Ten Alien Encounters Debunked!

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Heating from the sun does not produce the results depicted in a number of crop circles.

I've rolled in the fields enough to know what it looks like when man, animal, machine, and water push down grass and wheat (which tend to be the favorites).

There are many that are obviously done by people. A few good people, some rope and GPS equipment can make some very elaborate designs - I'm not going to say "It's too elaborate for people to do."

However, there are certainly crop circles found in lower profile areas with plenty of anomalies. We are not talking iron filings - micronized iron particles are on the micron level. More difficult is distributing them into the soil - not just sprinkling them around.

Now, we could carry on the debate all day - but the fact of the matter is that crop circles have been documented for quite some time as a phenomena and only recently (past several decades) been popularized with the rise of the UFO craze.

UFOs got popular, then crop-circles (a prior documented phenomena) became sensationalized. As with UFO hoaxes, there came crop-circle hoaxes. Now, just as people make artwork of UFOs and aliens - people make artwork out of deforming crops, as well.

However, it doesn't mean there are not circles made without human involvement - they are simply not as frequent.

Determining 'genuine' from 'hoax' crop circles is not really all that difficult. Mechanical wear is easy to identify, as are foot-falls on bent stalks. The problem is that too many researchers want to chalk those signs up to disturbances made after formation by visitors. They also allow themselves to give an opinion when they really shouldn't - any site that has been visited by the public is really going to be sketchy to begin with, the longer it has been 'exposed' and the more people see it, the more problems you run into.

However, this whole conversation could diverge into debating ten different topics, so - I'm not really sure this should be continued here.

reply to post by kidflash2008

Thanks for that excellent post kidflash. A refreshing change from the dime-a-dozen nonsensical posts here. Bashing is the birthright of the dull and intellectually starved as they have nothing to add. There are about 10 posters who've repeated what some others have said and that is - 'copy and paste'! Oh yeah! That's absolutely brilliant! What an observation!

I agree! Most here have just repeated what one poster said on page 1. Haven't the UFO conspiracy theorists have anything worthwhile to add? Just bashing the OP for similar opinions that millions have doesn't add any weight to the 'believers' arguments. To the contrary it shows that they have nothing to counter this with. So what's new?

Wow what a poor thread...

I think that nobody needs to be a believer or a usual debunker to agree with that. The OP is asking for proves when he doesn't give us any, requesting intelligent answers when his posts are based on hearsay and official explanations, looking for counter-arguments when the thread title is fraudulently presented as the result of a legitimate study and investigation...

I'm not attracted by this thread because I'm a skeptic, or angry against it because I'm a believer, I'm just very surprised that this thread has received so many flags and stars, considering how useless it is.

ATS is a place for debate, open-mindedness, objectivity, intelligence, investigation, a place to deny ignorance. This kind of snazzy thread, served with bad faith and provocation is out of place here, it should be, at least, ignored.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Arbitrageur.....

The "Willy Willy's" could well be the cause for some crop circles.

In the main, crop circle threads tend to flatline my neurological activity.

Cheers mate
Maybe...maybe not

Just one question for you
How exactially does a cow or horse have their spinal fluid naturally decay before any flesh or muscle, or what creature would extract that fluid and for what reason. Without signs of blood or teeth may I add.
Of course I will expect a ration and believeable earth based answer.

but you seriously believe all that, thats too bad you never grew up with an imagination

[edit on 11-6-2010 by GummB]
spelling

[edit on 11-6-2010 by GummB]

Originally posted by GummB
Just one question for you. How exactially does a cow or horse have their spinal fluid naturally decay before any flesh or muscle, or what creature would extract that fluid and for what reason. Without signs of blood or teeth may I add.
Of course I will expect a ration and believeable earth based answer.

but you seriously believe all that, thats too bad you never grew up with an imagination

Oh yes! That's pretty sad! No imagination! If I had any I would have said that those cattle were eaten by those big bad aliens - the one's with the big bug eyes!! The one's who've come from some non nondescript galaxy a billion parsecs away only to taste animal blood on Earth.


[edit on 11-6-2010 by OrionHunterX]

Originally posted by OrionHunterX
reply to post by kidflash2008

 

Thanks for that excellent post kidflash. A refreshing change from the dime-a-dozen nonsensical posts here. Bashing is the birthright of the dull and intellectually starved as they have nothing to add. There are about 10 posters who've repeated what some others have said and that is - 'copy and paste'! Oh yeah! That's absolutely brilliant! What an observation!

HAHAHAHA seriously?!!!

Your original post is clearly a copy and paste from a website?!!!!!

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

The "Willy Willy's" could well be the cause for some crop circles.

Don't ya mean cock eyed bob, maybe maybe not

As for the pyramids on a side note, they dug a hole and then filled it in as it was built, shifting sands over the years in a desert exposed them, how they cut the stone to precision, and how it was transported is another issue, that's what amazes me, especially the cutting.


Wal a stonemason

Originally posted by OrionHunterX

Originally posted by GummB
Just one question for you. How exactially does a cow or horse have their spinal fluid naturally decay before any flesh or muscle, or what creature would extract that fluid and for what reason. Without signs of blood or teeth may I add.
Of course I will expect a ration and believeable earth based answer.

but you seriously believe all that, thats too bad you never grew up with an imagination

Oh yes! That's pretty sad! No imagination! If I had any I would have said that those cattle were eaten by those big bad aliens - the one's with the big bug eyes!! The one's who've come from some non nondescript galaxy a billion parsecs away only to taste animal blood on Earth.

So you can't or won't answer my question.
Why do you start a theadore if you have no intention of debate. You just attack anyone who challenges your idea, or moreso the ideas you copied and pasted here.
I want you to actually debunk these 10 encounters, and you haven't even tried.
Sorry your so offended maybe you should write books instead of blogs so you get less feedback

Edit. Sorry for cell phone quality posts

[edit on 11-6-2010 by GummB]

reply to post by OrionHunterX


OrionHunterX…..

1. Pyramids

I agree with many folks who say the current knowledge of how the Pyramids were built is based largely on conjecture. That being said, there is no reason to favor the extraterrestrial explanation over any other. At the same time, the construction of the Pyramids does demonstrate a level of knowledge and wisdom, so to speak, that seems to be far beyond what we can allow ourselves to believe the ancient Egyptians were capable of.

In other words, we can really push the proverbial "envelope" in terms of what we scientifically hypothesize the ancient Egyptians were capable of. But even then, it would be pushing it too far.

2. Cattle Mutilations

Don't know what to say about this one. I definitely agree that people simply "defaulted" to the extraterrestrial and/or government conspiracy explanation when they found they could not explain this phenomenon. However, there is no doubt that the who, why and how of this phenomenon is unexplained.

3. Area 51

Area 51 is yet another example of people "defaulting" to their preferred explanation when they find they cannot explain something. There is ZERO evidence whatsoever that aliens/UFOs are being hidden and experimented on at Area 51. Even if the U.S. government was indeed hiding something sinister at Area 51, why does it have to be aliens/UFOs?

Area 51 is a secret government facility and there is nothing more to it than that.

4. Crop Circles

I am in the camp that believes crop circles are man-made. That being said, it would certainly do us good to consider the more unusual aspects of some crop circles, such as the high levels of radiation. Just something to think about.

5. Cyclonia Face On Mars

Misinterpretation of data by both man and machine.

6. Alien Autopsy

It was a hoax since Day One.

7. Initial “Flying Saucer” Description

I view this story on two different levels. On one hand, the term "saucer" was attributed to UFOs long before the 1947 incident. At the same time, the story makes a good point about how this one incident essentially sparked the incredible U.S. UFO wave that lasted from 1947 to around the late 1960s. Yes, there were sporadic sightings prior to 1947, but this one seems to have been the one that kicked it off. So while Space.com committed an error here, its general "theme" regarding the Arnold incident is a valid one - the role that the media plays in giving life to truthful or fictional phenomena.

8. Alien Implants

I agree that it is not difficult to have objects accidentally implanted inside someone. At the same time, if I am not mistaken, there have been incidents where people reportedly have genuinely unusual objects inside them that seem to defy all explanation. However, as I said before, we need to consider the fact that there can be many explanations for these implants and not just default to the alien/UFO explanation.

9. Alien Abductions

Another one I have a difficult time making my mind up about. There are plenty of crazy folks out there who come up with some unbelievably outlandish stories that can be spotted as hoaxes from a mile away. In fact, I consider most abduction stories to be a hoax of some sort.

What has always struck me about the abduction phenomena, however, is the diversity of the people involved. In most kinds of human activity, you can establish a pattern or profile, of sorts, to the activity. For example, crime is something that occurs most frequently in the lower socioeconomic stratas of society. Do wealthy folks commit crime? Yes, sometimes very heinous crimes. But they commit crimes very infrequently versus poor people.

Where I am going with this is that there have been hundreds of abduction caes (counting the hoaxes) and there seems to be no pattern or profile that can be attributed to the people involved. Some of the more famous abductions cases have involved people that seem no different from any one of us, many of whom I consider more "normal" and well-off than myself! That is what I see to be the most bothersome aspect of the phenomena - we all seem to be at "risk." Not to mention these incidents seem to occur in the most mundane of circumstances - camping trips, fishing trips, driving back home from work, etc.

Where I am going with this is that there is something "real" about the abduction phenomena, something we cannot attribute simply to sleep paralysis and psychological activity. I have had sleep paralysis on numerous occasions and while I agree its a very odd experience and would be even more so for someone who has no idea what it is, the experience of sleep paralysis comes nowhere close to matching what is described in many of these abduction accounts.

Again, it does not have to be aliens/UFOs abducting people. But there is definitely something physically real about the phenomena.

10. Roswell

I have a love/hate relationship with Roswell. This is due to the fact the incident is one of the rare few that has overwhelming evidence supporting BOTH sides. Previous posters have presented information that shows that the Roswell crash could have indeed been Project MOGUL. But there is also obviously evidence, in particular the Sci-Fi Channel investigation from back in 2002, that shows that there is far more to the story than the government explanation.

One peculiarity to note regarding the Roswell incident is that the much-vaunted "documented" and "empirical" evidence seems to be stronger on the "official" side of things while "eyewitness" evidence is stronger on the alien/UFO side. This is important to consider in the course of determining who has the more plausible explanation because eyewitness testimony is subject to far more error. Much of people's descriptions of what they saw is heavily dependent on a person's language, education, knowledge of relevant material, perception of distance and time, etc. In fact, it is safe to say that a person's testimony of a particular incident, especially if the person is not a trained observer, tends to go through extensive revisions before it is even stated verbally or in writing. I have no clue as to what happened at Roswell, but I think it is safe to say that, without bearing judgment on the honesty or intentions of the witnesses, the evidence supporting an alien/UFO incident at Roswell is highly tenuous at best.

If there is any theme to be stated here, it is that there are a lot of processes and events, both seen and unseen, that make an event what it is. There is no rule, however, that any of it MUST be paranormal.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by sweatmonicaIdo]

reply to post by ColonelSF

add to what?
after reading the first item on the list.. I laughed out loud.
The article claims any evidence of alien contact is debunked because someone published how the Pyramids COULD have been built?
Okay, then exactly HOW were they built?
answer: no one knows for sure.
many theories exist, but none have been confirmed.
debunk #1.. shot out the window.


That article is clearly biased and the author really didnt have alot of substance to make many of his debunking claims.

You made a lot of excellent comments very well presented! So even if i don't completely agree with everything you said i like he way you said it.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

1. Pyramids

I agree with many folks who say the current knowledge of how the Pyramids were built is based largely on conjecture. That being said, there is no reason to favor the extraterrestrial explanation over any other. At the same time, the construction of the Pyramids does demonstrate a level of knowledge and wisdom, so to speak, that seems to be far beyond what we can allow ourselves to believe the ancient Egyptians were capable of.

that "we" certainly doesn't include me, I can imagine that the Egyptians were capable of quite a lot.

Having said that, I think the OP does over-inflate our understanding of how the pyramids were built, but when you read it closely it admits we really don't know for sure. So I think it's a fascinating mystery to study until we ARE sure how they did it. But in the meantime I agree, there's no need to invoke aliens.

2. Cattle Mutilations

Don't know what to say about this one. I definitely agree that people simply "defaulted" to the extraterrestrial and/or government conspiracy explanation when they found they could not explain this phenomenon. However, there is no doubt that the who, why and how of this phenomenon is unexplained.

Personally I have serious doubts that it's unexplained. Reading the list of reasons cattle mutilations are unexplained reminds me a whole lot of reading claims the moon landing was hoaxed....the claims do a lot more to demonstrate the ignorance of the person making the claims, than to suggest any mystery or conspiracy or alien involvement. No signs of blood, soft body parts missing and no tracks leading in or out of the site sounds about as hard to explain to me as parallel vs. non-parallel shadows on the moon...not very mysterious.

Cattle Mutilations

the FBI has investigated cattle mutilations. A man named Kenneth Rommel, an FBI agent, was chosen to head up a program called "Operationa Animal Mutilation" in 1979.

What did Rommel discover? Of all the cases he investigated, none lacked a natural explanation. The cows died and predators (buzzards, flies, skunks, whatever) came a long and ate some of them. Sometimes, they made a mess doing it. That's all. No spaceships. No alien surgeons. Nothing that doesn't have a reasonable explanation. These sort of investigations happen all the time; never, ever, has an animal carcass been brought before scientists that couldn't be explained in simple, reasonable terms.

Cattle killed without any blood being spilled on the ground? My rustic friends point out that when an animal is dead, the heart does not pump, which makes it hard for blood to be spilled. If blood is spilled, it pools underneath the body, where you can only find it after moving the body. Not something most casual witnesses do.

Some of what is spilled before the moment of death is usually consumed by hungry bugs unless you find the body right away. Those cuts that appear to be from a scalpel, making the incision through which the animal's organs were removed? Believe it or not, the teeth of predators are very sharp, and can sometimes resemble knife cuts. Surprised that the eyes, genitals, and mucous membranes of the animals are removed while the juicy organs are left behind? It is of no use to point out to the UFO enthusiast that cow hides are exceptionally tough, and a variety of predators, such as small mammals, birds, flies, and the like, prefer to eat the vulnerable parts of the animal first rather than trying to work their way through the tough hide. It's not a question of alien involvement. It's a question of predatory animals being lazy and not wanting to do the work to get to the innards.

3. Area 51

Area 51 is yet another example of people "defaulting" to their preferred explanation when they find they cannot explain something. There is ZERO evidence whatsoever that aliens/UFOs are being hidden and experimented on at Area 51. Even if the U.S. government was indeed hiding something sinister at Area 51, why does it have to be aliens/UFOs?

It doesn't have to be UFOs and probably isn't, but if they did have any alien technology Area 51 might be as good a place as any to hide it. But I've never seen any evidence of such technology.

4. Crop Circles 5. Cyclonia Face On Mars 6. Alien Autopsy

I agree with all those comments.

7. Initial “Flying Saucer” Description

...the role that the media plays in giving life to truthful or fictional phenomena.

Glad you got that point since I'm not sure everyone who read it understood that point. There was obviously a lot more going on than the power of suggestion, but that was definitely a factor from the media.

8. Alien Implants

I agree with your comments on this one too.

9. Alien Abductions

I have had sleep paralysis on numerous occasions and while I agree its a very odd experience and would be even more so for someone who has no idea what it is, the experience of sleep paralysis comes nowhere close to matching what is described in many of these abduction accounts.

Same here, however, we can't make the assumption that our experience with sleep paralysis and others' experience with sleep paralysis will be the same, somewhat similar, or even remotely similar.

Regarding what's "real", what does "real" mean? A dream experience can seem just as real to me as something that happens while I'm awake. So of course the experience in my dream is "real" in that sense.

There are a few odd cases that have puzzled me but after finding out the Walton abduction was a hoax and having more questions about the Barney and Betty hill case I've grown a lot more skeptical that these accounts are "real" outside the dream world, but they may certainly be "real" experiences inside the dreamworld and not necessarily hoaxes.

10. Roswell
I think it is safe to say that, without bearing judgment on the honesty or intentions of the witnesses, the evidence supporting an alien/UFO incident at Roswell is highly tenuous at best.

Excellent comments on Roswell and one of the most important factors in evaluating the accuracy of witness testimony to me is the time factor. When investigating the JAL1628 UFO sighting I noticed that the longer after the incident occurred, the more errors there were in the captain's recollection about what happened. And I would just about guarantee you that he was simply trying to recall everything exactly as it happened to the best of his ability, so he wasn't even trying to change his story. But we can compare his recollection with the recorded FAA transcripts which unlike human memory, don't change over time, and see that the freshest recollections immediately after the incident had the highest accuracy, and even those as you point out are subject to interpretation.

So I guess I'm not surprised when comparing what was said in 1947, about what people saw in 1947, to what was said in 1980 or later, about what people saw in 1947, shows some discrepancies. After 1980, foil has become magical foil and sticks have become magical sticks, but in 1947 they were just foil and sticks. Not too surprising really, especially when there was a real conspiracy to hide the truth by calling it a weather balloon when that's NOT what it was, it was far too big to be a weather balloon. So knowing it's a conspiracy, it should be easy to confabulate recollections a bit to go with the conspiracy.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by ColonelSF

add to what?
after reading the first item on the list.. I laughed out loud.
The article claims any evidence of alien contact is debunked because someone published how the Pyramids COULD have been built?
Okay, then exactly HOW were they built?
answer: no one knows for sure.
many theories exist, but none have been confirmed.
debunk #1.. shot out the window.




That article is clearly biased and the author really didnt have alot of substance to make many of his debunking claims.

I'll add to the list as others have:

1. Pyramids
no one can state with fact how they were constructed.
Many theories exist, none are confirmed.

2. Cattle Mutilation
It seems "experts" believe that ranchers, hunters, and farmers who work the area and land every day would not be able to recognize the work of local predators.
are you kidding me?
Really?
Now THAT's 100% unbelievable.

3. Area 51
Facts is.. everyone's guessing here.
A-51 did/does contain alot of "things" that will never be made public.
Your guess is as good as mine as to what is/was there at any given time.


want me to go on?
nothing here is "debunked"... just alot of speculation

reply to post by Arbitrageur


The balloon and equipment used were not classified, and some even suggest Project Mogul itself was not classified:

kevinrandle.blogspot.com...

Lt Col Kevin Randle has enough experience in the military to find the documents needed.

Another thing I keep pointing out is why would they need to fly the debris to Wright Patterson when it was only a weather balloon (balsa wood, tin foil, paper, etc) when they could red tag it and dispose of it on the base level.

There are way too many questions brought up by using Project Mogul as the explanation for what happened in Roswell. I am waiting for the next great explanation the Air Force will have for what took place.

Why are there threads like this in the ufo forum? The OP did not do any research about any of his debunked cases. This is just a waist of time for me. Post like this are starting to anoy me. This forum is becoming a habitat for trolls and leprechauns. Makes you wonder where they all come from...

Some of those cases might be debunked. Who knows... But all? I dont need to start defending anything.. Its up to noobs or disinfo agents here to do some serious research.

I dont even know why I come here to see such crap.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by hesse]

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

The balloon and equipment used were not classified, and some even suggest Project Mogul itself was not classified:
kevinrandle.blogspot.com...

Nothing in that link about classification, but as I said earlier it's probably semantics misunderstanding whether the materials were classified (foil and sticks) versus the PROJECT being classified. By the way everything in that blog entry seems like a non-issue to me. Randle presents a false dichotomy that we have to either believe Mogul or believe Marcel. That is absurd. What Marcel describes is so much like mogul it seems ridiculous to me to suggest there's any conflict, it's just that Marcel's recollection is slightly confabulated like most people's decades old memory would be, and not even very confabulated at that. It's still basically foil and sticks that Marcel recalls, he just spiced up the properties a little. Now if Marcel said he found a disc, like the newspaper article reported, then we might have something interesting. But nothing close.

Another thing I keep pointing out is why would they need to fly the debris to Wright Patterson when it was only a weather balloon (balsa wood, tin foil, paper, etc) when they could red tag it and dispose of it on the base level.

I did answer that but to repeat, because it WASN'T a weather balloon and they knew it wasn't a weather balloon. The materials may have been similar but there was far too much debris to be a weather balloon, I remember Jesse Marcel saying this. So the folks in command ordered the debris to be flown to a location that could analyze it to determine what it really was, since it obviously wasn't a weather balloon. That doesn't seem like a mystery at all to me.

There are way too many questions brought up by using Project Mogul as the explanation for what happened in Roswell. I am waiting for the next great explanation the Air Force will have for what took place.

I suppose some additional documents might become declassified that may shed some light but I'm not really expecting it. My guess is, we've probably heard about all we're going to hear from the Air Force on this matter.

LOL, this is funny. I'd just like to point out that I used the link used in the OP in this thread a while back:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Carry on!

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
You made a lot of excellent comments very well presented! So even if i don't completely agree with everything you said i like he way you said it.

Just denying ignorance, good sir.

Regarding what's "real", what does "real" mean? A dream experience can seem just as real to me as something that happens while I'm awake. So of course the experience in my dream is "real" in that sense.

By real, I mean there is something physical that is occuring to these people that is causing them to experience what they do. I am not saying they are actually being taken into spacecraft and experimented on, but their bodies are physically responding to something that is actually happening to them.

There are a few odd cases that have puzzled me but after finding out the Walton abduction was a hoax and having more questions about the Barney and Betty hill case I've grown a lot more skeptical that these accounts are "real" outside the dream world, but they may certainly be "real" experiences inside the dreamworld and not necessarily hoaxes.

When was the Walton abduction revealed to be a hoax?

I am actually glad you brought up Barney and Betty Hill because there is an important point that needs to be made about their experience. Given that their abduction occured in the 1950s and the Hills are an interracial couple, Barney and Betty Hill had an awful lot to lose by making up such a story and bringing that kind of publicity to themselves. I am not arguing for or against the validity of their story, but placing their experience within the proper social context of the time at least makes you wonder why, if it were indeed a hoax, they would take such a risk.

And I would just about guarantee you that he was simply trying to recall everything exactly as it happened to the best of his ability, so he wasn't even trying to change his story. But we can compare his recollection with the recorded FAA transcripts which unlike human memory, don't change over time, and see that the freshest recollections immediately after the incident had the highest accuracy, and even those as you point out are subject to interpretation.

The UFO phenomenon has indirectly given us a rather insightful revelation into the human mind, its capabilities and limitations. Much of it is rather elementary, however. If a person is bombarded with information from all sides all at once, eventually he/she will lose track of everything that is going on. I think that is exactly what is going on in all of these UFO incidents. Something unusual and extraordinary is occuring and their brains are having a hell of a time sorting all of this information out. A lot gets lost in the mix, so to speak, so often times people go as far as to fill in the blanks themselves. Again, like you said, nobody is trying to be untruthful, we are simply mitigating the limitations of the human mind.

So I guess I'm not surprised when comparing what was said in 1947, about what people saw in 1947, to what was said in 1980 or later, about what people saw in 1947, shows some discrepancies. After 1980, foil has become magical foil and sticks have become magical sticks, but in 1947 they were just foil and sticks.

Very interesting point you bring up. Much of what is considered the "facts" on the Roswell incident is based on accounts conveyed in 1980 and onward, not on what was initially reported in 1947. A classic case of a story taking a life of its own. I have been alive for only 23 years, but I would venture to guess that Roswell was not even that big of a deal until the "revised" accounts emerged in 1980, as you said.

LOL!!!

I STOPPED AT PYRAMIDS ... REALLY? are u serious?

common ...

watch ancient aliens, they raise a lot of intelligent questions that you didnt address in your "debunking text"

[edit on 12-6-2010 by Faiol]