A challenge to all people whom want a revolution.

There is alot of talk about a political revolution in the U.S. yet I have not yet saw any clearly defined target of this revolution. In the U.S. we have had several revolts.

1. The English
2. North-South Civil War
3. The rich
4. Segregation and war
5. ???


I would like to ask who exactly is your target? When you want to rid yourself of the bad people, you must first clearly label the bad people. Is it...

1. Corporations
2. Government
5. Government and Corporations


Or are your enemies a group of people?

1. Liberals
2. Big government people
3. Welfare recipients
4. Gays
5. Immigrants
6. Minorities
7. Rich


Who is the enemy?

[edit on 3/8/10 by Misoir]

Good post...I've been thinking of doing this for some time now.

Also...where do they draw the line. Say they say that "Government" is their enemy. Does that include your local Social Security office workers? Medicare office? Doctors that recieved medicare patients? Does it include the military...they are technically "government"? Is it only the top government officials? Does that include thier direct aides? What about the secret service men who will be assigned to protect them? What about all these peoples families...are they targets too? Will they target their houses and if their children are inside...oh well??? Will they target a government building...and too bad for the cleaning crew that is inside at the time??? Or any innocent civilians taking a tour of the building?


This is why I have a problem with these revolutionaries...I don't think they have thought out what they are actually suggesting people do. I really hope it is all bravado on an internet message board and no one is insane enough to take another American citizens life. Let's pray that is the case.

reply to post by Misoir


I have one outline to 'my' revolution. The Constitution.

Therefore, enemies of the Constitution are the 'targets'.

Any senator, congressman, lawyer, judge, or government worker who either refused to uphold the rights of the Constitution, or deliberately authors, promotes, or puts in action a law that which is unconstitutional - those are the targets.

I have given this response before but opposers of revolution would ask "be more specific, WHO!?!?" There really isn't a way to be more specific. To simplify the target in one word, this is the best I can do:

5. Corruption

But people need to stop acting like this is a simple issue, like we can simply name off a list of people who are guilty and just target them. We no longer live in simple times where things are cut and dry. There are areas of gray to sift through, and to do so requires time and a resolve that can be unmatched. The revolution will ask kindly for the politicians in government to step aside and for those found to be guilty of unconstitutional acts, they will go to trial for such.

To those who would refuse to accept a trial, and would instead choose to fight us with force and power plays, then unfortunately self defense would become and issue. Rest assured, myself as a revolutionary will start no violence, however, I shall bring it about if done to me.



So many people feel like a revolution would result in the killing of random innocent people just because they are stuck with a 'government' label, but I can say that for me this isn't the case. Everyone is guaranteed their rights in my eyes and thus the only people that die will be those that will try to threaten my life or the life of another in an act not of self defense.

There is a difference between revolution and war, however, I am not blind to ignore that revolution can become a war if done sloppily or if people choose not to use their heads. That is why more then ever we have to realize that we are on the same page, we are working for the same goal, and though revolution sounds like a dirty word to some - it only becomes dirty when those who are corrupt are faced with their own fates and are made to answer for their crimes against humanity and this populace.




That is all I can really say. If you want a more specific answer, from a sane individual, you will not find one. There are going to be fringe people who claim to be patriots yet will soil the name by bringing personal beliefs into the equation, but we must look at ourselves and not let that happen.

reply to post by Misoir


I think what most people want is change....

Modern life was supposed to be about better living comfortable lives, that's what our fathers and grandfathers worked so hard for right? but what did we get?

Gangs drive-by shooting, carjackings, homeowners having to install iron bars on their windows, Ad's for bullet proof vests with built-in GPS tracking so we can let our kids play worry free in the park....

That is real life in the world today, and folks are not just sick of it, their scared too... people are capable of unbelievable things where their frightened ya know

Um this one seams pretty obvious.

If you think the enemy is gay people, welfare recipients, immigrants, and minorities...you are ignorant and naive to say the least.

It is most definitely a combination of the others.

reply to post by DaddyBare


I'm glad to hear your opinion. But if you are for a revolution you would need to simplify exactly who you think the enemies are and how a revolution would fix the problem. I 100% agree with your statement, I think the only way for freaks to let us live our lives peacefully and safe is for the people to take situations into their own hands, not the police. If enough child molestors are pursued by a group of angry citizens they would be less willing to molest a child, they don't fear the police too much or they would stop right now. The government needs to let people start taking situations into their own hands, not like anarchy, but allow us to defend ourselves and others, not just the police.

I think the target is already specified.
When someone says "government and the corporations," no one means each and every person who has ever been affiliated with one. That would be silly, stalinist. A lot of people work for corporations and/or the government who are decent privately and would simply want a more humane world. Differences of course exist in the exact vision - from Libertarian to moderate Socialist - but more and more ordinary folks agree with people labeled as "conspiracy theorists" that something is deeply wrong. They are united in what they do not want - this system has been revamped time and again but it does not work.

People's sense of justice has been upset. Something needs to be done. Corporate power - rich investor clubs mainly - have taken control of the mainstream media, political life and lawmaking, and they have been bringing laws since several decades. Laws that suit their enrichment and hinder the interests of the simple folks, the general population. Plus the same clubs tend to rip off the greater part of the world dubbed the "third world" - and when the local people do not like it, and rebel or try reforms, they inflict wars and coup d'etats. Many Americans, including myself, dislike this aspect of our government, which has been growing mammoth-size since 1980. It is all right for Americans to be more active and creative or even luckier than other nations, but it is not morally justified to rip off so-called poor countries (many of which have been victims of the greatest crime in human history - colonization).

For many Americans what is happening is against the Constitution and the will and intent of the founding fathers. For example, it is no secret that government organs are spying on simple citizens. Government enters costly wars that taypayers will have to pay for and most people do not even support. The governance of the US now is as far from the interests of its citizens as the British Empire was in the days of the American Revolution. Police apply tasers on ordinary innocent citizens for no reason at all. This has to stop. This used to be a country where people were not looked upon as guilty until proven. Now it is the reverse - like in a watered-down dictatorship. I think the only reason strict fascism has not yet taken hold is the sheer size of the country - already the borders are impossible to patrol well.

Obama has proven to be a disappointment. He continues the same wars, bails out rich corporations etc. Maybe he is better than Bush who was a nightmare (it is not particularly difficult to be better than that stumbling alcoholic) but he seems to have no power to counteract 30 years of abuse - and maybe he does not even want to. I think he may be a decent man privately but he was appointed to be the head of a corrupt organization. I am not sure I could do a better job in his place.

Yet most people that speak of a revolution these days - unlike a few generations ago - have embarked upon various roads of spiritual maturing such as meditation and would not embrace a revolution that is too violent - taking lives etc.

It may come that various communities will print their own currencies. It may happen that some states will opt out of the Union.

That is my two cents' worth.

reply to post by Misoir



What we really need is a Societal revolution...
somehow we need to re-teach ethics, personal responsibility compassion and respect. Yes even the notion of honor and duty... Honor that once made a mans word more binding than any contract! Duty to provide for and protect ones family and not skip out thus creating a huge percentage of single mothers with little or no resources...

just a cop out to blame the fat cats in Washington, the ultra rich, gays blacks Muslims or any other group you care to name...

where we failed is somehow somewhere we let it all get away from us and the end result was to put us on the doorstep to anarchy...

Sorry I don't have the answers or quick fixes...Wish I did but it took years to dig this hole were in and probably take longer to dig our way out... if anyone still cares to that is

Modern society is a vortex of radical evil from which no society will emerge because instead of aiming to transcend material and look toward the creative, soulful, ambitious side of life, modern society settles into endless bickering over redistribution of wealth and equality. It is as if humanity agreed to be hung up on its negative traits, and to fight over small matters, while ignoring the future that we can have -- and while ensuring us a doom through a system that by promoting material self-interests, guarantees we will consume our environment and ourselves. Modern society is at its essence a failure to see the big picture, mostly because of the "mass revolt" of option-limiting individual materialist/humanist morality of which Nietzsche wrote, coupled with the technology that allows us to detach from our natural worlds and build a fantasy world of our own illusion. Modern society is going inward, an emotional and psychological reaction of withdrawing, instead of accepting life's negatives (death, natural selection) as part of a beautiful process and moving on to better things.

There's your enemy.

Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by Misoir

 

What we really need is a Societal revolution...
somehow we need to re-teach ethics, personal responsibility compassion and respect. Yes even the notion of honor and duty... Honor that once made a mans word more binding than any contract! Duty to provide for and protect ones family and not skip out thus creating a huge percentage of single mothers with little or no resources...

just a cop out to blame the fat cats in Washington, the ultra rich, gays blacks Muslims or any other group you care to name...

where we failed is somehow somewhere we let it all get away from us and the end result was to put us on the doorstep to anarchy...

Sorry I don't have the answers or quick fixes...Wish I did but it took years to dig this hole were in and probably take longer to dig our way out... if anyone still cares to that is

This will be the by-product of a CONSTITUTIONAL Revolution where the politicians will once again become a voice of and for the people. Let's just focus on getting rid of the corrupt politicians first. I'm willing to bet that the rest will begin to iron itself out very quickly!

reply to post by gwydionblack


The underlying impetus of any modern (moral) crusade is that of utilitarianism, a principle which states that all action should be directed toward achieving the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. Such a position is concerned with quantity rather than quality, and therefore seeks not evolutionary but numeric growth. Consider its "progressive" developments:

Humanism: the promotion of welfare for the greatest number is a tenet contra-evolutionary in principle, for it clings to the diseased. Perhaps the most universally accepted form of utilitarianism, this becomes the slogan for those who cannot think holistically, and therefore vitiate their morality to a purely anthropocentric mold.

Populism: political influence for the greatest number subverts any hierarchy and commonsense approach to order so that all can partake of the crumbs of the political pie, and thereby creates out of politics an appeal to the lowest-common-denominator. Special interest groups vie for ?political power,? while nothing fundamentally changes in this broken system.

Individualism: mass freedom from authority--which, according to the polarized thinking of individualists, merely seeks conformity--results in disjunction from community and social atomism. This facet of utility is the most ostensibly base, as ?happiness?--of mere individuals no less--become the ?shared? goal, and no greater ambitions are to be sought.

Collectivism: theoretically granting custody to ?the masses,? and ergo, to no one at all, this is the most abstract and utopian of the utilitarian schemas. Collectivism, however, works solely on the level of economics, and therefore does not distinguish itself from the rest of these culturally destructive ideological forms.

Economic growth and population growth are inextricably linked in a cycle of positive feedback. Economic growth is required to support an ever increasing population, yet the population must inexorably increase for the economy to be maintained. What ends up occurring in populations which embrace these utilitarian objectives is that mere sustenance becomes the sole societal priority, and any qualities associated with higher civilization vanish, for there are no resources that can any longer be dedicated to such an endeavor. With utilitarianism, quantity wins. Mediocrity dominates, and any spirit toward ascendancy is crushed, so that life can become "fair." The diseased, the unintelligent, and the emotionally dysfunctional become the normative; any thing greater becomes a form of dissent, to be leveled.

As a consequence of human population explosions, the natural world becomes denuded. Many life forms fall victim to such human waste, left for crowds to gawk at in natural history museums, but never again able to contribute to our ecosystems as a part of the living earth. Our resources become consumed, at such a rate that humanity must either prepare for radical change, or brace itself as it befalls a similar fate.

In any healthy organism, uncontrolled growth which is not checked by apoptosis, or programmed cell death, leads to carcinogenesis. The cancer of utilitarianism must be eradicated, before it becomes terminal.

The "Constitution" makes for pretty good toilet paper but not much else. The "Great American Experiment" has failed. Underconfident or corrupt individuals use these symbols as much as government agencies do. If anyone proposes an inconvenient idea, they claim it violates one of those sacred goals. It's like an insane cult religion or the kind of dogma we saw in the Soviet Union. We must uphold the dogma, but it doesn't work, and the only solution we accept is to keep trying these failed solutions.

Unlike truly goal-oriented politics, symbolic goals are never reached. This makes us to deconstruct politics into issues, which we can fight over instead of fixing the problem of which the issue is the symptom. However, issues make work for politicians, bureaucrats, media workers and others who benefit from controversy -- and like corrupt doctors, they get paid to operate, not to make people well.

A Real "Enemies List"

Multinational corporations who engage in de-industrializing this nation

The "revolving door" participants in our own government and business who are actively trying to weaken the middle class in this country.

Inactive citizens who are too busy eating bon-bons and mac and cheese while watching "American Idol" who call people who research corporate and Governmental malfeasance "conspiracy theorists" and "lunatic fringes".(Because angels run our government and multi national businesses, of course. Now the commercials over, stop talking)

People who actively work to cover up the truth out of laziness or even worse, to protect their masters.

Religious people who compromise their own faith by remaining silent.

People who get frustrated and resort to (or condone) violence in a revenge or a "first strike" massacre of innocents. (i.e: Joe Stack, Yassir Arafat, Dick Cheney, Sadaam Hussien, Ariel Sharon,etc. etc.)

People who willingly "muddy the waters" to obfuscate an issue.

People who "go along to get along" are only ensuring the strength of evil in this world and are just as culpable if they turn their backs on the disenfranchised and helpless.

I am sure that this list could go on for a while.

There will be no organized revolution in this country. We are too schismatic and lazy to see how we are being duped on a large scale. Even the small percentage of people that are "wising up" to how the world really works and just how big it is are too lazy and powerless to do anything about it outside of defending them and theirs when the SHTF.

This may seem a dismal view, but I believe it is a pragmatic one.

The problem with threads like these is that the only way to respond would be to list actual names.

Are there actual individuals that could be listed?
Yes.
In do that, I guarantee that if you were not on some "list" before, you are now.
And that's the low end of the repercussions.

A knock (or no-knock, if you get my drift) at your door would most likely occur, especially if said list had Senators and Congresspeople on it.

If something were to actually happen to someone on that list, you'd be facing the threat of prison, regardless of whether you were involved.

Listing names on the internet is where I, and any other intelligent person should, draw the line.

I'm pretty sure the Mods would have something to say, and I would certainly miss my ATS

I'm not trying to come off as a scared little wuss, but some things are just suicide.

reply to post by Oaktree


I do not want anyone to state any names or even any positions at all. Just simply what group you believe a revolution should target, not any specific names or jobs.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


You always tend to say in 4000 words what you could simplify into a paragraph. I didn't need a lesson on utilitarianism. I'll be the first to admit that I can't always follow your wording and what exactly you are trying to say, but all of what you said is simply opinion.

I'm not big on philosophy, and I find it difficult to wrap my mind around some of the more advanced concepts that people go on about, however, I do like to keep it simple.

Individualism works. A person, as an individualist can create their own happiness and is not affected by the societal differences they are subject to. At least that is how it is supposed to be.

Individualism in America, has undoubtedly failed on a grand scale, BUT I believe it is because it was forced to do so. Under a true rule of the Constitution, individuality would be preserved and regulations would not get in the way. However, under strict guidelines and punishments for lack of conformity, society did just that - it conformed. Using media techniques, brainwashing, and mental inhibiting, a group of individuals become conformed to a standard, with the belief in tact that they are still individuals. However, they have lost the ability to think for themselves and thus have sacrificed the principle of individualism entirely.

Obviously this leads to failure, however, there are steps to be taken to prevent the failure from happening. It is through the use of individualism that the word has advanced to where it has and thus it is only through that in which we can advance further.



The Constitution is a list, nothing more. It is a philosophy in which a few good men decided would be the compilation of the greatest of human rights and liberties, and thus they should be guaranteed to all mankind. The Constitution itself is no longer what binds us, but it is because of the Constitution that we are reminded of our rights as human beings and hold true to those beliefs. If we are unaware of those rights, if we give up those rights unknowingly, we are no longer individuals... we are sheep.

Thus, is America of today.

reply to post by gwydionblack


When all your efforts fail, stop and think. You probably have gotten hold of a bad assumption and it's sabotaging you each time you try to act. Because the assumption is part of your personality, it influences everything you do and so it all fails.

When we talk about civilization change, we're talking about changing such an assumption -- and in doing so, changing society at its most fundamental pivot point. If we're insisting up is down, to insist up is up becomes a radical act, and one that most people will violently oppose.

Since the 1500s, when our liberal revolution started, the world has been moving on two fronts. The first is technology, which would have expanded with time anyway; the second is toward a liberal democratic view of the universe, which we recognize as modern liberalism.

We can envision liberalism as a fundamental assumption underlying modern civilization. Here's a good summary from John Kekes:

The view of human nature at the core of the liberal faith is thus that human beings are by their nature free, equal, rational, and morally good.
The assumption of liberalism is that we needed a justification for throwing out the kings and idea of God, so we created a new notion: equality. In it we're all the same, or at least should be, so we'll act that way. In order to assume equality, we have to assume that we're all good, intelligent, and capable of making the right decision if only we're given the right opportunities, education, and information.

We've been working on this assumption since the pompously titled "The Enlightenment," which was essentially a scam. People wanted to get rid of kings and the assumption that there was a divine right, or even single right way, to do anything -- even if it was based on reality and the gods were a symbol for how reality worked, much like science is a symbolic representation of reality.

All of our bloviation about "equality" and "morality" is not the reason for our actions, but the justification for them. Kind of like when you accidentally buy an extra quart of ice cream, and then guiltily shrug it off with "well, we'll use it anyway eventually" even though you're planning to take it off to the TV room and eat the whole thing.

Happy people make exploratory decisions, and sad people make painful but repetitive decisions. This part of human nature means that 99% of the people active at any given time are repeating a failed idea, as if waiting for a tiny awakened minority to start exploring a better path. Not necessarily a new path; just a less obsolete one.

Reading that knowledge into history, we can see that our worldwide flirtation with Liberalism has continued because we are miserable, and so keep repeating the sad logic of the last 500 years while not re-checking our assumptions.

Congress building.

And congressmen.

THEY KEEP MAKING THESE GOD DAMN LAWS it'll kill the revolt before too long if they arent first stopped.

reply to post by gwydionblack

Any senator, congressman, lawyer, judge, or government worker who either refused to uphold the rights of the Constitution, or deliberately authors, promotes, or puts in action a law that which is unconstitutional - those are the targets.

What about those that are sworn to protect these men? Or how about those that willingly work for these men? How about those that passionately support these men and what they believe in and do? What about their families? What if, on orders, US soldiers are ordered to stop you...they are American soldiers following orders?

The line is not so clear. It never will be.

There are a lot of good opinions on this topic that can be found here:
www.gotfr.org...

I would suggest everyone read the content at that site, as the people running it claim to have military factions backing them.

The intent is to simply restore the Republic, as peacefully as possible. Serve all Governors, if they will not take the new oath, oust them. This is the most peaceful plan I have read about yet, but will require military involvement in order to enact.

Obviously the enemy lies within big government and most corporations along with every name in the bilderberg group. That is why the entire planet needs to revolt not just the USA. One country at a time.. sure, but never stop at just one country. If the good old US of A revolted and indeed a revolution occurred, I'm willing to wager everything that I own that the rest of the world would soon follow.

Our enemies are not Iranians, Iraqi's, Russians, North Koreans, Americans, Japanese, Chinese.. but rather the governments of all of them including most corporations such as major banks, Monsanto, big pharma, /ect. I'm not disclud(ing)* Canada. The corruption stinks just as much, its just kept more quiet here.


[edit on 8-3-2010 by disfugured]