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posted on May, 11 2010 @ 12:19 PM
What is an Archetype?

The idea of the Archetype is first attributed to Plato. Its basic meaning centers around the idea of a model, a structure, a stereotype.

This is its basic meaning. At another level of meaning one soon sees that its power extends around the minds of humans everywhere.

If explored one soon finds that Archetypes are communicated to mankind using symbols.

This is why those who colonize plant a flag. A marker. A marker/flag/totem displays who you are. It displays your Archetype or your country's archetype or your "people group" archetype. This form of Archetype is practiced by many animals as well as by the Human primate. Bears mark tress, wolves, cougars, mice, all mark with signs in their culture.

In Psychology the idea of the Archetype describes the model of behavior that centers around the personality of the individual. In Alchemy the Archetype centers around the "people groups". (again this is a brief)

So to summarize the Archetype is a mental model upon which we map out our behavior.

Lets play a game.

I will state a word and in your mind will pop the Archetype. (for our sake we will call these archetypes although strictly speaking they are but a symbol of the deeper, true Archetype)

God.....what picture comes to mind?

Hippie...what picture comes to mind?

Mother...what picture comes to mind?

Scientist...what picture comes to mind?

Father...what picture comes to mind?

Son...what picture comes to mind?

Daughter...what picture comes to mind?

The make up of the above questions, ever so brief, allows you to begin to explore the pictures or symbols that you have internalized and that now, in a sense, govern you and your ideas.

The pictures or symbols allow you to make a mental map. This allows us to navigate in a safe pattern unless a dictator/ruler/ gets a hold of these ideas and then they (the archetypes) will be manipulated to emphasize whatever belief pattern the dictator has internalized.

If we briefly examine some Primal or true archetypes we can begin to map our behavior to a certain degree.

Jungs basic Archetypes are as follows.

The Self The coherent whole
The Shadow repressed, undeveloped, hidden
The Anima male image of female
The Amimus female image of male
The Persona the mask (the mask is how we project our self to the world while at the same time protecting our self)
These are cross cultural as well as cross species. (animals map their behavior using archetypes)
These can be viewed as psychic organs.

So quickly lets look at the evolutionism Archetype which evolved to the construct of The Mother.

All creatures have a mother, OK, maybe not all, lol, (Seahorses)

The archetype that evolved into the picture/construct/symbol of the mother ties into first level of consciousness namely your survival.

As a sperm you raced toward a desired end finding solace in a egg. The egg meant survival as the fact is that all the other sperm you raced with "died" except you. You found solace in the egg. This gave you life. This also began to form your awareness(consciousness) in the same way the union of sperm and egg began to form your future body.

This developed into the animus/anima...view image of male/female...

The driving force behind you finding in the womb...that awareness or construct is the actual archetype.

The fertilized egg found survival as well. The union created the conditions upon which both the sperm and the egg survive and find solace together in the womb which provides food/warmth/shelter.

All of the above together begins to form the self and the shadow/animus/anima/persona.

( the self...symbolized by a circle...fertilized egg as well as the anima/animus...symbolized by the penis/womb/vagina...very primal acts evolve to our primal construct of archetypes)

So that is a brief on Archetypes.

Feel free to explore these ideas as I am no expert so you may discover that I am right and/or wrong.

One step deeper.

Moses, who was a master of Archetypes having been trained by the Court of the Pharaoh, stipulated that we are to make no graven image after receiving the commandments. (I understand that the commandments are different in different Bibles)


What harm can one do by making a dead (living) stone into what your mind stipulates as a "god"?

The harm can derive through Anthropomorphism. Attaching human behavior to other creatures animate or inanimate.

In other words we begin to attach human ideas to the little "god" which we then internalize and the projected image of a Archetype begins to form inside oneself. This begins a cycle of attaching your values to the "little god" and then you act on your/its values with a sense of justification as these values just happen to be the same values of your "little god". Your archetypes have become your "little god" as you will tend to interpret incoming data based upon how you picture or symbolize the incoming data and then you will act according to the mental map given to you by the symbols.

Another example along a different line.

Long hair, leather, beard, tattoos, motorcycle...what comes to mind?

How you personally interpret the above data will then direct you in how you act around the guy wearing leather, tattoos, long hair, beard, motorcycle.

If you have a closer encounter with the above picture and it turns out this "person" does not fit the stereotype of the long haired, tattooed, motorcycle symbol you have personally developed then it upsets you applecart a little and you then need to attach other mental symbols to this incoming data.

How could one predict behavior around this idea?

So lets imagine that we live in a culture in America 150 years ago and lets try and attach some values to that culture through the construct which becomes the symbol or archetype of the mother.

Lets examine the single older female(30ish..lets say as on average most women are married by that time in our pretend subculture in America 150 years and buggy transport/ bible/newspapers/gossip main info source) who seems happy etc in a subculture yet she has no children, seems well taken care of and still displays great feminine beauty.


What pops into your mind....

Does she fit the idea or construct of the Great Mother?

Or does she fit the idea of the Lilith?

Lets say that our Lilith persona begins to construct herself around this image and the disaster/death/disease strike the subculture.

Then how would the subculture act?

This is of course a very limited/construct of how archetypes are used in a culture.

At one time a women who did not fit the subcultures construct could be categorized as a witch or scapegoat for the subculture. This by the way...the lilith/witch symbol ties into the construct behind the archetype of the Great Mother as well.

So if you would bring to mind some of the ideas of Egypt such as the Myth of Horace or in Plato's time the myth of Hercules and the try to apply the Archetypes to acts of History one can explore how Western Society revolves around ancient Archetypes.

One of Western Society's most honored archetype revolves around the Builder/Son.

The Builder/Son archetypal sacrifices his pleasure to build structure not only for his family such as his mother and siblings but also for his community.

We can see this in American society.

Lets briefly explore American Archetypes.

As American as Mickey Mouse.
As American as Apple pie.

Lets look at those.

Mickey Mouse is the alchemist wizard, the capitalist, the underdog (mouse) who always wins.

Apple pie brings pictures of mum, the comforting smell of apple pie brings on the ideas of home as well as the fruit of the American myth of Johnny Appleseed.

So briefly we can see two symbols of America and of course we have many others.

Lets look at America's three carved mountains.

Both Rushmore, located in the sacred Black Hills of South Dakota as well as Stone Mountain embody American Archetypes.

Crazy Horse mountain being constructed by the First Nations in the Black Hills points toward the prophet/warrior archetype of a people group.

The fact that they are constructed out of stone on mountains points to permanent values of which an American Archetype can be established. These monuments can be used to manipulate peoples minds as they are a symbol of the idea of America.

The ideas above shows how one could observe the use of symbols to govern a populace as well as allowing one to peak at the future.

This idea is as old as Babylon. In fact Daniel was another person who was well versed in this form of Alchemy.

1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his god in Babylonia [a] and put in the treasure house of his god.

3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility- 4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians
Daniel 1:1 to 4

They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king's service.
vs 5

So Daniel was trained but "separation" needed to take place.

Separation is needed in order to observe the archetype. Think of how God separates a prophet or a shaman or a king or a ruler. This separation allows for the Union of the cultures as well.

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 12:42 PM
The separation takes place in many cultures.
In Sioux culture, Crazy Horse separated himself from his "people group" to find himself and then he took power from this.

Apparently he did not separate himself enough as he fell in love with a young Sioux maiden but was expressly forbidden to be with her by the Elders.

He transgressed the elders advice and was stripped of his some of his authority.

He then face his "shadow" and emerged as the sacrificial son for the Sioux Nation. His "spirit" was never captured so he was able to overcome the invading American military in South Dakota.

With Daniel the separation is a little different. He refused to partake in what the King offered him.

Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, 12 "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. 16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

So Daniel's act of separation gave him the ability to observe Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian Culture from an outsider viewpoint (a culture can be viewed as a womb) and at the same time he was able to preserve the Jewish/Hebrew culture in the womb of Babylon as an insider in the Kings court.

Can you see the archetypes at play here?

notice the next verse...

17 To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.

Daniel in the act of separating himself from Babylon was protected by Babylon and given the gifts to understand dreams and visions by God in leau of his separation/inclusion.

His dream/vision interpretation not only saved the Hebrew nation it saved/blessed Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon as well.

Daniel's ability to interpret symbols which are the construct of our archetypes gave him the ability to map out the dream given to Nebuchadnezzar by God.

In summary the ability to view the actions of the symbols which are the manifestation of the archetypes allowed the subculture of Nebuchadnezzar's court to see into the future of mankind.

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 01:05 PM
So what happens when a subculture begins to utilize the ideas of prediction and archetypes?

It is a multifaceted question as it will polarize as well as bring union.

Right now our media is bathing our minds in the ideas of Apocalypse.

Volcanoes,earthquakes, wars, rumors of war, famine etc.

When we as human beings face such things it triggers a common reaction.

We want order out of all of the chaos presented to us.

Some look for a Savior/Messiah.

We begin to look at others with suspect.

We begin to create scapegoats.

The symbols presented to us will ignite the desire for order.

The order out of the chaos is brought to manifestation through the use of symbols.
We will internalize and project as a society what is given to us by our archetypes.
We as a society begin to gravitate toward the safety of the order of our archetypes.
order out of chaos . and mankind will act out according to its internal guide toward safety/order/mother/womb.

Order out of chaos.


So one of my pet theories centers around the idea that everything is "alive". Jesus Christ said that the stones would cry out as a witness.

He was in fact stating a alchemy secret as well as the natural order of life given to us by our Father God. (archetype)

In essence the idea that "stone" will bear witness plays itself first in the idea of "living stones".

Does this point to the idea that our gods carved in stone are really living deities?

Are the ideas of Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, Crazy Horse, Jefferson Davies still alive? Does their "psyche" live in each person under their flag?

Jesus and King David both described men as "gods"! read psalms and gospels.

Are these ideas based upon the ideas of the ideas of some other entity?

Or is the general makeup of the group consciousness of a subculture perhaps living? Does it need a source of energy to live and can it reproduce?

We have made graven images of our gods in our respective society.

Man made dead stones.

God creates living stones.

God will make living stones for a witness. Who is this god?

What force of nature or what force of mankind caused leaders such as Hitler, Reagan, Gandhi, Moses, Napoleon, Stalin, rise to power?

Was it their own cunning or was/is something else driving those individuals to become figures of myth upon which people will gravitate around?

I am poking at the idea that we create our own best/worst ideas and by the force of natural selection the ideas are put to the test.

We then as mankind, as a large conscious entity, are confronted daily with the challenge of survival and we use our inner symbols to bring forth our leaders from the froth and water of the ocean of human consciousness.

We create and destroy our reality.


I have limited time to write a thread so bare with me and this stuff is all off the cuff so to speak.

Anyhow if we look back at the sperm/egg idea we see emergence.

When the new child is born we see emergence.

With death or when we leave this womb of earth we will see emergence.

from the sperms point of view we have stepped from the "womb" and excuse my french....the "womb" of the nutsack to the egg.

That was a step.

Now we have emerged from the womb of our mother to the womb of the earth our new mother.

When we die we leave this earth/this plane to "heaven" or "above"!

This is another step.

Lets us examine the other side. Yin/yang The shadow/persona.

Lets pretend that you are a sperm who wins the holy race and you are born into the most dire circumstances.

The bible hints at this.
Jesus said it would have been better for Judas to not have been born.

So you get the egg. You are safe in the womb. Well maybe/maybe not!

New Race lost?

Lets say you get past this stage and your mother is a drug addict in Rio down in Brazil.

Race lost?

Not yet....?!

You have a lot going against you as you were born into chaotic circumstances.

Now it is up to that individual to make order out his own personal chaos.

We each need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is what we are doing here on earth in this womb if viewed upon in this way.

But..yet this is but a vertical view and vertical views can be dangerous.

Horizontal views that take in the vertical views are the views which one needs in this life.

Our leaders such as Thomas Jefferson saw the horizon that is why he is a "living stone".

Crazy Horse saw that he must never give up his "identification" and in so doing became a living stone saying..WR paraphrase...our land is where our people are buried.....

So the ideas have taken on a form. They have become the manifestations of American Archetypes.

Ask yourself this?

Would Thomas Jefferson ever want a mountain carved in his likeness?

Hell know!

It went against all he believed in. lol

Would Crazy Horse ever want his image captured by a photograph?

Hell no...he thought it captured part of a mans spirit or soul. Yet now Crazy Horse is being carved in a mountain. his image is captured.

The above are examples of polarization.

The same happened to Jesus Christ.

When men bowed down to worship him he pointed them back to God and said to call no man father, teacher, rabbi, Messiah.

Yet he has become the Rabbi/teacher/Messiah and father...(father of all Christians in a metaphysical sense)

So this is but a very small piece of some cycles.


To summarize our "archetype makeup", our perosna/shadow rna/dna tag creates the opposite.

Thomas Jefferson did not in any way want his figure to be above any man. He helped to come up with the whole idea of inalienable rights.

Yet his figure head is now above America in the conquered sacred hills of the Sioux nations.

Crazy Horse never wanted his image captured as he thought it would capture his soul is now captured in The Black Hills of South Dakota.


Union comes through the act of polarization.

We are brought to bear under the union of Thomas Jefferson ideals as this is one of the faces we have erected that represents America.

The fact that he stood against Tyranny and respected the equality of mankind flies in the face of his image being carved in a mountain in Rushmore.

Remember Jesus saying that fathers of the Pharisees and Sadducee killed the prophets and that they, the Pharisees and Sadducee`s erect monuments to the very prophets they killed. Same idea.

The egg/sperm union brought life and death to both as they were never the same afterward.

So although Crazy Horse died while holding fast to `his own personal vision`of who he was as a Sioux leader it would have seemed that his ideas would have died with him.

Yet the ideas of Crazy Horse will be with the land of North America so long as the Crazy Horse mountain should stand.

The above are examples of polarization...union.

Also looking at Crazy Horse we see another thing.

The act of erecting this monument ties the Sioux nation and thereby the all First Nations to this land shared with Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, Lincoln, Davies, and Crazy Horse.

This archetype display or alchemical mix mixes the subcultures of America together.

We can no longer be separated as we have adopted each others values.

Think of the names of many sports teams. What value does the symbol of the Atlanta Braves bring to mind?

Well thats it.

I hope you see how this all works together.

By looking at our selves here in NA we can see that we are a mixture of values.
edit (doorbell rang)
We portray ourselves to the world as free, fun, wealthy.
This is our collective NA perosna.
We as a collective in North America strive to put on a persona to cover our shadow. Our shadow is becoming apparent to the world.

The Catholic Church is in the same mess. Shadow/persona struggle

So are we in Canada and the United States and Mexico. Shadow/persona struggle.

We are deep in a shadow/persona complex. lol

Any Jungian out their who see this or challenge this?

[edit on 11-5-2010 by whiteraven]

posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:05 PM
I see what you mean.

It is as the saying goes, "Divide and conquer"

Our mirror selves, our image is what consequently puts us in this so called game of life.

History shows this over and over and a perfect example is Jesus Christ. Who knows if he was white, black, red or even asian? But his image is all over the world and conditionally over time we, the people accept this to be the savior of our sins.

But what if i told you all you had to is look in the mirror...the savior is present with you and looks like you.

We're all pieces to this game. We're all actors/actresses in this world and the images that appear can ruin or help the situation.

The situation? Ego, the present living ego that binds with the Id (want) and the Super-ego (moral) and who is conflict with the Ego? Your own self. So do we kill or end our other self, the Ego?

No, but we can transform it and endure suffering, pain and etc. Control is the one thing we can only manifest within and should not from the outside, to the world. With other people in the world, the master-slave dilema can only end from being a master within.

Once we can solve the present's problem, the road to a better future is well ahead and clearer than ever. The past are just occurances that should be remembered because if learning weren't a tool that we humans use, we would never be here or perhaps live a different lifestyle.

The archetype are a metaphor and in this life, I believe if one has faith in becoming true to himself...then his world is free because he willed it.

Very good whiteraven...

posted on May, 13 2010 @ 02:20 PM
reply to post by adkchamp

I believe if one has faith in becoming true to himself...then his world is free because he willed it

True to yourself.....! Word of the day.

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