Razor attacks in prisons ~ A comparison for 9/11 hijackers

This thread is a follow-up on the following thread How were the cockpits taken? Examining the Logistics.

Google the term: Razor attack prison

The entire premise of attacking someone with a box cutter and causing immediate death is virtually impossible, without a direct slashing of someones throat and holding them still for many seconds. The box cutters held by the government as proof of how the cockpits were entered are designed with break away blades that if too much pressure at a wrong angle would collapse the blade and snap it off.

For a comparison, the majority of attacks in prison environments do not result in death. In some circumstances a direct slash to a wind pipe can cause death. However, anyone awake and aware would move, put their hand in front of the blade, duck, or otherwise avoid a direct slash to the wind pipe. Most attacks using razor blades do not result in someone collapsing for many minutes, especially during a struggle. Our bodies will not feel the pain of a razor slash to the skin for several minutes, additionally blood may not even come from the slashes for several seconds. Our bodies can handle slashes to most parts and a person can fight long enough to gain control of the hand of an attacker using a single blade.

I urge anyone interested to research prison attacks that use razor blades. You will see most everyone has a few minutes to live and fight rather coherently when attacked by razor blades. The most risk involved in razor blade gashes is loss of blood, or a direct hit to the wind pipe.

To me this evidence alone should call into question how we are to believe not a single person jumped up to aid the pilots, or why the pilots stuffed inside the cockpits were not able to at least push the hijackers out of the cockpit to close the door.

If a couple of box cutters could take down three buildings and the Pentagon, then what would stop someone from sharpening a piece of volcanic glass and walking onboard an aircraft with the intent of commandeering it? Would this not be a weapon of equal or even greater effectiveness?

--airspoon

reply to post by airspoon


Actually the sharpened glass would be more deadly than a razor. A razor can only slice, the sharpened glass could slice and stick someone with.

First of all, excellent thread.



Could it be possible that prisoners are more used to violence and therefore are more likely to react when confronted with such a weapon than your average pilot or passenger?

Just a thought.

From fifteen years of experience I'll tell you that the greatest number of violent attacks in prisons are not meant to kill, it is a matter of respect and instilling fear.

Killing another inmate or staff member gets you a load of time, in some states it is a automatic place in line for the needle.

I promise you, if the intent is to kill, a razor knife, in a surprise attack, is better than a gun. Even in a non surprise situation, if a purposeful attacker can get within 15 feet or closer to you, you're in a dire situation.

reply to post by Tinman67


It really depends on which state you are in. In some states, most prison murders go unsolved and it is a very rare exception for one to actually be solved. They go unsolved because prisoners don't rat each other out. Of course in other states, such as Connecticut, even a fight in prison is prosecuted to the fullest and so are rare. So, it is all relative. Many prison murders are strictly business. In fact, you can't just go and kill or even fight anyone you want, you have to get permission by the "shot-caller", which is usually the yard "boss" of your particular race. These prison gangs, divided strictly by race (and you don't really have a choice), are highly organized, efficient and profitable. Trust me, they mean to kill.


--airspoon


[edit on 7-6-2010 by airspoon]

Most incidents happen right in front of staff. It's an out, so that you can get respect, but the incident can be stopped before anyone is killed.

Those bent on actually killing are hard to stop, but their usually loose canons.

I seen a guy have his skull crushed with a handle from a big bread dough mixer. We were rushing this guy to an ambulance waiting for us at the sallyport, bits of brain trailing behind, giving him CPR. Like that was going to help.

That was over a hamburger selling deal gone sour. Seems the dead one wasn't sharing the profits equally. Hell of a thing to lose your life over.

As far as no one wanting to snitch, wrong decade. This younger generation will snitch right in front of each other and if they ain't got someone to snitch on they'll darn near snitch themselves out.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


For one the term "boxcutter" was used by the media

The FBI was able to trace many of the knives purchased by hijackers

Many of them were multi -tool Swiss Army/Leatherman type knives or
folding blade knives not razors or "boxcutters"

Regulations in force before 9/11 allowed passengers to carry small knives and tools on board aircraft as long as blades were less than 4"

Here is chart showing some of the knives purchased by the hijackers

www.historycommons.org...

FBI recovered pieces of 14 different knives from Flight 93 debris

www.911myths.com...

In case you don't think these knives are dangerous was incident several years ago in Atlanta where guy walking home at night was jumped by gang armed with shotgun and pistol. All he had was small knife. Was able
to kill one of gang and severely wound another before rest fled.

Ex-Marine fends off robbers, kills 1

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A former Marine cook used a pocketknife to fend off a group of would-be robbers, killing one and wounding another, police said.

Thomas Autry, who authorities said will not be charged, was walking home from his job waiting tables Monday night when four people got out of a car and chased him, Atlanta police detective Danny Stephens said. One attacker had a shotgun, and another had a pistol.

"My first instinct was to run, but they cornered me, so I had no other choice than to defend myself," Autry said.

The suspects caught up with Autry, who yelled for help and pulled a knife out of his backpack. He kicked the shotgun out of one of the attacker's hands and stabbed both a 17-year-old girl who jumped on him and a man who also attacked him.

The suspects fled in their car, but police found them later at a hospital, where the girl was pronounced dead. The stabbed man was in critical condition, Stephens said.

Autry's attackers will face robbery and assault charges and are suspected in other recent robberies, Stephens said.

Autry, 36, suffered a cut to his hand and a bruise on his chest, Stephens said.

Autry said he was honorably discharged in 1992 after serving for four years. The Department of Defense confirmed his service.
__________________

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by ExPostFacto

 

For one the term "boxcutter" was used by the media

Do you have any idea(s) as to why only the term "boxcutter" was used by the media back then?

Why didn't they just come out and say "knives," or "pocket- knives"?

Clarification is appreciated

reply to post by thedman

Several 9/11 hijackers purchase multi-use tools and small knives [color=gold]that “may actually have been used in the attacks.” according to the 9/11 Commission. [9/11

On July 8, Flight 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta buys two Victorinox Swiss Army knives at Zurich Airport, Switzerland, while on his way to Spain (see July 8-19, 2001). He [color=gold]possibly attempts to buy box cutters in Florida on August 27. On August 30, he buys a Leatherman multi-tool in Boynton Beach, Florida. [9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004, PP. 530; 9/11 COMMISSION, 8/26/2004, PP.

www.historycommons.org...


May have?

He possibly attempts to buy box cutters?

What kind of proof is this?
The author is “assuming” what the alleged hijackers are going to do. All you are given us, is someone else opinions no credible facts here.

911Myths was proven to be is a well-known disinformation website.



[edit on 7-6-2010 by impressme]

reply to post by jam321


I think the pilots could very easily be caught off guard. No doubt about that. I just question why a single person didn't jump up to help, or why a passenger seeing something like this go down didn't raise up and restrain the arm of the attacker. Fight or flight responses should have made this situation more of a struggle than seconds to overcome a cockpit. I haven't been in the cockpit of planes hijacked, but the planes I have been in those cockpits are not extremely roomy. I would imagine every pilot jumping up at the site of someone entering the cockpit, and even if one attacker was present that grabbing an arm would have overcome him.

reply to post by Tinman67


I can agree with you that someone bent on killing with a razor knife could possibly kill someone by surprise. However, I would disagree that it could be done to two people, and even if only one person that person would hop up even if for only seconds and fend for his life. What about the other pilots? Would there be enough room in the cockpits to actually carry this out with two attackers?

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by jam321

 

I would imagine every pilot jumping up at the site of someone entering the cockpit, and even if one attacker was present that grabbing an arm would have overcome him.

You can't look at this with a 9/12 brain, you have to use your 9/10 brain.

The pilots that day could never have imagined someone entering the flight station and slicing into their necks. A seated pilot has absolutely no chance to "jump up" out of his seat because, as you said, the flight stations are not spacious and you have your legs down underneath the instrument panel, with a yoke between your legs. Additionally, the pilots would have expected anyone entering to be part of the flight crew and may not have reacted or even turned to see who it was - that is, if they even heard the people enter to begin with.

[edit on 6/7/2010 by bagari]

reply to post by ExPostFacto

I just question why a single person didn't jump up to help, or why a passenger seeing something like this go down didn't raise up and restrain the arm of the attacker. Fight or flight responses should have made this situation more of a struggle than seconds to overcome a cockpit

Well, think about it... Most passengers probably just thought that this would be an "ordinary" hijacking (if there is such a thing). Also, you don't know what kind of weapons they had and according to the OS, they apparently told the passengers that they had "bombs" on board. So, if you don't know that it was a suicide mission and you believe the hijackers to have a live bomb on some sort of trigger, you would be hesitant to interfere.

--airspoon

So the never ending horse manure of an official story now goes from box cutters to Swiss Army knives? Yeah sure! Nineteen Arab looking guys carrying Swiss Army knives manage to make it by airport security check without raising any red flags.

The alleged diminutive cave dwelling hijackers are outnumbered 10-1 by the crew and passengers and manage to prance into the cockpits and subdue the pilots and drag them out of the cockpit in record time. All the passengers just sit around making cellphone calls, even though their cellphones do not work from that elevation.

But the story does not end there. These same hijackers then exhibit flying and navigational skills that the best and most experienced Air Force Pilots in the land would envy. I guess some people have been watching too many Chuck Norris movies.

I also like the explanation of the cockpit doors being flimsy. I guess they were made out of tinfoil way back in the day of 9/11.

And what about the Flight Attendants? Would they just sit around and watch the hijackers forcibly enter the cockpits without trying to interfere or radio for help? Oh yeah, I forgot, they were all herded to the back of the plane, even though common sense dictates that the hijackers would prefer they remain in their seats and not move.

And I also like the explanation of the bombs being on board. The passengers see the pilots being removed violently from the cockpits and the hijackers entering the cockpits and flying the planes, but the passengers are worried about the claims of bombs being on the plane. Really, how stupid do you have to be to believe this trash dumpster of a story?

The only thing which was hijacked on 9/11 was the common sense of most Americans. But then again, that was done long before 9/11.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
So the never ending horse manure of an official story now goes from box cutters to Swiss Army knives? Yeah sure! Nineteen Arab looking guys carrying Swiss Army knives manage to make it by airport security check without raising any red flags.

About a week after 9/11 a journalist I worked with took a replica submachinegun through airport security at Heathrow. That was with increased, almost hysterical levels of security, and at an airport where measures were far superior to those in place at US facilities at the time.

Later you ask why passengers wouldn't attempt to disrupt the hijackings even though they were told there was a bomb on board and all hijackings up to that point had been non-suicidal. Your whole post rationalises the events with 20/20 hindsight.