The Danger of Spirituality

I have just been having a discussion with someone on another forum, and its got me thinking. Either he's just a forum troll or he's an example of why we're all in a mess.

The argument based on the current national, and global situation, I have a feeling that something isnt quite right and things can escalate at any moment. Although I hope I am wrong.

The problem is, that the other person insists that positive thought alone will solve our problems, as he believes reality is based on our thoughts. I do not discount this belief at all I actually agree in part.

The danger lies in that he believes its the ONLY way. He thinks that people who want to actually do something, and try and stop the crap from happening in the first place, are focusing on the negative and in doing so feed it. Instead of just sitting around thinking happy thoughts and waiting for a magical event to happen.

Now this has set alarm bells off in my head because that is EXACTLY how I was taught to think by religion. How many times have you heard a christian, or muslim or whatever say something along the lines of "its god's plan" and "god will fix it". Its the same thing in my opinion.

I fail to see how preventing something bad from happening yourself is a negative course of action compared to just hoping it will go away and waiting. If someone can enlighten me please do. I do not discount spirituality completely, I just think that people miss the point of it. We are still physical beings on a physical planet, with physical dangers and physical pleasures. Until we evolve beyond this realm, the physical laws apply to us.

If everyone is positive and just waits for a magical event, then I fear that they will be waiting a very long time. The enemy will not be defeated and instead will just get stronger. However if those same people actually got up and actively DID something, the outcome would be different and there might be hope for our race.

I'd like to read other people's views on this so I can maybe understand where he is coming from, because I'm quite simply stumped. I dont get it.

as much as I am for spirituality, I agree. And spirituality for me is more about self empowerment anyway. People think it's crap and does nothing but internal things don't really know what it's really about. Then again, I only look for the self empowerment/development/improvement aspects, though not necessarily for malicious intent of course. I do want to help myself as well as others but I can't help others without myself. I think it is way more important than what they teach in most public schools nowadays. They dont teach you much except to get a job or some material things... but personal development? no.

it's like.. how can you do something which takes you to use your brain but you dont learn how to use it, at least in full, in the first place? They don't teach you anything about life or what really matters first! And my parents didn't teach me that's for sure. Maybe they went through the same.

So yea.. people who talk about 'being positive etc.' really miss a point. Some are even hypocrites, 'holier than thou' stuck-up types who like to bash 'negative people' and rob them of any hope leaving them up to themselves when they dont even have that. that internal peace at least which would help them. I tell you it would be nice to learn internal peace but that is an extremely abstract thing. it all depends on personal experience, and a person who just 'doesn't get it' is not 'stupid', 'amoral', etc. He too has to learn, perhaps it's harder for him. When you're not at peace, you are not at peace, simple as that. It largely depends on physical factors, which most people fail to admit since they might fear others judgments of them.

So yeah.. it's good to learn all that spiritual stuff, but for the time being that you are not spiritually developed, it does take work to 'attain peace' and stuff. And most of the time you also do need peace to even do something productive in the physical. But now people think it's all about inner peace and living in some pseudo fantasy world in their minds with no basis in physics! And then bash others for not getting it, or get mad and think they're just stupid or something...

People have got to realize it's not that easy. When it's hard, It Is hard. Don't you think that if the person knew everything he would have already solved all his/her problems, if it was that easy for him?

So please all you 'self realized' people, have some understanding. It may piss you off but things may not be the way they seem. Until you lose it all then you might realize what it is to suffer and not be on cloud 9 all the time, and how hard it might be to get back up. Have patience with others, even if they dont 'get it' like you 'did.'

[edit on 22-4-2010 by The Quiet Storm]

[edit on 22-4-2010 by The Quiet Storm]

I dont beleive its the only way but i do think it helps.

Im a very optimistic person, even when i'm down in the dumps i still cling onto the little hope i have and things seem to work out, just.

I had a hard time with money recently after losing my job, i remained as possitive as possible even though bills had to be paid etc..

What happened is things randomly fell into place, i got calls from people who owed me money... they rang me not the other way around. I found ways around stuff which i never knoew before etc..

I cant prove this with concrete evidence but it seems if you think negatively then you attract negativity (spelling??) - seen plently on threads on here about that

Just my opinion

Considering humanity's collective Thought created this reality, I'd stop and re think my position on the power of positive thought!

Have you also noticed how much better you feel inside when you are thinking of something positive rather than negative?

If the whole of humanity switched to focusing on the positive, imagine how quickly our world would change.

Thoughts are the building blocks of creation.

The problems of the world are not "God's Plan".

All the suffering in this world is a result of evil behavior of man, or of natural disaster or accident.

God does not cause us to suffer, we cause it.

Suffering is the price of free will. Almost all belief systems include a story of mankind being separated from the divine due to a desire for free will.

Nice thoughts alone won't save us. We are responsible for our actions and until the "critical mass" of humanity realizes that we need to put aside our differences and work together then we are bound for a bad ending.

Originally posted by Lucifer84
I dont beleive its the only way but i do think it helps.

Im a very optimistic person, even when i'm down in the dumps i still cling onto the little hope i have and things seem to work out, just.

I had a hard time with money recently after losing my job, i remained as possitive as possible even though bills had to be paid etc..

What happened is things randomly fell into place, i got calls from people who owed me money... they rang me not the other way around. I found ways around stuff which i never knoew before etc..

I cant prove this with concrete evidence but it seems if you think negatively then you attract negativity (spelling??) - seen plently on threads on here about that

Just my opinion

Well it seems you dont need much help to think of positive things then. Other people might need to work harder or get help, since all they know is negative.

Besides maybe you do have lots of positive things to think about. A lot of others don't.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by The Quiet Storm]

I'm not saying one shouldn't think positive.. but thinking Only positive has it's faults.

If you deny the negative it will come back and bite you in the ass. You can turn a negative into positive anyway. That's not the same as "just thinking positive" because you're not denying the "negative". It's all a matter of how you view it right?

If that's what you say then why do you then call one person as negative, and a situation as negative and another positive? Then get mad and reject it.

Im not saying you can't choose your thoughts, but usually when someone neglects another for being negative it's because they view that person negatively, and his/her situation as negative as well, so it doesn't help.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by The Quiet Storm]

reply to post by Firefly_


Who is this enemy you speak of? Are they not human as well? The enemy is ourselves. Therefore, true change must come from within. Or are you proposing we fight fire with fire, bombs with bombs, and guns with guns? It may sound cliche but the "war" will only be won with love.

Thanks for painting a broad brush over spirituality, and what is your argument? A stupid poster?

BTW possitive thoughts are very strong imagine that everyone can have possitive thoughts it would immediatly change everything. I now am in the most possitive and happy period iv ever been in and I don't see any danger, I see it, but it doesn't hit me.

I know that i will do the right thing when it has to be done, but I'm not afraid. Am i a crazy spiritualist to you now? NO

I'm simply at ease with the world with how things will go and with everything basicly, its a state that is truely blissful, and you just interpret the whole notion wrong because you reflect your negativity.

I talk about possitive things and you will search for ways to spin this to a negative paradigm because you are negative. possitivity has brought me more in my life then anything else and it will bring this world everything too if enough people practice it.

Oh and btw possitivity does not equal lazyness, we can all be possitive and then start to change the world. Try to change it now, its not gona work, why not? Because people at this time just don't understand what its all about. But it will come, however slow we have time.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by colloredbrothers]

Originally posted by Firefly_

The problem is, that the other person insists that positive thought alone will solve our problems, as he believes reality is based on our thoughts. I do not discount this belief at all I actually agree in part.

Positive thought alone will solve our problems? Sorry, but that is completely ridiculous. Positive thought alone does not pay your bills, fill your stomach or get you over an illness. Sounds like this person was either completely naive or completely high.

Originally posted by Puresilence
reply to post by Firefly_

 

Who is this enemy you speak of? Are they not human as well? The enemy is ourselves. Therefore, true change must come from within. Or are you proposing we fight fire with fire, bombs with bombs, and guns with guns? It may sound cliche but the "war" will only be won with love.

If you were stabbed numerous times for no good reason AND you could do nothing about it. You feel unbearable pain. Who's fault is it?

Are you going to say "it's me because I have not trained myself to be able to withstand torture and pain and unstoppable situations".

?

Thanks for your replies.

The enemy against not only us regular people but the entire planet. The people who will sell out his friend, family and neighbour for personal gain. The people who wont care about gutting the planet to make money. The people who will destroy rainforests so they can grow our genetically modified food. The people who make false medicines for us with chemicals that can seriously alter the environment. Knowing full well what their actions cause they still continue without any guilt or remorse. The people who create weapons of such destruction a war consisting of their use could wipe out the majority of life on this planet.

These are all physical problems on a physical planet, where physical action needs to be taken. No I am not thinking of fighting fire with fire. I simply want justice. Under the laws they have created to control us and sit outside of because they wrote clauses into them so they are not bound by them. They need removing from power, and the people (bankers, corporations, etc, definitely NOT us) they represent need to be dealt with too.

There is a general election in the UK soon so maybe that could be used for real democratic change for the first time ever, instead of voting in the 3 big parties. Also if enough people started boycotting certain companies then that will send a clear signal once their profits go down so will their power and the amount of MP's they can buy.

War is the last thing I want. Humans are not the only casualties in wars, there are other animals on this planet besides us and we need to remember that even if it may inconvenience us, we should find a way around it. Its not like we dont have the intelligence to, if we can create atomic weapons, we could create so much more focusing on preserving life instead of destroying.

Positive thinking is more than just that...it is the elimination of negative thinking. Maybe DWELLING on negative thinking is what I really mean. I am an extreme positive thinker, and in no way am I in denial that very negative things can and do happen. It's much better for my psyhological and emotional health to think this way. We become what we think about in a very real way. Myopia is myopia, whether you ignore the positive or the negative. Whatevery happened to balanced thinking? The way you think becomes a habit, and we know what being a slave to habits means. Maybe we should be more open minded instead of leaning one way or the other.

reply to post by The Quiet Storm


If I am stabbed multiple times and experience raw pain I will probably die and then none of it will matter will it? Basing your decisions on the idea that "bad things might happen," is what most of the world does and it creates a rift between people. What if all the great positive thinkers that have changed the world just sat locked in their homes because they thought the world was dangerous and they might get hurt?

Do allow me to offer my insignificant insight.

Positive thoughts is good and is a strength of physical empowerment. You think you can, and most likely, you will atttempt, not once but several times to achieve a goal, each time you fail.

When you fall, if you were to reflect back on the reasons analysed critically, the chances are you will get up and succeed, or move on to another better goal or longer term one within your capability.

Should you at the starting line use negative thoughts, you will never bother to try, because you think you cannot succeed and not to waste time.

Many people fail in life simply because of one's mind. It is the engine that propels your forward or a device that fails to work because you refuse to use it.

There will be some who think that positive thoughts without action is good enough. It is one sign of laziness, or it is because the philosophy of fatalism is utilised -' why bother, we are only a cog in the wheel, everything is pre-determined'.

Such beliefs unfortunately are wrong, as proven time and time again by mankind's history of survival through war and nature's ravages.

We prayed but we never gave up trying. When Black Death occured in the middle ages, our ancestors sought for cures. When everyone went hungry, the french masses rosed against the sun king louis.

When the devil Hitler striked, mankind as a whole rose up and fought. When Vietnam occured, the US masses stood before armed troopers and challenged the State peaceably.

Mankind never falthered. Mankind didnt stop praying. Mankind continued to think positively. Mankind work towards a goal courageously. And the Almighty will always lend a hand to those who wants to help themselves and others for a moral good, otherwise we all may be speaking German today.

Whatever the future holds, we need not face it with fear, for our ancestors had no such fears. We are sons and daughters of our ancestors, the blood runs in us all.

Share what we have and can, with courage, we will pull through whatever that comes and survive, if not all of us, at least our next generations will be protected, the way our forefathers had stood and done for us. Be positive!

Cheers!

reply to post by Firefly_


The people you mention are just that, people. What power do they have if everyone just stops listening to them. What if everyone just decided to stop playing by their rules, stop following their laws, and stop fighting their wars? What power would they have when they are the few and WE are the many? This is the truth of the world. These people have no power and their own greed will consume them. I actually feel bad for them because they have a LONG way to go to find themselves. Can you imagine the FEAR they must feel on a daily basis that their fake house of cards is going to fall at any moment.

Look at it this way. Everyone has their purpose. If you feel some people just want to think positive and sit on their couch meditating, then that is their purpose and they are doing their part. If you feel you must go out and do something about the physical world then that is your part and you must do it. Spirituality is not just some dude sitting on a couch meditating, it is the whole equation. It is all-inclusive. The plan is mapped out, everything is perfect and will always be. It is only a personal point of view that either believes the world is going to be rainbows and sunshine or death and concentration camps.

There is a very strong camp that doesnt want to educate the masses, I suspect this comes from "TPTB".

Awareness is crucial to all methods of countering dangers, both spiritual and resistance.
I believe very strongly in our ability to manifest and in meditation groups shining light and yearnings and wishes for a edenistic world, to counter all dangers, to shield our planet, to create complete equality, cooperation, and freedom done in grass roots ways, free from all controllers, developing our psi, inner gifts, and abilities.

However, none this is possible without awareness. Morningmayan: www.youtube.com... has a wonderful series of videos for manifesting/law of attraction and raising our frequency. She is also a supporter of Max Igan's the Great Intention, one hour world wide meditation for envisioning eden and peace. She is a political activist, and has a wonderful activist radio show of her own, with interviews.
She has done her own phone calls to representatives, questioned various authorities, and gone in to police station on behalf of the people. She brings AWARENESS of issues to the forefront.

Spiritual Thought Creates Reality/Law of Affinity, and awareness/educating oneself, go hand in hand! Awareness does not draw the negative in. It allows us to see the matrix, what's under it, what this world is truly about, and then to find a variety of methods of taking action:

Phone calls, letters, emails, lining up at their offices, phoning and writing to news editors, networking, creating a alternative dream/vision for this world and spreading it.
protests/general strikes. Whatever it takes basically, but with a lot of spiritual empowerment and unity as well. More important than anything is turning within in mediation to connect with yourself, your Higher/Future Self, and discover who you are, why you're here, that this world/universe is a hollogram. In short to wake up. Theres many ways to wake up, all the ways are important.

Lack of knowledge, understanding, staying asleep though the warnings are all around, and the world doesn't make sense, is DARKNESS. Just as much as being black hearted is!

Like David Icke said in his interview on Project Camelot, he has gotten criticism, I believe by those following the Law of One, Ra, the same Ra, in the Egyptian Trinity: Isis/Ra/Osiris (EL/Saturn). Or Is Ra El. The mystery schools from ancient times, the bloodlines. It has a lot of very idealistic principles, and probably is mixed with disinfo in critical key spots.

David Icke said: (paraphrased!) If a tornado is coming your way, and your head is in the sand, its going to spank you really hard. You need to take out of the sand, look and see the danger, and then come up with plans of action.

Awareness is very important to even begin to plan, cooperate, overcome, and to shine our lights spiritually on the issues at hand.

Positive thought won't save us if all you do is sit on your arse all day thinking positively.

What spirituality is about is carrying that positive thought with you, maintaining it throughout your day, and not being influenced by any negativity when you are making your decisions.

reply to post by Puresilence


Your first paragraph is more or less what I was trying to say. Voting them out, boycotting their products is part of it. However, there are consequences to not following their laws unfortunately, even if they are morally wrong and unjust laws.

Unity_99

I put forward a similar argument on the other site. Not as detailed as yours though. I am starting to understand a bit more.

Puresilence

I think I have been reminded of the real problem here, its that we all each have our own individual path to walk in this life. I just dont fully understand his, as its not the path I am currently on. I should be concentrating on my own path rather than trying to understand someone elses.

Thanks!

Religious thinking creates delusional people..

I don't know if "spirituality" is always bad, but it certainly can lead to the same delusional thinking that religion does.