Fiscal crises threaten Europe's generous benefits...UPDATED

Fiscal crises threaten Europe's generous benefits

apnews.myway.com

LONDON (AP) - Six weeks of vacation a year. Retirement at 60. Thousands of euros for having a baby. A good university education for less than the cost of a laptop.

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[edit on 23-5-2010 by prionace glauca]

Now the welfare state—cherished by many Europeans as an alternative to what they see as dog-eat-dog American capitalism—is coming under its most serious threat in decades: Europe's sovereign debt crisis.

Deep budget cuts are under way across Europe. Although the first round is focused mostly on government payrolls—the least politically explosive target—welfare benefits are looking increasingly vulnerable.

"The current welfare state is unaffordable," said Uri Dadush, director of the Carnegie Endowment's International Economics Program. "The crisis has made the day of reckoning closer by several years in virtually all the industrial countries."

It would be good to hear from our brothers and sisters across the pond about they hurting from the politics of the welfare system.

I do not know a citizen of the European society considers themselves to be on government welfare provided by your own high taxes of course, but me & the press surely think so. If such a system has been in play since the days of WWII, why do you think it took so long for it come to ruins as it is now.

One can surely blame uncontrolled government spending & corruption for the cause of this, but in reality would such a system really be sustainable. With the amount of people living longer & longer, that would mean after one retires that person alone has to be supported by 5 generations of workers x the amount of people retiring. Also those same workers have to support the generous money provided for each individual for having a child, and the six weeks vacation with pay per year, and also the next to nothing cost of education.

Having experienced what you have experienced thus far and what you see ahead for the future of Europe, do you still believe the system you are in is the right system of economics?

What would you change about your system if you could?

I really do hope the EU breaks up as it does nothing more than make nations support nations who can not control their spending. It is unfair to the citizens & nations who keep a tight control on their funds.


apnews.myway.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

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---------------------------------------UPDATE-----------------------------------------

No sooner than I finished my thoughts on this issue, it seems France has just announced to increase its age at which a person can retire. This issue is on everyone's mind as it has to do with the recent instability in the daily economics of the Euro Zone. What happens in the Euro Zone should be watched closely by Americans as the POTUS continues to march the US economy toward European like welfare system.

Expectations are growing that France is set to remove the right to retire at 60, as it embarks on a contentious reform of its debt-laden pension system and brings public finances back into line.

Christian Estrosi, industry minister, said on Sunday the government was “leaning towards an increase in the [retirement] age” in its talks with unions and employers’ federations, despite denials from cabinet ministers over the weekend of a decision being taken.

All but one of France’s five main unions have rejected suggestions that the retirement age should be increased, favouring instead taxes to fill a deficit expected to hit €32bn this year, as much as €45bn in 2020 and possibly more than €100bn in 2050.

France poised to raise retirement age

[edit on 23-5-2010 by prionace glauca]

[edit on 23-5-2010 by prionace glauca]

Retirement is 65, soon to be 67 in the UK for men. That age will only increase.

Some of us may never retire unless we win the lottery.

But that's just life, and best to just get on with it.

We'll just have to cut back on reckless military adventures, bailing out the banks etc ... nothing else for it.

Certainly can't cut back on education, university funding etc ... that'd be a retrograde step, we'd end up as dumb as the average American is now.

Well guys France is now considering raising its retirement age as it has the lowest age of retirement in all of the Euro Zone set at 60.

I am just awed at the fact that people who are uprising now believe that this type of welfare would have continued at the backs of those who continue to work longer hours just to provide for oneself & continue to feed the appetite of the collective.

Stop propaganda right now please!

It's the banking crisis that killed the system not the "welfare state". We pay more taxes than more liberal countries.

America is a worse country than any in term of spending. It borrows and prints money like crazy so that its citizens can keep their standard of living and blame others for being lazy while they don't have an idea of how the world works...

This article is just a distraction.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by ickylevel]

reply to post by ickylevel


Do you have any articles to prove otherwise?

Please avoid the propaganda paint brush without providing source to what you want to refute.

Did you also care to look at the recent applied update?

As this thread was created, France is doing what I had mentioned in the OP. This issue is complicated by the welfare state.

Not denying Banks did not have a hand in the matter, most of the funds that are collected to fund welfare are put in the stock market & mutual funds so that money can have a chance to increase in size. These risks were made by those elected.

Europe recognizes that its sustainability rests on cuts to bureaucracies which have operated without control, and also cuts to government programs which are full wasteful spending.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by prionace glauca]

The problem is government's corruption. It could work if we were in a democracy.Were bankers were not given the green light to bankrupt the country.
I'm not fond of welfare state but the article, with its "generous" and "The current welfare state is unaffordable" is making pure demagogy.

Also, its not like we don't pay for it. So they'r going to remove welfare, but still making the people pay for it.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by ickylevel]

Originally posted by Ulala
We'll just have to cut back on reckless military adventures, bailing out the banks etc ... nothing else for it.

Certainly can't cut back on education, university funding etc ... that'd be a retrograde step, we'd end up as dumb as the average American is now.

you see, it's imbecilic comments like these that make people think Northern Europeans are racists twats and generally happy at the thought that you have a low fertility rate.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by The Cap de Pepene]

Originally posted by The Cap de Pepene

Originally posted by Ulala
We'll just have to cut back on reckless military adventures, bailing out the banks etc ... nothing else for it.

Certainly can't cut back on education, university funding etc ... that'd be a retrograde step, we'd end up as dumb as the average American is now.

you see, it's imbecilic comments like these that make people think Northern Europeans are racists twats and generally happy at the thought that you have a low fertility rate.

[edit on 23-5-2010 by The Cap de Pepene]

But he has a point. It's bailing out banks the problem, not education,solidarity etc ... We are beholding a complete destruction of the pretended moral values of the european states.

Yeah! unfortunaly a bit skewed piece of propaganda!

Health and education in Northen Europe is mostly paid for with very high taxes.

Sure, the Southern countries do have some problem which stem mostly from people who don't pay their taxes as they should or that the taxes are not high enough to cover the the benefits.

Heck! to avoid paying taxes in Greece is a national sport!

Add to that a very low retirement age and the large black economy and the equation fail.

The Northen European countries has better managed economies and the age for retirement has been 65 for a very long time. Now they are changing that to 67 in many countries.

But the Southern European countries really need to change though!

reply to post by Chevalerous


Are you in favor of the break up in the EU, a return to the old where each country retains its sovereignty instead paying into the national collective that some have become use to because of the bailouts of bad behavior.

I see Germany is definitely looking to depart and yearning the return of the deutchsmark.

Oh you jealous free market capitalists bastards are loving this aren't you? Just becasue you were not able to get this system, one that FDR promised for you, you are loving seeing it being taken from the people who did.

You should all be fighting to have the right to retire at 60!? Who wants to work after that age? If you do fair play but most people want to relax after working for night on 40 years.

Double Post

[edit on 23-5-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

The system is collapsing under its own weight. With many more drawing from the system than putting in. Especially since the economic woes as many are unemployed now with no more money to put into the system.

No one is gloating that people are suffering but the complete opposite. I have many family members across the pond though many still have jobs, they too are worried about where the future is headed. Most are employed in the public sector & are seeing unrest in the public offices they work at.

Originally posted by prionace glauca
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

Are you in favor of the break up in the EU, a return to the old where each country retains its sovereignty instead paying into the national collective that some have become use to because of the bailouts of bad behavior.

I see Germany is definitely looking to depart and yearning the return of the deutchsmark.

Well! It's a very difficult question for me really!

But now we're in this crap together and the Banking Cartel is also to blame for the bad situation - and not ONLY the behaviour of certain singled-out countries.

And the Southern countries that have lived beyond their means, will have to take some tough measures with their economies to get back on the right track, that's for sure!

They need to pay the same amount of taxes and have similar tax levels as the Northen countries if they want to continue having a welfare state with free health,education and other benefits.

They can't both have the cake and eat it too!

I see Germany is definitely looking to depart and yearning the return of the deutchsmark

Well! Germany will not depart IMO - they have had very huge advantages with the €uro to build their wealth even if "some" of their citizens are now a bit disappointed about the situation and therefore whine a little!

Remember that Germany was completely destroyed after the war and other European countries and their investments & help together with USA, also contributed to the success of Germany and their trade.

All of which, was made possible through the magic of the Bretton Wood agreement and BIS BANK.

(The Dollar Fiat Scam!) lol!

I have relatives and family branches in four different European countries and in some sense I like the concept of a border free Europe - and yes! I feel some solidarity and brotherhood with my other European brothers and sisters.

But I don't like big bureaucracies in general - and I wish there could be some other way to have this European community without having a superstate.

There are many things that are good with working together as a team as well!

But I think it has gone way too fast with both the implementation of the Euro & the Lisbon Treaty, and the overall urgent rush the build the EU super state which can be difficult for people to adjust to - me included!

Since I was a child, I have been living in several different countries - Asia, South America, and in couple of European countries - so I have always felt a bit like a world citizen my whole life.

It's weird! borders for me is just some line on a map, but on the other hand I'm also very thankful for the diversity of cultures out there - and even in Europe we are having very different cultures while we also have so much things in common which tie us together through our history.

People have migrated through and from country to country in Europe since long time ago - marriages between families also happened over the national borders and has continued to do so even into our modern days.

One thing that we Europeans now know for sure and what the evolution of history has thought us - is that European Nationalism in seperate European countries always end very bad!

So some kind of union between us is maybe not a such a terrible idea after all - but I'm not saying that our current model of such union is the ideal solution either.

So this is a very difficult question for me!

Personally what I like about the European Union is that I can work and live wherever I want in Europe - and that is fine with me since I'm not a huge fan of the concept with borders and Nationalism anyway, in general.

I also like the free trading concept between our countries.

But the current 'one size fits all' model is maybe not (YET!) the best solution for all Europeans since there ARE still some cultural differences and people maybe still value some things a little bit differently between the Northen and Southern parts of Europe.

And that is why I think that maybe all of this has gone way too fast!

And to the question if want the EU to break up? - right now no! but I think I'll have to wait and see how things are developing in these coming months to answer that question properly - maybe I can bump this thread in the beginning of next year with a final answer?

Why have they been rushing things as they have done these last ten years? - it surely must be some kind of NWO'ish agenda behind all that - otherwise they could have taken all these draconian things over a 30 year period instead and make it a bit more slowly for people/countries/businesses to adapt to the developments.

They officially say that they rush things for us to be a competive force on the world market against the rest of the blocks.

And Asia and India is of course major rising economies which we in the western world will soon compete with to survive.

Therefore I'm quite sure that TPTB could want an American Union soon as well, and that the trans-Atlantic economical pact will be our only way to have any lead in the future Global markets.

If you are really interested you should google 'Transatlatic agreement USA EU' and 'Transatlantic council' TEC

Transatlantic Economic Council

U.S., EU Focus on Regulatory Barriers at Transatlantic Economic Council

U.S. and EU officials met in Washington on October 26-27, 2009, for the U.S.-EU Financial Markets Regulatory Dialogue (FRMD) and the first Transatlantic Economic Council (TEC) to take place during the Obama presidency. The TEC meeting, which occurred in the early stages of a recovery from a major international financial and economic crisis and just ahead of the next U.S.–EU Summit, reviewed global economic challenges and stressed the need to cooperate even more closely, including to enhance the integration and competitiveness of U.S. and EU economies.

useu.usmission.gov...

US and EU: Transatlantic Partnership for the 21st Century

www.acus.org...

Bush OKs 'integration' with European Union

Congress never asked about new obligation

President Bush signed an agreement creating a "permanent body" that commits the U.S. to "deeper transatlantic economic integration," without ratification by the Senate as a treaty or passage by Congress as a law.

The "Transatlantic Economic Integration" between the U.S. and the European Union was signed April 30 at the White House by Bush, German Chancellor Angela Merkel – the current president of the European Council – and European Commission President José Manuel Barroso

The document acknowledges "the transatlantic economy remains at the forefront of globalization," arguing that the U.S. and the European Union "seek to strengthen transatlantic economic integration."

The agreement established a new Transatlantic Economic Council to be chaired on the U.S. side by a cabinet-level officer in the White House and on the EU side by a member of the European Commission.

The Transatlantic Economic Council was tasked with creating regulatory convergence between the U.S. and the EU on some 40 different public policy areas, including intellectual property rights, developing security standards for international trade, getting U.S. GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Practices) recognized in Europe, developing innovation and technology in health industries, implementing RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) technologies, developing a science-based plan on bio-based products and establishing a "regular dialogue" to address obstacles to investment.

At a joint press conference, Bush thanked the other two leaders for signing the "trans-Atlantic economic integration plan," commenting that, "It is a recognition that the closer that the United States and the EU become, the better off our people will be."

Barroso said the Transatlantic Economic Council is meant to be "a permanent body, with senior people on both sides of the Atlantic."

www.wnd.com...

PDF Transatlantic Economic Integration Between The European Union And The United States of America :
www.eurunion.org...

www.eurunion.org...

www.eurunion.org...

[edit on 23-5-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


Thank your for your reply, I was hoping to find more from those across the pond instead of people attacking one economic system over another.

Indian and Chinese economies are also very different. India practices more of capitalist system and china a socialist system, though they are adopting some controlled capitalistic provisions.

All governments would function so much better if unnecessary bureaucracies can be dismantled. What Europe did to come together to form the EU, we already in the US have that as all the states are part of the Union. The North American Union to me is a very bad idea as Mexico is not a country that anyone would like to assimilate with. I don't mind joining up with Canada, at least they are civil and understand principles & rules. Mexico is devoid of rules and basics appreciation for laws.

However, is it a possibility for Europe to exist border less as they do now but without a central body of a European Union. Why not just have sovereign governments govern their territories without borders?

Originally posted by Ulala
We'll just have to cut back on reckless military adventures, bailing out the banks etc ... nothing else for it.

Certainly can't cut back on education, university funding etc ... that'd be a retrograde step, we'd end up as dumb as the average American is now.

Hahaha I remember when types like you were enjoying our economic problems and couldn't wait for us to go into anarchy, so how does it feel now?

Nice stereo type by the way and since our economy is picking back up, we'll end up like the average pompous-European bigot.

This proves one thing that I have always believed to be true:

Socialism is NOT a service provided by government, it is distributed stagnation passed off as measured prosperity.

I have said this before during the height of European "Prosperity" and it must be said again! As it has never rung so true.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Oh you jealous free market capitalists bastards are loving this aren't you? Just becasue you were not able to get this system, one that FDR promised for you, you are loving seeing it being taken from the people who did.

You should all be fighting to have the right to retire at 60!? Who wants to work after that age? If you do fair play but most people want to relax after working for night on 40 years.

Why you mad? You Europeans (Generalizing as non-Americans) were so excited about the fact that America was about to go"pop" a couple years back. So yeah it is kind of bitter-sweet and ironic that you "perfect" Europeans are in the same situation as we were, depressing isn't it?

No I don't wish this upon anyone, but it's quite interesting that people like you are still flaming at Americans, and for what?