This is why religious believers should pay very close attention to evolution.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
Good points being made here, anyone ever wonder what creatures existed when it was just darkness just some food for your minds lol. Op I agree science and religion have many cross points and as humans evolve we will better understand it.

I agree

reply to post by jokei


You have a good mind, but a tricky one

God is just a name. Its the name a intelligent mind gave infinity a long time ago. God means infinite, everything. A Gray could fit fine to, as long its given to the same source

reply to post by havok


I totally get your view, but when God created the light for day and the dark for night He stated they equal one day. I have pondered on this too, yet haven't wanted to study it too indepth because it has never been a desire, but, we shouldn't go around changing what Father said. In six days, as we know them to be, He created the heaven's and the earth and all that is in it.

Who knows, you may be on to something, but it is totally irrelivent to saving our own souls. Ask Father for the answers, He always listens.

reply to post by spy66


I think there you have the entire crux of the Atheist/Theist argument. Now, not to disagree for the sake of it, but I definitely wouldn't call it God, nor Gray... it's a tough thing to conceptualise when - let's face it, none of us has had "direct" experience of the force of creation.

We never will know one way or another, but kudos to you, this is one of the first OPs I've seen that has tried to address this without be combatative. The main thing I think we should consider is that even if we can't agree, we can still be nice and rational about it and importantly that we're discussing ideas.

Not sure how much more I can contribute at this point, but I'll be keeping tabs and seeing how it goes.

Originally posted by assasinforfather
reply to post by havok

 

I totally get your view, but when God created the light for day and the dark for night He stated they equal one day. I have pondered on this too, yet haven't wanted to study it too indepth because it has never been a desire, but, we shouldn't go around changing what Father said. In six days, as we know them to be, He created the heaven's and the earth and all that is in it.

Who knows, you may be on to something, but it is totally irrelivent to saving our own souls. Ask Father for the answers, He always listens.

He is right about the day and night. The light would separate the darkness.

But we have to remember that there is no sun yet at this stage. So, there cant be a 24 hour day because earth is not spinning around the sun at this point, there is no sun to make a reference point.

Day one just means that God separated light from darkness. And than the process goes on until a new stage appears. The time frame at this stage is dependent on the expansion/changes within the initial creation.

In other words the expansion of energy and matter is the actual time frame.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by assasinforfather
reply to post by havok

 

I totally get your view, but when God created the light for day and the dark for night He stated they equal one day. I have pondered on this too, yet haven't wanted to study it too indepth because it has never been a desire, but, we shouldn't go around changing what Father said. In six days, as we know them to be, He created the heaven's and the earth and all that is in it.

Who knows, you may be on to something, but it is totally irrelivent to saving our own souls. Ask Father for the answers, He always listens.

He is right about the day and night. The light would separate the darkness.

But we have to remember that there is no sun yet at this stage. So, there cant be a 24 hour day because earth is not spinning around the sun at this point, there is no sun to make a reference point.

Day one just means that God separated light from darkness. And than the process goes on until a new stage appears. The time frame at this stage is dependent on the expansion/changes within the initial creation.

In other words the expansion of energy and matter is the actual time frame.

Gathering the idea that energy and matter expanding could be a huge time frame, then I still lean to the side that it might not have been literally one day.

But, to me, it really doesn't matter.
I'm not one to question these things because these days they seem irrelevant.

We can also get into the debate of language barriers between Arabic, Greek and English.
That would be an entire other topic and I don't want to de-rail.

Great thread.

What I would really like to see from the OP is an example of a human that wasn't a human to start with,this has nothing to do with religion it has to do with fact,sounds like someones opinion,no examples can be given

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
What I would really like to see from the OP is an example of a human that wasn't a human to start with,this has nothing to do with religion it has to do with fact,sounds like someones opinion,no examples can be given

I don't understand! Do i have to pic and choose what is religion in the bible?

How do i choose what is religion and what is not?

Can i assume that you dont believe that the creation of life is a part of our religious believes?

To be honest i don't really understand what you mean with your reply.

I can't prove that a human always was a human. But i hardly think a human always was a human. The bible does say that God created man from dust. But to be honest i don't think God did that physically. The way the verse is formulated. The creation of man is described differently than the creation of organic matter (grass and seed).

When i get to that part of Genesis i might have a explanation of how a human evolved within the whole process.

I would think that the decayed organic matter from plants and so on play a big role in the creation of man. But as i have said i haven't come that far yet. I am still on verse 11.

reply to post by spy66


Believe it or not, grass grows. So God planted the seed first, so what. Doesn't mean the grass "evolved" into what it is now. lol

Originally posted by DeltaCommando5
reply to post by spy66

 

Believe it or not, grass grows. So God planted the seed first, so what. Doesn't mean the grass "evolved" into what it is now. lol

Correction God did not plant the grass or the seed. Organic matter was created by the binding elements within the firmament earth. Do to a long cooling process. The verse also specifically say: whose seed is in itself, upon the earth.

The seed did not evolve under ground but on the surface.

I know this might not be important to you. And i respect that. But still, I think there are others besides you who have a different opinion or something knowledgeable to add.

Originally posted by spy66



The creation of Life.
....

The way i see it, we have a lot to learn about the whole creation part by studying the scientific knowledge about evolution. Verse 11 in Genesis chapter 1 confirms that. So now religious believers and evolutionists have less to argue about. In my opinion evolutionists have been on the right track all along. And the religious believers have been ignorant and in denial of proper knowledge.

Spy6, I just need you to clarify something. In your statement above are saying that man evolved instead of a direct creation by God? If so, evolved from what?

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by spy66



The creation of Life.
....

The way i see it, we have a lot to learn about the whole creation part by studying the scientific knowledge about evolution. Verse 11 in Genesis chapter 1 confirms that. So now religious believers and evolutionists have less to argue about. In my opinion evolutionists have been on the right track all along. And the religious believers have been ignorant and in denial of proper knowledge.

Spy6, I just need you to clarify something. In your statement above are saying that man evolved instead of a direct creation by God? If so, evolved from what?

Yes i am saying that man evolved. And was not physically made by God.

The evolving of man was already in the cards when the creation happened from the very beginning. God specifies in the beginning that he is going to create a heaven and a earth. That is Gods intention before he initiates the creation.

In the Bible we are given the impression that when God said: let there be, things suddenly appeared. The only thing that suddenly appeared was the light in verse 3.
The light appeared do to a compression of energy. "God is creating the firmament" that is were the light must be coming from, because light needs a source of some kind to be light.

The compression was initiated by what the last sentence in verse 2 is describing. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This movement is the cause of light.

In verse 4. God is not physically separating light from the darkness. The light it self is doing that. "God saw the light and it was good".

Verse 2 confirms that everything was darkness before the light appeared.

The light it self is the first indication we get of how this system is going to work, because light travels/expands. How the system is going to work is further explained in verse 6.

In verse 6 God also confirms that he created the firmament "not just earth", when he said: Let there be light. God confirms what he created by saying: Let the firmament be in the midst of the waters.

Verse 2 describes what the waters must be. And it can't be H2O like traditional explanations indicate that it is. Because earth has no form and void. And there is nothing but darkness upon the deep. Verse 2 describes a infinite dimension of energy. And that the infinite dimension of water/energy is nothing but darkness.

Verse 6: Describes how the system is going to work by saying: Let "it" the firmament divide the waters from the waters. The finite firmament would without doubt divide the finite waters from the infinite waters, by emitting energies.

If you understand what i have tried to explain so far. God did not physically create Man from dirt. Man was already in the cards from the beginning. Man must have evolved do to how the system is working. Gods creation works by how finite matter and energies change and expand.

I am still on verse 11, and how earth brought forth organic matter. So i don't know yet, how Man evolved within all this yet. To be honest, i don't even think i will figure it out.

Originally posted by jokei
reply to post by spy66

 

I think there you have the entire crux of the Atheist/Theist argument. Now, not to disagree for the sake of it, but I definitely wouldn't call it God, nor Gray... it's a tough thing to conceptualise when - let's face it, none of us has had "direct" experience of the force of creation.

We never will know one way or another, but kudos to you, this is one of the first OPs I've seen that has tried to address this without be combatative. The main thing I think we should consider is that even if we can't agree, we can still be nice and rational about it and importantly that we're discussing ideas.

Not sure how much more I can contribute at this point, but I'll be keeping tabs and seeing how it goes.

I want your opinion on one matter.

Would you agree that the infinite is a constant?

The infinite must be infinitely large and infinitely small at the same time. So the infinite would have no reason to expand or retract. It would just be.

Would you agree?

If it is a constant, how do we explain the changes if there is no mind/intelligence behind it?



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


Frankly - I don't know, but I'll attempt to answer as best I can and maybe this is a bit lazy but I'll answer a question with a question:

When you say is the infinite a constant do you mean this as opposed to a variable?

That's how I'm reading it, so that's how I'll try to answer.

I think that I am a tiny, tiny part of an ecosystem here on earth (this can be extrapolated), the earth part of the solar system, solar system < Galaxy < Galaxies < Universe < Universes... ad infinitum, it just goes on and on. I'm of the background that believes in science, science as the attempt to understand our surroundings - so I do think that as nature is governed by "rules" so it goes throughout the whole of existence.

From the above I would summarise that the infinite IS a constant... yet we also have to consider the scope of variables and anomalies that can and do occur - natural disasters, disease, plagues etc - not wishing to be doom and gloom, there are also good variables and anomalies - meeting new people, hearing a song that pleases you or just waking up and feeling good.

I think though, that the variables given the power of understanding - say a mega-computer - could actually be predicted and tabulated to a very accurate degree, which would seem to imply a constant.

Frankly, I don't know. I hope my answer isn't too wishy-washy and it's only based on what I think and feel about the essence of existence.

reply to post by spy66

I’m curious spy66, where do you place the Lord Jesus in your scenario? If you say “that man evolved. And was not physically made by God”, then how would you explain his statements below?

Mark 10:6-9:
“However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He made them male and female. On this account a man will leave his father and mother, and the two will be one flesh’; ....”

Compare with Gen 1:27, 28

"And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them...said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection ...every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

I’ll await your reply.

In the meantime here’s my take based on facts:

Since Jesus is a real person his mentioning Adam and Eve (male/female) as being created by God fundamentally prove their existence as factual. In addition, both the apostles Paul and Luke mentioned their existence as factual (1Tim 2:12-14, Luke 3:23-38). Add also the known location of the Garden of Eden - establish as a fact (Gen 2:10-14).

As for their physical attributes, Gen1:28 says that they were given the responsibility of taking care of the earth and its contents. Thus we can conclude that they were fully grown, fully developed human beings, lacking nothing, able to think and reason on their own when they were created.

In fact the two couples were perfect in every way – of course until they disobeyed God and sinned, thus here we are in an imperfect state needing a savior (John 3:16).

So based on these simple facts, what you said below is way off “track”.

“In my opinion evolutionists have been on the right track all along. And the religious believers have been ignorant and in denial of proper knowledge.”

On the contrary, to me it is evolution that is “ignorant and in denial of proper knowledge“ as evidence by the fact that it is not able to explain logically the “Creation of Life”. And judging by your comments below you already knew this.

“So i don't know yet, how Man evolved within all this yet. To be honest, i don't even think i will figure it out.”

As for your next statement below:

“If you understand what i have tried to explain so far. God did not physically create Man from dirt”

I’m quite surprised. Unless you ignored it or didn’t know, it is contrary to what is stated at Gen 2:7. It says:

“And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of “dust” from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul”

Note also Gen 1:27 – it mentions that “man”, that is Adam and Eve were made “in His image”! What do these statements mean?

Well it simply means what it says; that “man” was formed from the “DUST” of the “GROUND”. As for them being created “in His image”, it simply means that in addition to possessing a beautiful and wonderful physical attributes “man” also possess the qualities of his (their) creator such as: LOVE, WISDOM, POWER and JUSTICE.

FACT: do you know that the word “DUST” here (Hebrew ‘aphar’ – clay mortar) is scientific – i.e. elements found on the “DUST of the ground” and on homo-sapiens are IDENTICAL.

So try as you may, this God dishonoring evolution theory is incompatible with the Biblical Creation. No matter how hard the scriptures are twisted and turned the two can’t be combined, period! One will be on the “track” of lies if one continues on this pursuit.

On the other hand, the Lord Jesus said “the truth will set you free” from meaningless theories if you follow “the way”! (John 8:32, 14:6)

As for the entire Creation account mentioned in Genesis – here’s what I said on another thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

CyLater..

reply to post by edmc^2


This was quite a lot of information. I will read your post carefully and than see if i can give a proper answer.

I will answer you when i comprehend your questions. It might take all day. The Bible is a tough cocky to interpret properly

reply to post by edmc^2


I think I can answer some of your questions already.

Mark 10:6-9:

“However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He made them male and female. On this account a man will leave his father and mother, and the two will be one flesh’; ....”

In mark verse 10 it states from the beginning of creation he made…
Here God already had it all planed how he’s creation was going to be. Because God say’s: from the beginning of creation. That means before God created anything, God already had plans for male and female to evolve out of/from the creation.


Compare with Gen 1:27, 28

"And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them...said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection ...every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

In this verse God is just confirming the next step within evolution.



Verse 24 genesis chapter 1 explains:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Now notice what verse 25 is saying:

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

As you can see God is really not creating anything earth is. God is just taking the honers, because this is how he had it planed from the very beginning.
Verse 24 also applies for verse 26 and 27.






[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by edmc^2


I also think i can answer you next question too.

“And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of “dust” from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul”

If you read verse 24 carefully you will understand how Man was made. "By earth". God said: Let earth bring forth all living creatures….. We are living creatures too.

Note also Gen 1:27 – it mentions that “man”, that is Adam and Eve were made “in His image”! What do these statements mean

The image God created man in was not by he’s shape, but by he's mind and intelligence. Our mind and intelligence is dominant above any other creature that has ever evolved before and after us. Our mind and intelligence is the image of God.

EDIT:

And yes, the truth has set me free. But your still stuck in translation. I have solved the code. You have done nothing but learn the traditional teachings of magic. And your finding it very hard to believe the truth.

I am really sorry to say the above, because it will make you even more distant to the truth. Because you are now offended. By that i am very sorry. But its not my fault really. The knowledge you posses is all yours. And i cant do nothing about it. What you make of all this is all up to you.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


I've always found that verse fascinating. Now I personally don't think the writers of the Bible knew how evolution worked but the verse saying that God told the Earth to bring forth life is reminiscent of abiogenesis and evolution.

What I don't understand is why many Creationists limit God to only using magical creation. Some believe that God couldn't have used abiogenesis or evolution to bring about life, that God could have only conjured life into being supernaturally. But everything about life is natural and all the evidence we find points to natural evolution not magical creation. So isn't it much more accurate to say that if there is a God He/She/It used evolution? I think its a far preferable idea to believing that life on Earth was just part of a week long magic trick.

[edit on 14-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

the original language reads:

elohim (plural) said, earth sprout grass, grass sow seed, fruit tree make fruit kind, whose seed earth.