope to inspire others someday.
I believe we all have one issue that we are here on this earth to work on. I believe mine is poverty. This seems like my mission for this lifetime at least.
I really just want thoughts and ideas. I am not looking for others to promote this idea but I really want to know how close I am to finding a system that works.
I want to hear realy reasons why this would work and why it might not work.
No insults or prejudgements please.
I am really sick of seeing a society that really values the poor so little. I have more about my ideas. Is this really socialism if so where did I come up with it and if it is not then what is it.
I would also like some links to what type of economic system this is considered. If this is something has been tried before I want to research what it worked or did not work. I know I can't change soceity by myself but if you have ever seen lady in the water you will understand where I am coming from.
I believe that one idea can inspire someone else to something greater; pherhaps that is why writer's write?

[edit on 23-6-2010 by dreamseeker]




posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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also if you would like to share your ideas on to make a truly substainable society for everyone not just the rich I would like to hear about it.



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 02:57 PM
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If you are looking for onionskin on whether or not there iwll ever be a fully sustainable society, I'd have to say that it is a necessity and thus it WILL happen. Just when it will happen, no one is for certain, but we have definitely gone past the breaking point.

I for one am for a full and comprehensive solution as outlined by the Venus Project, called a Resource Based Society.

I would highly recommend you check out my signature for more details as well watching the films I linked and the answers given to the comments for more details.



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 03:05 PM
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It has happened in the past, it will happen again.
It will not be anything like what we see or participate in currently.
It will be tribal in nature.
This empire will fall to the tribes.



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 03:09 PM
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Before the tax man came along the family farm was very sustainable. A couple acres of crops, a hog or two, some goats and hard work and they were set with everything they'd ever need right there.

Then somebody thought they should be forced to give a portion of the fruit of their labor to somebody else. Then somebody thought it wasnt fair they had dirt to plant in and threatened to take it all away if they didnt pay.

Then we all got 9-5's and bought condo's and consumed toys and birthed debt until it came time to die.



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by dreamseeker
 


You're "seeking dreams", DreamSeeker.


Seriously. If there was enough housing for everyone, and nobody had to work. Then we wouldn't need money.



I don't believe my ideas are socialism. I believe they may be brand new ideas based off a few things I have seen.


Nothing new will ever come out. We've had cities for 8,000-10,000 years. We've had collective groups for nearly 40,000 years.

This isn't the best system, but it's what we've got. It sure beats living in medieval times. Good luck having things fair then.

Also, I'd like to correct you on a MASSIVE mistake you keep making. Stop talking about poor people this, poor people that, rich people this rich people that. Not all poor people are the same, not all rich people are the same.

There are 'poor' people who basically live in the wilderness, and they enjoy it. They are the freest of all of us.

There are rich people who worked hard their whole lives, and do give MUCH more than their share back to the community.

Some people are poor because they are children, or old, or handicapped. These people are otherwise known as the unfortunate, and I have no problem with helping these people (though I think there is much waste and much gets spent by government before they get helped).

Some are poor because they hate to work, and don't mind stealing from the tax payers. These are what is known as 'The Useless Eaters'.

The more 'poor' people you have, the less they'll all be able to receive. There are a few ways to fix this.

1. Deal with it.
2. Depopulation (systematic)
3. force everyone to give up everything, and have a centralized government split it evenly (USSR)
4. StarTrek technology of replicators, so nothing needs to be bought, it is just created so the all life's "basics" are free (besides the costs of the replicators).

Solution 4 is out of the question at present technology.
Solution 3 has already been tried. Government is too greedy for it to work.
Solution 2 is...well...not very popular.
Solution 1 helps no one.

That's about it.


Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Before the tax man came along the family farm was very sustainable. A couple acres of crops, a hog or two, some goats and hard work and they were set with everything they'd ever need right there.

Then somebody thought they should be forced to give a portion of the fruit of their labor to somebody else. Then somebody thought it wasnt fair they had dirt to plant in and threatened to take it all away if they didnt pay.

Then we all got 9-5's and bought condo's and consumed toys and birthed debt until it came time to die.


Also, this. But we'd have to tear down our economy by about 3000 years. I'm cool with that.

[edit on 6/23/2010 by Arcane Demesne]



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


You have to admit my system is better than the current one. It makes it were the rich pay more. I know not all poor and rich are the same but that does not matter when it comes having human compassion.
What I mean is everyone is equal and should be treated so. The rich should not be able to buy jets, and all these luxery while other suffer.
Who do you think scraficed for them to have their luxeries? With our current someone always scarfices to make someone else rich.
I am simply seeking a fair system.



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


You have to admit my system is better than the current one.


I have to do no such thing.



It makes it were the rich pay more.


People will stop striving to be rich, thus creating less revenue for the poor to receive from. It needs to be voluntary.



I know not all poor and rich are the same but that does not matter when it comes having human compassion.


Again, you cannot legislate compassion, only ask for it.



What I mean is everyone is equal and should be treated so.


That's an opinion with many facets. They may have equal rights (to the basic tenants of life, such as granted by the constitution and the bill of rights). But not every has equal intelligence, or equal moral fiber, or equal health, or equal strength, etc.

As such, if you are born weak in every field, it is up to you to find a new facet to 'make it'. You'll have the rights of the basics, but are guaranteed nothing more.



The rich should not be able to buy jets, and all these luxery while other suffer.


Then how would they get to sudden emergency meetings? Wait for commercial airliners? oh wait, that's from rich companies owning jets...can't have those either...



Who do you think scraficed for them to have their luxeries? With our current someone always scarfices to make someone else rich.


It's a trade off. At first, it is either luck, or family, or HARD work. After that, then yes, they are making money from others. BUT, those others would not find work, if the rich man had not needed services done.



I am simply seeking a fair system.


Life isn't fair. You're parents should have drilled that into your head a bit more.


[edit on 6/23/2010 by Arcane Demesne]



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


my parents were conservsatives. I do not subscribe to their way of thinking. The more I think about the more my system sounds better than any other out there.
The only people who would oppose my system are the rich.
What sort of emergency meeting would someone need to go to that recquires a jet? The govrnment already has acess to jets so I am not sure who else would need one.
I NEVER believe in any human suffering. In my system NO ONE would suffer; in the current system millions suffer. The rich would still have plenty just not so much excess that they squander it away and act like idoits with their money.


[edit on 23-6-2010 by dreamseeker]



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 08:21 PM
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Well i beieve we will. I am working on it myself. If I get motivated I may post some ideas here but right now I am not up to typing to much. I'll just say the only way it is going to happen is for people to just start doing it. The Venus project has some good ideas but overall falls to much into fantasy land IMO. To many unanswered questions on how things will get done.


I think these guys have the right idea and this is more realistic. It is open source technology and decentralization of production etc.

openfarmtech.org...


[edit on 23-6-2010 by hawkiye]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


my parents were conservsatives. I do not subscribe to their way of thinking.


It happens.



The more I think about the more my system sounds better than any other out there.


To you. Not to people who want to work hard and earn what they can to make a better life.



The only people who would oppose my system are the rich.


Again, who hires people? The rich do. No one else.




What sort of emergency meeting would someone need to go to that recquires a jet? The govrnment already has acess to jets so I am not sure who else would need one.


How about a natural disaster, like BP encountered. Pretty sure they needed to get together to try and solve problems (though in their case, probably to focus blame, but that's beside the point).

There are many more reasons a 2nd grader could think of I won't go into it.



I NEVER believe in any human suffering. In my system NO ONE would suffer; in the current system millions suffer.


Prove it with a thesis. Provide as many scenarios as you can with multiple solutions to all the problems your system may encounter.



The rich would still have plenty just not so much excess that they squander it away and act like idoits with their money.


Explain "plenty". 10% more than the average man? 100% more? 1000% more? How many jobs would you like him to create? If he had only enough to employ 5 people on your 'fair' wages, and only working a certain amount of hours a week...how would he fair against the innovations of say, China? His business would then fall flat, as products could not be made well enough, fast enough, and cheap enough to cover his over head while competing against a company that is allowed to employ more employees at lower wages, and keep more of their income for R&D and production.

I'll be waiting for the PDF. Be sure to post it in a new thread called, "The ultimate super fair economy where everyone wins!" I'd like to have a good laugh.


[edit on 6/24/2010 by Arcane Demesne]

[edit on 6/24/2010 by Arcane Demesne]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


That's pretty cool. A 'open source' device. Glad to see that is finally making it out of the software realm. I've never been a fan of copyright laws in the first place, it stifles innovation. I believe in a creator license, so people know where it originated, but to keep a particular method of achievement under wraps is beyond detrimental.

Kudos to those guys in that link. Even if it is just a brick maker, ha. It's a start.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


I am thinking of things now. I am disillusioned by the current system. Hard work DOES NOT pay off. I have worked very hard you that is how I got to the point of disillusionment. I really did not think people on ats really agreed with captilism but then again you are one person on here.
I am sick of being a slave to money. I want freedom from it. I worked 2 jobs put TOO much effort into thing yet did not get anywhere!
I do not believe you have to be on the brink of suicide to live; that's not living that is slowly dying. I wanted to live so that is whyI decided I will never again work full time. Of course that descion is sort of made for me because I have a disablity which means in order to keep my insurance.
I can prove to you that money causes stress and shortens lives. I can also prove to you that when people are paying less out in bills they are freer.
When I got on a program to help me with electrcity I was not stressed out about that bill anymore.
So you really think a life of slavery to money is best? How? For whom?
I don't believe in being rich. If I am rich I promise you I will use to better society. If I win millions of dollars ever than I will find a way to build the start of a society that I envision.
It only takes one dreamer to come up with great ideas. I know that it is unrealistic to think this is going to happen anytime soon but in my lifetime I hope people are free from money and debt.
I know I am right; I am just not sure about the form yet.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


I am thinking of things now. I am disillusioned by the current system. Hard work DOES NOT pay off.


Not with that attitude.



I have worked very hard you that is how I got to the point of disillusionment.


Luck is also a part of the equation of life.



I really did not think people on ats really agreed with captilism but then again you are one person on here.


You'll actually find that MOST people here on ATS are capitalists. Being that we think their is some grand scheme (NWO, Illuminati, etc), the less the Govt has to play with (our money), the less they can do to harm us.



I am sick of being a slave to money. I want freedom from it. I worked 2 jobs put TOO much effort into thing yet did not get anywhere!


Define anywhere. You're alive aren't you? Would you last 1000 years ago with your current disability? I seriously doubt it. I'm not being a dick, you jut need to realize that America and Capitalism is a VERY RECENT trial in human evolution. It was amazing while it lasted (1780s-1850s). 1913 was the death of true capitalism in our society, we're now on banker's payroll, and we have to pay them back for 'protection'. The Government is nothing more than a gang at this point.



I do not believe you have to be on the brink of suicide to live; that's not living that is slowly dying. I wanted to live so that is whyI decided I will never again work full time. Of course that descion is sort of made for me because I have a disablity which means in order to keep my insurance.


You're choice. Enjoy a lower standard of living. You could easily become a frontiersman and live off the land. But then you wouldn't be able to find anyone to give you the 'free' stuff you get in this capitalist society.



I can prove to you that money causes stress and shortens lives. I can also prove to you that when people are paying less out in bills they are freer.


Funny, paper money was started by the Chinese in 800CE. We've had commodity trading before that (which can be viewed as money). In fact, bartering is the first form of trade, and what money is based off of (insurance that you have wealth somewhere else, that these notes will allow you to receive at a location that accepts them). Are you saying we lived better as hunter gatherers before commodity trading became practice enabling us to form cities?!



When I got on a program to help me with electrcity I was not stressed out about that bill anymore.
So you really think a life of slavery to money is best? How? For whom?


Slavery is an attitude, not a position. You are free to stop using money anytime you want. (unless the US tries to make holding Gold illegal again. Freaking fascists. Big government is the enemy, not the solution. Are you getting this yet?!).



I don't believe in being rich. If I am rich I promise you I will use to better society. If I win millions of dollars ever than I will find a way to build the start of a society that I envision.


You would quickly grow poor. Humans are animals. All of them. They will suck you dry unless you have a system in which they equal benefit from their on greed. Greed is good in small quantities. You're greed for your life makes you want to work just enough to get food, does it not? That's how life works. There is no other way.



It only takes one dreamer to come up with great ideas. I know that it is unrealistic to think this is going to happen anytime soon but in my lifetime I hope people are free from money and debt.
I know I am right; I am just not sure about the form yet.


I agree we should be free from debt. That means we need to oust the FED, remove the IRS, stop paying Income taxes, and stop ALL welfare programs. Then there will be no debt on the large scale. That way, it is up to the individual to not go into debt. Not the job of everyone to give you aything because you don't want to work a normal job.



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
reply to post by hawkiye
 


That's pretty cool. A 'open source' device. Glad to see that is finally making it out of the software realm. I've never been a fan of copyright laws in the first place, it stifles innovation. I believe in a creator license, so people know where it originated, but to keep a particular method of achievement under wraps is beyond detrimental.

Kudos to those guys in that link. Even if it is just a brick maker, ha. It's a start.


There is more then just a brick maker, everything from computer parts to making your own car!



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 01:25 AM
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Will a truly substainable society ever exist? Yep. Learn from the old ways, basically.

As my dad said: `Take what you want but eat what you take.` (I think, I'll have to job my memory here).

In other word, take no more than necessary and return what is not needed - recycle, replant, etc.



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 01:51 AM
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What does sustainable mean? This is a world of death and rebirth. The world dies, and then it is reborn into a new world. This has happened before, and its going to happen again.



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Arcane Demesne
 


Why should a one bedroom apartment cost $600 per month. When all I have is $800 -$1,000 per month. I don't think it is fair. I want to get a 2 bedroom apartment but is too expensive.
What I really want is for things to cost less. Why is that a bad thing?
By the way I have 2 part time jobs and working on a master's in pscyhology. I still work hard but not to the point having no life.
What is a normal job by the way. With my disablity I probably could not do a "normal" job. Besides I am sick of all of the 9 to 5 BS! I am going to be free and work jobs at my own pace not some 18 year old managers pace.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by dreamseeker]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by dreamseeker]



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by onequestion
 


What I mean by substainable. Is a society that can be substianal for a long time without homeless or poor. I like the word substainable because it really shows that people can
t live if soceity does not allow them to.



posted on Jun, 26 2010 @ 10:31 AM
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Well I am a diehard socialist. However have you ever heard of a ideology called Egalitarianism, that comes pretty close i think to what you’re talking about, however i don’t think it’s ever been tried because its impossible to implement. Also pure communism i think would come close to what you’re talking about, that is to say Karl Marx ideology. Sorry if i have miss understood you, i only skimmed over the op




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