Time and Space - my simplistic view

When I was a teenager I wrote down a formula that I had worked out . It is very simplistic . I need the help of anyone who understands these things . If there is any validity in this , please let me know. I have not plagiarised anything and I don't even know what are the current theories of Time & Space.

I concluded that :

T=M+S (Time=Movement in Space)

This is my theory that time exists only because of Movement within Space. For example our 24 hour clock is based on a day's rotation of the earth. We can see the sun moving around from sunrise to sunset and sunrise again, and we divide this movement into 24 hours arbitrarily.

Now if the Sun stopped doing this what would happen ? We would no longer have this measure of time. It would either be daylight all the time or nightime always. Of course we could still keep our clock but it would cause a problem because we would not have a proper cut off between separate days.

How then would we measure our age if the earth stopped rotating. I suppose we could use different measures of time. For example ,we could keep a plant indoor and watch it grow to have an idea how much time has passed.

Would we stop ageing? No , I doubt it . Our cells would still Move, dying and reproducing. If there is movement then there is Time. We would then know that considerable time has passed because of our skin starting to show signs of age.

I forgot. Assume also that the moon is no longer visible.

If everything in the world stopped moving , would time exist. Probably not. But then we would not exist anymore.

Next conclusion is

S=M+T (Space = Movement in Time)

Here Space equals Movement and Time . Here I intuit that space only exists because there is movement. For example , if I can walk between two trees then there is space between them. If I cannot move then , as far as I am concerned, there is no space between them. It might as well not exist since I cannot move across it. The two trees would be like in a photograph. No space between the two of them.

If there is nothing that moves on the face of the earth, then there cannot be space. For two rock that face each other, there is no space between them since they cannot move. They would only realise there is space if say a bird flew in between.

Therefore both Space and Time are a function of Movement. Movement is the key thing. Time and Space are just a product. Now could Time and Space be two sides of the same coin ? Or could they be one and the same ?

I have deliberately kept all this simple and have never attempted to read up on it.

Obviously, the above are theories of the manifested environment, after our consciousness has done the job of manifesting it for us.

Sorry if I appear totally ignorant in these matters. If anyone responds please keep in very simple and no Einstein theory, unless you can put it in simple plain language

Thanks





[edit on 15-5-2010 by crowdedskies]

The way we calibrate time is a man made construct but there's no denying entropy.

IRM

reply to post by crowdedskies


excellent you prooved so much there, god king of time nature of space and truth beyond all

i like it at least something i understand when i read

ok my comment on your conclusion, time and space are representing ones freedom, you know god say being the time and nature being space
it is their free pretenses as it is all about creations, i guess you can take the form you want on their dimension of awareness moves abilities

but basically absolute freedom is also a space conception reality, that is objectively realized by truth life certainty justifications

and absolute freedom is the source of positive free life forever more alive and absolute realities sources, so it is also a time conception absolutely living, i guess when a reality is absolutely living it becomes source of another reality from that point living that become a free move so it is like another life time to achieve and realize fully

we can invent a lot of things heh of nothing lol you dont know we are maybe right and all scientists wrong it would be funny well you are more credible then me i am too obvious in nothing that noone cares about

The Mayas didn't even had a word for "time" for the maya, what we call "time" was cyclical, and infinite, because the earth moves in circles, the closest word they had for time was "movement".

www.fortunecity.com...

reply to post by imans


I like the fact that you throw in the word "freedom". I also feel that you are emphasising the our ability to impact the environment and make changes in our life. Thanks for your comments.

Originally posted by Balumby
The Mayas didn't even had a word for "time" for the maya, what we call "time" was cyclical, and infinite, because the earth moves in circles, the closest word they had for time was "movement".

www.fortunecity.com...

Thanks for your valued contribution. I will read the contents of your link.

reply to post by crowdedskies


exactly, there cant be any fact if it wasnt because of freedom base being the facts life as its source justifications absolutely

that is how absolute freedom is positive truth life as its source, what is absolutely free is itself one positive living that would always manage or regulate any objective reality or itself balance from being positive fact one point reference, it is pur logic of positive result but from as true living too in another dimension in all conditions of others livings powers that its truth is much different and hard to grasp for the sense of freedom reference need as objective reality life to define its true living sense there

so definitely there is an objective truth and nothing to do with any god beyond void as its source

Here is a bit of my opinions concerning the interdependance of time space and thought.
The main point being is a metaphysical correlation of space-time being the main manifestation of thought in nothigness of space, realizing the expression being of infinite change (movement).


Here and now the flow of the thought form goes in strict resonance with the cyclic time flow of the current perceptual illusion.
The time flow here and now is intended to seem to us as linear, i.e. past-present-future and the flow of the thought wave will tend to go with a strict resonance with the time flow, so it will look at space as a factor of non linearity, and it will seem to us, that space is something of a predominant value, i.e. it will seem "Real" to us. I am not talking about the perceptual illusion of things, i am talking about Space as a constant for the perceptual navigation in this illusion. Time, on the other hand will seem as , shall we say, point of observation for the ever changing position of expression in space.

Now let us get the things straight: Our thought is of time, our illusion is of space; space is nothing, for it is illusion and time is everything for it is thought; when you have nothing (space) and everything(time), you are able to begin feeling yourself via expression of yourself in space.
In other words space is the result of the temptation for the exploration of self, the focus of infinite energy into the desire to express itself, while time in its pure essence is everything without nothing which is pure thought.

Here and now we are in the state, known as "incarnation", where time comes into a sort of pontentialized flow state, and space comes into an activated state, in other words space is used as a navigation and time is used as a direction. Basically, we are living our incarnations in a "scenario" which is unique for everyone, because the thought flow of time, i.e. the direction is a subject of an implemented Free Will here on Earth.

When the cyclic incarnation comes to an end, the direction, or timeline is broken, and the focus of awareness immediately comes into the realization and activation of true nature of self. This realization is primarily achieved via a significant loss of the mind complex, that is strictly related to the physical body complex of any particular incarnation. With the Realization space is no longer needed as a form of navigation, as there is no particular direction; so time itself comes into fully activated tool for the complete navigation of your thoughts, and space is used as it should be: a tool for the expression of your thoughts and becomes potentialized. In other words time and space comes into the strict resonanse with our multidemnsional nature at the specific moment, thus we are able to percieve our expression as of pure thought expressing itself in space when the temptation occurs, i.e. total freedom and controll of everything that concerns us.

The final point being, is that "time" here now is an obligatory direction of thought, for this specific planet of incarnation i.e. Earth. Thought in itself is cyclic, so time will also be cyclic here and now, neverthless you have your own specific direction of thought, yet it will be strictly dependant upon the main thought direction of Earth. It goes like this Universe- Galaxy-Solar System-Planet-You : everything goes in strict resonance and codependancy, which seems to us as movement in space, while in reality it is more like movement in cyclic time, for change(movement) is everlasting. As your "incarnation" comes to an end the dependance upon the Universal circle of directed thought is "broken" and you are set free with the experience that you have acquired from this union.

This all may leave us with the understanding, that time is thought; change(movement) is the desire and space is the expression. All being infinite One in its essence, which is thought.

reply to post by dryadlover


I feel that your post contains within it a lot of wisdom. It is worth reading and re-reading.

Perhaps I am wrong in treating space as a product of movement and should instead treat it as a stage of infinite possiblilty upon which Time can interact.

If I understand your concept, I should also treat Time ,movement and thought as meaning the same thing.

reply to post by crowdedskies


it is a classical perspective of space time from being god creations justifications, there is no reference to truth there

and we know how those justifications are not meant forever when they are related to what god set the end of times
which is logical there is nothing that could be called desire of infinite change, everyone at a certain amount of living experience would repeat itself it cannot invent being else infinitly, because it would know objective ways sources that cannot keep inventing new lives absolutely, it is always of the same truth ultimately as a source of positive creations

but they enjoy ensure the bad by using the word change instead of move, because move mean necessarly positive sense, since negative dont move and lie

My ramble:

Time and space are not illusory but they are a product of our senses, or the limitations of our senses. Our bodies are a part of this reality hence our spirit in turn is also bound while in the body. Spirit is timeless and exists within a higher number of dimensions. Do we now pay heed to the 1st dimension? No because we exist well above it, we are not bound by it but it does exist. Similarly when we rise above 3 dimensional space and time we are no longer bound by them. They become equal only in that they will affect us no more. That said, arguably we will be bound by higher dimensions unless there is a mechanism to ascend even higher. Who knows if there is a limit to the number of dimensions then we are doomed to be trapped by another set of dimensional restrictions no matter what.

When one says time and/or space are illusory I can't help but chuckle. If this is true then you are illusory too. Higher dimensions are built upon the lower like a pyramid. If time and/or space isn't real, then nothing is real and higher dimensional space does not exist. If you perceive something then it is real, even though through your limited senses and experience you may not be understanding it in it's true and complete form.

T=M+S (Time=Movement in Space)

Next conclusion is

S=M+T (Space = Movement in Time)

I believe you are onto something. Without time, movement in at least a 2 dimensional space cannot exist, unless all of 2 dimensional space can be occupied at once by a 2 dimensional being. Perhaps time is actually the 2nd dimension and not the 4th or "psuedo 4th"as many have hypothesized.

Interesting thread. The premise, I can see, is clearly flawed, however, I definitely think this might be worth investigating a little more...

let me discuss this, T=M+S
Time is movement in space.
This is debatable. First of all, the way in which you believe we measure time is not entirely correct. We don't necessarily need to see the position of the sun in order to know the time. In fact, the way a watch works is, most often, through the use of rocks... or gems, rather, if you prefer that sort of language. Quartz, as it is known, has interesting vibrational properties. In fact, there are groups of scientists across the world that are doing radical experiments involving crystals which can vibrate at incredible frequencies, which are THE most accurate way of measuring time that we know of.

A little side-track: I am extremely interested in being able to measure time accurately, but I believe it is quite impossible in reality to be able to measure time to it's last indivisible measurement, much for the same reason that it is quite impossible to be able to measure space down to its very last indivisible measurement.
Of course, I realize that you said it was a very simplistic view, and for this, I cannot blame your avoiding the obvious issues raised in your view, and as I said, it could most definitely be worth reading up on and doing further personal investigations.

Back to time; Now that you understand more about the way in which we measure time, you may think that of course, this only proves your point further that time is motion in space, for we are at the most basic level, observing how many times the crystal vibrates per second. HOWEVER, the second will go by regardless of whether or not the crystal is vibrating. Of course, this is getting into the realms of some serious metaphysics that even most scientist dare not delve into; for whatever reason, perhaps they just want to keep their sanity.

Now, onto S=M+T (Space is Motion in Time). This is, of course, as above, flawed logically, however you may be onto something. Space, like time, cannot be measured down to the last indivisible measurement. We can get pretty small, but even recent experiments have shown that where there is no observable space between two objects, there really is, lets called it a "Quantum Cushion" between two objects that appear to have no space in between them. Yet even this distance isn't the smallest distance that can be reached. Or maybe it is; to be honest with you, the jury is out on pretty much anything related to time.
However, I WOULD like to point out an interesting paradox which your explanation of Space and Time explains: If Time is Motion in Space, then Space is Motion in Time (that is the general gist of your argument, no?) So you are saying that there can be no space which exists independent of time. But what about non-space? Or, rather, a vacuum. Does no time exist in a vacuum? A very hard concept to get my head around, but think of this

Imagine a vacuum (of course, I know you can't, however, try) Does time go on inside that vacuum? According to your logic, time would indeed be still inside this vacuum, yet time would be passing on outside of this vacuum. Since the vacuum is completely void, there is no way of measuring time, that we know of, inside this vacuum, however outside of the vacuum we could be measuring time since physical objects exist in the space and we can clearly observe the crystals vibrating at such and such frequencies per second. Logic dictates, then, that time ought to be going on inside this vacuum, however, since there are absolutely no changes to be had inside this vacuum, it is absolutely impossible to truly say whether or not time is passing inside said vacuum.

You have just scraped the surface of a very complex question, and there are, I believe, no 'simple' explanations to neither space nor time. I believe that they are infinitely simple and, being the thinking beings we are, can have no satisfactory explanation of these very simple realities. Time passes and Space exists. That these two exist must mean that Motion is real. This is of course, also inherently flawed because existence is such a vague term which explains nothing yet predicts reality.

Well, that's actually why (if I understand correctly) cosmologists and theoretical physicists believe that our space-time manifold includes four dimensions: because relative motion (time) constitutes an additional dimension to three dimensions without any relative motion. In that sense, time is simply movement, so one could say that purely three dimensional space would entail no relative motion whatsoever, and that as soon as any is introduced, a fourth dimension is present.

We suspect that there are also other dimensions. In some theories the hypothesized fifth dimension would exist as all of what we regard as time - the "past, present, and future," - simultaneously, existing as a solid whole.

There are others, however.

Originally posted by LususNaturae
Interesting thread. The premise, I can see, is clearly flawed, however, I definitely think this might be worth investigating a little more...

let me discuss this, T=M+S
Time is movement in space.
This is debatable. First of all, the way in which you believe we measure time is not entirely correct. We don't necessarily need to see the position of the sun in order to know the time. In fact, the way a watch works is, most often, through the use of rocks... or gems, rather, if you prefer that sort of language.
A

Thanks for you contribution. I will comment on the other parts afterwards. However at this stage I just want to explain what I meant about the sun's movement. Although the Quartz thing is valid, that kind of time would however be meaningless if we were thinking about 'years'. If the earth stopped rotating, the concept of days and years would no longer apply. Yes, you can use rocks (gems) but what would be your cut off. What would be a 'day'. Would it be based on a standard measure of time with is attached bodily needs. As in : I need to sleep. What standard measure of time would be used ?



[edit on 16-5-2010 by crowdedskies]

Originally posted by slane69
When one says time and/or space are illusory I can't help but chuckle. If this is true then you are illusory too. Higher dimensions are built upon the lower like a pyramid. If time and/or space isn't real, then nothing is real and higher dimensional space does not exist. If you perceive something then it is real, even though through your limited senses and experience you may not be understanding it in it's true and complete form.

Considering space being an illusion: Space in itself is an illusion as long as at is an expression of time, space ceases to become an illusion, when it is nothingness or emptiness, for then it becomes the pure creation or, shall we say an absolute expression of thought, because then it is not a subject of desires which bring infinite change for the expression of time, and thus it is constant, i.e. real. The thing is, that space in itself can never become absolute emptiness, for it was created for the sake of infinite expression, so it will infinitely be a subject of desires, thus making it an infinite illusion. Illusion in itself does not mean, that is is not “real”, it purely means that it is a subject of infinite change.

Now, time in its essence is real as it is an absolute thought, while the perceivable time is again an illusion of the senses.

So, does that make you in illusion also? In a sense it does, for you are a subject of infinite change, yet in your essence you are real because you are the absolute pure “Spirit”-thought.

Originally posted by dryadlover


Considering space being an illusion: Space in itself is an illusion as long as at is an expression of time, space ceases to become an illusion, when it is nothingness or emptiness, for then it becomes the pure creation or, shall we say an absolute expression of thought, because then it is not a subject of desires which bring infinite change for the expression of time, and thus it is constant, i.e. real. The thing is, that space in itself can never become absolute emptiness, for it was created for the sake of infinite expression, so it will infinitely be a subject of desires, thus making it an infinite illusion. Illusion in itself does not mean, that is is not “real”, it purely means that it is a subject of infinite change.

Now, time in its essence is real as it is an absolute thought, while the perceivable time is again an illusion of the senses.

This seems to resonate with what others are saying. Space is somekind of infinite possibiity and time/thought is the absolute notion. I am willing to take this notion on board.

Originally posted by dryadlover


Considering space being an illusion: Space in itself is an illusion as long as at is an expression of time, space ceases to become an illusion, when it is nothingness or emptiness, for then it becomes the pure creation or, shall we say an absolute expression of thought, because then it is not a subject of desires which bring infinite change for the expression of time, and thus it is constant, i.e. real. The thing is, that space in itself can never become absolute emptiness, for it was created for the sake of infinite expression, so it will infinitely be a subject of desires, thus making it an infinite illusion. Illusion in itself does not mean, that is is not “real”, it purely means that it is a subject of infinite change.

Now, time in its essence is real as it is an absolute thought, while the perceivable time is again an illusion of the senses.

This seems to resonate with what others are saying. Space is somekind of infinite possibiity and time/thought is the absolute notion. I am willing to take this notion on board.

Originally posted by LususNaturae


However, I WOULD like to point out an interesting paradox which your explanation of Space and Time explains: If Time is Motion in Space, then Space is Motion in Time (that is the general gist of your argument, no?) So you are saying that there can be no space which exists independent of time. But what about non-space? Or, rather, a vacuum. Does no time exist in a vacuum? A very hard concept to get my head around, but think of this

Yes, that is the gist. However after reading some of the posts I am now inclined to revise my notion of space. It may well exist independently of movement and that would get me back to the drawing board.

If you bring in vacuum then it get very complex. Still , as you said, the complexity of it is in its inherent simplicity. Oh, how I love paradoxes. They shield the truth so cleverly.

Originally posted by crowdedskies
Thanks for you contribution. I will comment on the other parts afterwards. However at this stage I just want to explain what I meant about the sun's movement. Although the Quartz thing is valid, that kind of time would however be meaningless if we were thinking about 'years'. If the earth stopped rotating, the concept of days and years would no longer apply. Yes, you can use rocks (gems) but what would be your cut off. What would be a 'day'. Would it be based on a standard measure of time with is attached bodily needs. As in : I need to sleep. What standard measure of time would be used ?
[edit on 16-5-2010 by crowdedskies]

Ah. I understand now. Apologies for the misunderstanding. You are correct in that we appear to have a rather arbitrary measurement of time. A second is a 60th of a minute, which is a 60th of an hour, which is a 24th of a day, which is a 365th of a year. It all seems so incredibly random, that any measurement we have, such as quartz, which has so many vibrations per second which is how we measure time.
I understand the point you were trying to convey more clearly now.