HCR Bill Paves the Way for Amnesty for Illegal Aliens

‘‘CHAPTER 48—MAINTENANCE OF MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE

‘‘SEC. 5000A. REQUIREMENT TO MAINTAIN MINIMUM ESSENTIAL COVERAGE

‘‘(d) APPLICABLE INDIVIDUAL.—For purposes of this section—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘applicable individual’ means, with respect to any month, an individual other than an individual described in paragraph (2), (3), or (4).

‘‘(2) RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS.—

‘‘(3) INDIVIDUALS NOT LAWFULLY PRESENT.—

‘‘(4) INCARCERATED INDIVIDUALS.—

Source

(3) and (4) are located on pages 331 and 332, respectively.

I began wondering why illegal immigrants (Individuals Not Lawfully Present) were specifically exempted, from paying the tax/fine for not purchasing health insurance.

It's really easy to figure out that the IRS would not be able to enforce the mandate on illegal immigrants, so why bother writing an exemption?

My guess is that Amnesty is just around the bend. I expect it will be presented as a stop-gap measure, to the voters, who will no doubt be more enraged at the exemption. Besides the anger of the voters, how can the Democrats pass on all that extra tax/fine revenue?

Alright, first off did anyone see the announcements of the amount of people that were at the demonstrations? 200,000 was the number given. Does ANYONE realize how hypocritical this is? The number pictured in ANY of the photos is about 1/100 of the ones at the last TPM rally. Kind of funny actually.

Now for the meat of the matter.

Immigration reform and the health care bill. If anyone knows anything about government manipulation and what has been going on in regards to the SS and Medicare Debacle, they know that any Ponzii scheme requires you continually replace beneficiaries with new pigeons(investors).

The US has been keeping the island of debt/outlays flowing because of the mass infusion of immigrants into the system. Now, you have to look at what has happened over the last two years. Because of the economic downturn, we actually have a negative cashflow in both the SS system and the Medicare system.

I find it IRONIC that our problem has occurred at the same time as the SUPPOSED depression/recession due to property/mortgage fiasco. I am just trying to set a scenario for what this all means.

Everything is related. Everything for some reason has all just so happens to develop at the exact SAME time. Why is that?

I will stop here and do a little digging to push my ideas and postulations in regards to this.

Originally posted by WTFover

It's really easy to figure out that the IRS would not be able to enforce the mandate on illegal immigrants, so why bother writing an exemption?

I think that have to, the thing is a legal document, you have to put every little detail in there. Thats why its so huge and complex. I don't think it'll pave the way for amnesty. I think it will pave the way to true universal healthcare which we need.

The whole immigration issue is one I have remained ambivalent over for a number of years. On the one hand, every nation has a right to protect their borders and control the flow of immigration that happens, but on the other hand, for those who may have entered this country illegally, the idea of calling them "illegal" has always bothered me. How can a person be illegal? Further, what constitutes being "lawfully present"?

For the purposes of the law, it can be assumed that there are those who may find themselves under some sort of tort or legal situation that would require they be named in a law suit or brought before a court, who are not capable of representing themselves due to some illness, i.e., coma, vegetative state, brain damage, etc., etc., etc., which could very easily be construed as a person, for the purposes of law, not lawfully present in court, even if that person is in court physically. However, if a person if fully capable of speaking and defending themselves is in the same situation, then they it stands to reason that they are lawfully present regardless of their nationality or citizenship.

Of course, the biggest problem with this horrid HRC legislation is that it is just not Constitutional and is a gross intrusion into peoples private affairs, but beyond that, any legislation that requires more than a few pages to print the text of the law legislated is legislation that runs the risk of being to complex and difficult to understand. The law, in order to have any genuine force or weight must be understandable to those who are being made subject to it. If a person of average intelligence can't understand the law as written, then that person is not necessarily ignorant of any law, just dumbfounded by the disingenuous language of a particular bill. People who can demonstrate their ability to comprehend and understand law, but don't understand this "law" can not be held liable for any "infraction" of that "law" as long as the language remains too complex and difficult to understand.

Tautological language is not a way craft understandable legislation, and yet, Congress increasingly relies upon the circumlocution of language in order to confound and confuse the public, relying upon the ignorance of people and their normal state of affable co-operation with government. We the People must always do our due diligence in learning the laws put forth, but we must also understand the laws all ready in place and most importantly the Supreme Law of the Land which in the United States for America is The Constitution. A law is not a law because a legislature writes a law, and the Act or Bill legislated by Congress is merely evidence of law and not the law itself.

Gravity existed long before Sir Isaac Newton wrote down the mathematical equation and rights of people existed long before our Founding Fathers wrote down a Bill of Rights, and the equation of which Newton wrote and the Bill of Rights of which Madison and his brethren wrote, are not the law, but merely evidence of the law. Congress has written down their theory with this HRC legislation and if it is law, it will be discovered to be so, and if it is not law, then it is up to us all to disprove this theory of "universal health care".

I do believe that if we can reign in this current march towards socialism in the United States, and repeal the numerous acts of legal plunder existing in the U.S. today, that will do wonders in stemming the steady influx of unwanted immigration. Unlikely that we will do such a thing anytime in the near future. (sigh)

I don't know what it will do but since they really must give their full attention to working on the economy and jobs asap I hope they tackle the illegal immigration problem now, I am not in favor of amnesty or health care for illegal aliens. It's largely big corporations and corporate agri-business who love cheap and illegal labor and they get away with it by sub-contracting everything out.

The only way to tackle this problem is by instituting severe penalties for the businesses, corporations and contractors who hire them. While I'm not in favor of letting people die in the streets, I think injured or sick illegal aliens should be (minimally) medically stabilized and immediately deported.

reply to post by WTFover


I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Amnesty is the only reasonable solution to the illegal immigrant problem.

Deportation is an impossibility, especially considering that so many illegal aliens have children who are legal citizens. It would simply never work.

The government realizes this, so yes, I would say amnesty is around the corner. I don't really think it's an ideal solution, but it's the most logical and the most practical.



Now ask yourself, what exactly is your problem with illegal aliens? The fact that they don't pay taxes seems to be the lowest common denominator amongst those who are so adamantly against illegal immigrants. What happens when they are given amnesty? They start paying taxes.

So, when they are simply citizens, and not illegal aliens, what is the problem exactly?

The fact is, the only problem with illegal aliens is the fact that they're illegal. Remove the "illegal" and they are just immigrants, like you and me and just about every single person in this country (with the exception of the American Indians, of course).

reply to post by WTFover


The latest census has a potentially huge fine if you are not honest. I guess the Government wants EVERYBODY accountable yes including the illegals. Good luck with that one. However they'll grab a huge number of people I mean people who need health Insurance.

reply to post by drwizardphd


Maybe I am way off base or overly suspicious. I just sense an end around play, with this. I didn't intend this to be a discussion on the merits of amnesty, or the lack thereof. The fact that illegal immigrants were, specifically, excluded is what I found significant. Absent a "conspiracy", the verbiage was unnecessary.

reply to post by WTFover

It's really easy to figure out that the IRS would not be able to enforce the mandate on illegal immigrants, so why bother writing an exemption?

Legal BS. They have got to cover their behind.

IMO, it is to insure that they do not receive any subsidies or financial benefit from the government.

I really never post any links...just my 2 cents..
But that other thread about "March 24th being the Economic Collapse"...made me visit.... enterprisecorruption..
Found some interesting things about this Bill on his site..
The guy has been spot on with some predictions..

Good theory WTF...

From a lefty POV I would assume this was a way to smooth over righty concerns about extending "benefits" to non citizenry in a sort of cover your bases sort of way. At least thats how I see it at face value - I could see a very strong (extra) point of contention provided such a claus was not present.

But who knows really... You may be right

S+F friend



[edit on 23-3-2010 by Janky Red]

Amnesty will have to be granted...but we absolutely HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR BORDERS.

We can't deport 12 million people.....that's not the kind of country we should be....BUT...

We need to do something about those still flooding the country. It's all about jobs and their availability.

Also, if our government actually prosecuted businesses that employed illegal immigrants....it would most likely help slow down illegals crossing the borders.

They come here for work...if no one will hire them...then they are less likely to come here.

With millions of legal citizens out of jobs, adding millions isn't going to help. From what I recall, the illegals will have to pay a fine, have a background check, do community service and get in the back of the line of those who have been waiting and came through proper channels. That is the last I heard anyway.

I was wondering though, how will they catch all the gang members and murderers etc? I doubt they filled out their census forms.

Originally posted by David9176



I totally agree about the boarders -

We are seriously screwed and there is a point where we need to look after our own, much
in the same way I advocate for healthcare for all AMERICANS. I just do, I apply the same
thinking to both, as much as I like having an open country, there is a point when you have to look at it as a member of the whole... Like healthcare both are screwing over far too many, directly or indirectly

I think the liberals who want big boarder policies are a bit like the fringe cons who want Jesus involved in policy, at least thats been my experience.

[edit on 23-3-2010 by Janky Red]

I ran a business for 8 years. I got about 75 applications for employment from illegals. All i had to do was ask, that is all it took. You can tell. There are NO accidental hirings whatsoever!

Pass one law, if a businessmen is caught hiring an illegal, for each offense they do 4 weeks. BOOM, all done. No more illegals. Now, the problem is though, I myself am going cash systems.

Frell the government and frell their attitude. Any illegals, lets get some damn work done!

Pffft. That is what happens when the federal government no longer cares about the citizens of the US and only cares about taxes.

Income taxes are ILLEGAL.

reply to post by David9176


How to take care of border without breaking the bank.


1) Tamper proof social security card with picture. Still can't figure out why we still have that flimsy card.

2) Enforce regulations that already exist, especially on employers.

3)Redo the Visa system.

4)Settle the war on drugs

reply to post by jam321

1) Tamper proof social security card with picture. Still can't figure out why we still have that flimsy card.

You should see my SS card....it's literally falling apart as it's been through the washing machine MANY times. It's still holding up though...even though I've had it since birth.

The problem with the picture SS cards is that you will have people freaking out about it being a national ID card....which is the same thing Lindsay Graham is pushing.

I agree Drwizard in that amnesty will have to be granted...but we absolutely HAVE to do something about our borders. We have to protect our jobs, wages, and economy.

I think Janky is right about the extremes of the left wanting to blow out the borders....but I also think that the extreme right wanting to deport all illegals is totally insane.

Do we really want to repeat the "Trail of Tears" that we did to the Indians? I certainly don't want to see that happen.

I agree with your other points. marijuana should be legalized...that would help...but not stop it. That's the thing...people complain that government is evil...but our government is the only entity that can do anything about illegal immigration....and with that they have failed miserably.

reply to post by Janky Red

We are seriously screwed and there is a point where we need to look after our own, much in the same way I advocate for healthcare for all AMERICANS. I just do, I apply the same thinking to both, as much as I like having an open country, there is a point when you have to look at it as a member of the whole... Like healthcare both are screwing over far too many, directly or indirectly

It's hard to believe that nearly a year ago we didn't agree on anything...crazy how ideas and opinions can change.

If we are the greatest country in the world...then we should be able to get the greatest health in the world FOR ALL AMERICANS.

I think you are in the same place where I am for the most part....i want was is best for our country and the citizens within it....and I like what our country is supposed to stand for...we just need to get back to that.

I think our economy CAN turn around. I don't think we've hit the point of no return yet...although we are still due much more pain.

We can fix this...we are the USA...we've done some great things and we can do it again....we just need to pull our heads out of our asses and quite trashing our own citizens...especially those who are nothing but the victims of this recession.

Originally posted by drwizardphd
reply to post by WTFover

 

Now ask yourself, what exactly is your problem with illegal aliens? The fact that they don't pay taxes seems to be the lowest common denominator amongst those who are so adamantly against illegal immigrants. What happens when they are given amnesty? They start paying taxes.

So, when they are simply citizens, and not illegal aliens, what is the problem exactly?

The fact is, the only problem with illegal aliens is the fact that they're illegal.

Let's take your fuzzy logic a step further.

What problem do I have with murderers? They are most likely citizens of the U.S. right? Take away the fact that they are murderers and have committed a felony and they're citizens or people, just like you and me, right? Let's approve amnesty for them while we're at it since we're in the business of forgiving felonies.

As a matter of fact, let's grant everyone in prison amnesty. We all know prisons are overcrowded and it's costing the taxpayers a boatload of money to fund them. Let's let those prisoners all back into society and give them all a chance.

/*blatant sarcasm off*/

Originally posted by sos37

Let's take your fuzzy logic a step further.

What problem do I have with murderers? They are most likely citizens of the U.S. right? Take away the fact that they are murderers and have committed a felony and they're citizens or people, just like you and me, right? Let's approve amnesty for them while we're at it since we're in the business of forgiving felonies.

You're comparing the crime of murdering another human being to living in a country illegally...

And yet you accuse me of "fuzzy logic".

Well done. I can see that rational thought is obviously not your modus operandi tonight.