Politics for dummies...

In response to a couple of threads i ran across here on ATS where American people are bashing their appointed leader, i created this thread

I will admit that i am a complete nitwit when i comes to politics and especially American politics. So i hope, through this thread, somebody might care to explain to me where my logic fails...

We all have certain ideas of how our society should function. So we go out and hook up with like-minded people so we can work on realizing these ideas.

When enough people have joined your group, you look for the best person within that group to represent your ideas. A representative who speaks on behalf of your ideas.

This is where my confusion starts....

As a representative of a large group of American people President Obama made the promise of change, clearly because most people within his group agreed to this notion.

Why then are people looking to their representative for this change? He only represents what you wanted. It is still your idea and it is still your responsibility to realize this idea.....

Do not get me wrong. I am not criticizing Americans here because my country is not any different. It seems that nowadays everybody wants their results without having to wait. If your political representative doesn't produce results within the timeframe you expect, you kick him out and appoint a new one..

General consensus seems to be :"I placed my order, i choose somebody to represent me. Now i want results.....NOW!!!"

That is not how politics works, in my humble opinion. Every politician is merely a representative of your ideas. A promise is nothing more then a confirmation that you may act according to your ideas. To realize your ideas, you still have to work on it yourself....

Peace

[edit on 7-3-2010 by operation mindcrime]

Well i wouldn't mind knowing why we have elected representatives then. To me it goes like this. I vote for a guy who's ideas i agree with. We aren't given much choice btw. That guys job is to go and implement the ideas i like. Here is how it has been working though. I elect a guy who's ideas i like. He goes to D.C. gets free dinners, trips, and plenty of my money. He doesn't do anything except suck up a paycheck and feed his/her narcissism. I get mad, elect someone else, and the cycle repeats. I really don't understand where your confusion lies.

Great thread S/F

We got what we payed for in a sense. Obama promised to come in on a platform of change, and can we deny that things have not changed? Did we get the kind of change we wanted? It depends on whom you ask. Obama won 53% of the vote not 90% so how could you expect him to make America unite? It's an irrational theory to even consider that approach. Americans remain largely divided, especially about Obama. HE promised change, we just voted for the democrats because we expected them to work like he would, to serve on the same platform as him. I think the general publics real anger should be directed at Conservative Democrats, not the GOP or Progressives or Obama. I guarantee that if the Democrats united and did exactly like Obama wanted without watering anything down the Republicans would be in a dire situation.

What happened was in July the Conservative Democrats began to see a rise of hard-core conservatism and that scared them so they began to make choices that are opposite of what would save them. They acted on fear of a conservative revolt against them and instead of following their party and their president they ditched them and went more conservative which they thought would save them. In fact the opposite effect is happening and they are so stupid that they continue doing what will hurt them in November.

Anyways great post.

reply to post by ventian


Thanks for the reply ventian.

I should really emphasize that i know close to nothing about the American political system but when President Obama promised change, what did you expect?

That he was going to give you that change?

The political system looks more like a popularity contest nowadays. Where the representative is more important then the ideas he represents. We are the political system!! We are the ideas!! We are the ones responsible....

Right??

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Actually most 'democracies' do not rest the power of the government on the citizens like we may think. There is only one form of democracy where the citizens control the government directly and that is Direct Democracy

There is only 1 country in the world that is truly democratic and that is Switzerland.

In Switzerland, single majorities are sufficient at the town, city, and canton level, but at the national level, double majorities are required on constitutional matters. The intent of the double majorities is simply to ensure any citizen-made law's legitimacy (Kobach, 1993).

Double majorities are, first, the approval by a majority of those voting, and, second, a majority of cantons in which a majority of those voting approve the ballot measure. A citizen-proposed law (i.e. initiative) cannot be passed in Switzerland at the national level if a majority of the people approve, but a majority of the cantons disapprove (Kobach, 1993). For referendums or propositions in general terms (like the principle of a general revision of the Constitution), the majority of those voting is enough (Swiss constitution, 2005).

In 1890, when the provisions for Swiss national citizen lawmaking were being debated by civil society and government, the Swiss copied the idea of double majorities from the United States Congress, in which House votes were to represent the people and Senate votes were to represent the states (Kobach, 1993). According to its supporters, this "legitimacy-rich" approach to national citizen lawmaking has been very successful. Kobach claims that Switzerland has had tandem successes both socially and economically which are matched by only a few other nations, and that the United States is not one of them. Kobach states at the end of his book, "Too often, observers deem Switzerland an oddity among political systems. It is more appropriate to regard it as a pioneer." Finally, the Swiss political system, including its direct democratic devices in a multi-level governance context, becomes increasingly interesting for scholars of European Union integration (see Trechsel, 2005)

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 3/7/10 by Misoir]

reply to post by Misoir


Hey Misoir,

Great avatar!!

On topic. What you say is true but i am more concerned about what people expect from a politician. Like you said :

how could you expect him to make America unite?

Is it his job to unite America? Well partly, yes. But he only represent what a large portion of society seems to think. Is it then not the responsibility of those people behind him to bring about this change??

Peace

It should be very basic but instead we've complicated things way out of proportion...

In America you can be a politician for life... What do you want to be when you grow up... A POLITICIAN!
Therefore you go to law school and make your way up the ranks - Military of some sort is usually required... then if you survive all of that you then can go two ways... Run for local government CITY - STATE - this usually gets you a crowd and money.. then you can go to PRESIDENT.

Or live in the fast lane and get a seat in congress. This is where the problem lies. The House and Congress needs a fruit basket turn over every 2 years. They need to treat it like JURY duty instead of a carreer opportunity. Therefore the laws are voted on... and then changed and then can be rechanged if they don't work out.

Instead we have a Govt.. that has so many AMENDMENTS.. it is tied up and we can't move or work because of these Amendments to the original plan of government.

Example - Wildlife groups picketed until they passed laws about drilling for oil. Now we can't drill for oil because we are saving animals.


It seems as if every President.. has great ideas going into the White House but then every plan he tries to implement has a huge block in the way.. and nothing can get passed.

However.. it is very clear there is another agenda they are working towards.. and they won't let the American people know about it!

Pick up any American History book and you will see how Government works. Then pick up your newspaper to see how things are turning out.

reply to post by biblenet


Wow, thanks for that explanation Biblenet.

And here i was thinking that in the land of the free, any person can run for President, so long as he or she is 35 years old and a native citizen.

What happened to my "illusion" that in America every man with a good idea can make a change?

So democracy is all about who has the biggest bank account?

No wonder we're in the shape we are....

Peace

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is obvious the leftist among us are CURSED and will be fed into the lake of fire along with satan.....

"Politics for dummies".....Jesus who forsaw all thing since the beginning of time did not make this statement without specific reason...the "left" always seem to be anti-god and quick to take up "other" gods like budda and worship of environment over humans. The "left" is for murder of children in the womb....but saving the lives of murders......

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hello Operation Mindcrime.. interesting thread idea... I think a lot of the confusion you are getting is because you don't understand the American political process (and I say this meaning no offense).

The USA is a democratic republic.

We elect representatives to speak on our behalf, because we can not fit 330million in a room at once to have a nice sit down chat.

These representatives are, in theory, to represent the views and ideas of the people who elect them.

The people have very little, to what I would argue none at all, control over the law making process once the representative is elected.

It is the representatives job to represent those who elected them.

The people have no avenue to enforce their representatives to represent their ideas... other than voting in a new politician.

What smart people (whether they're immoral or not, that's for you to decide) have figured out.. is that you can lie to people and they will believe you.

So.. what Americans do, is when they don't like what their last representative did... they vote in a new one, like you propose... because when the prospect representative speaks he says all the right things and proposes all the right ideas at the right time.

But then... it turns out this time, nothing is different and you have been lied to again!

So what to do now?

Well, vote in a new representative of course!!!

Do you see where I'm going?

-------------------------------------------

I keep seeing you ask us.. "but isn't it the work of people that will bring about the change?"

It all depends in the change you are talking about.

We can not change our laws, or adjust them to be more morally acceptable, or influence our leaders by voting or speaking out. I don't care what any 'freedom lovin' patriot,' as Fox News calls them, will come in after me and say, the people of the United States don't have one iota of influence into their federal government and their actions. (state/local.. just slightly different)

If we COULD influence our federal system... neither of the 2 bail outs would have happened, for one example.

Hope this helps you understand a little bit how things are done in the United States.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by ImaNutter]

reply to post by heliosprime


Eeeehmm......huh??

Now i may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but what is this all about?

Would you please elaborate on what it is you are trying to say here?

Peace

reply to post by heliosprime


I think you are confused, us on the left do everything that the passages of your bible say and then some. I don't see you right-wingers caring for people, we will give up our 75% of our paycheck to help total strangers yet all you do is give $200 a year to a charity and say god will praise you. You are truly dillusional, if that bible b.s. meant anything to me I would be even more offended. Actually if you think about it the people whom are religious and are on the left are far more holier than 'ye'.

The people have very little, to what I would argue none at all, control over the law making process once the representative is elected.


This is very true.. take the Health Care Bill. Not a whole lot of Americans want this.. but they are putting it on a silver platter and making us vote on it! We didn't think anything was wrong with our current health care system.. Some changes need to be made and more money piped in.. but that's all. I don't think we need to give illegal immigrants health care!




[edit on 7-3-2010 by ImaNutter]

Originally posted by biblenet
This is very true.. take the Health Care Bill. Not a whole lot of Americans want this.. but they are putting it on a silver platter and making us vote on it! We didn't think anything was wrong with our current health care system.. Some changes need to be made and more money piped in.. but that's all. I don't think we need to give illegal immigrants health care!

bolded and underlined just to point out "us" isn't voting on it! The representatives are voting on it... and will promptly pass it no doubt. I know you knew this but I just wanted to clarify it a bit since the OP is already confused about our process here in the good 'ol USA.

Go ahead and call your representative and tell them what you think and see how that goes



The day I wrote my representatives on an unrelated issue (one that our state fully supported, and thus should be represented) and received back and automated form letter saying "thanks for your time but we believe it is not in the best interest blah blah blah"... I lost all hope for whatever form of government it is we want to call this thing we're living under.

reply to post by ImaNutter


Thanks for that explanation ,

As i already mentioned, i am a nitwit when it comes to politics. So no offense taken...

the people of the United States don't have one iota of influence into their federal government and their actions.

Isn't that kinda the opposite of a democracy, whether it is a republic one or not??

Peace

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by ImaNutter

 

Thanks for that explanation ,

As i already mentioned, i am a nitwit when it comes to politics. So no offense taken...

Good, I didn't want to come off as condescending!

Isn't that kinda the opposite of a democracy, whether it is a republic one or not??

Peace

Ding ding ding You know the answer! Yes, it is a bit backwards it seems isn't it??

I was intrigued by your original post because with your question about people working to change for what we want... it opens up all kinds of other questions, once we all realize how little involvement we have in the political process.

And the reason the political process is all buggered up still is because no one's come up with a reasonable solution to get them to represent us.

reply to post by ImaNutter


Thanks for taking the time to explain..

You say,

I was intrigued by your original post because with your question about people working to change for what we want... it opens up all kinds of other questions, once we all realize how little involvement we have in the political process.

Small but not insignificant!! Do you not think that our own mindset and mentality might have something to do with the way our governments run the place? After all, every country gets the president it deserves.

So where then lies the problem?

Peace

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by heliosprime

 

I think you are confused, us on the left do everything that the passages of your bible say and then some. I don't see you right-wingers caring for people, we will give up our 75% of our paycheck to help total strangers yet all you do is give $200 a year to a charity and say god will praise you. You are truly dillusional, if that bible b.s. meant anything to me I would be even more offended. Actually if you think about it the people whom are religious and are on the left are far more holier than 'ye'.

Liberals want to take money from others to give it to who "they choose"....conservatives give thier own money.....and in far great amounts...

Alright, as to how things are supposed to work here in the US.

Representative Constitutional Republic.

All laws passed by our government are to remain in the confines of the US Constitution.

If they are not, the Citizens have no obligation to follow them. That is the tenet for our form of government.

Now, how it operates.

They keep stressing the Democracy component, have you noticed that in responses you have on this thread?

That is our current government's technique to FOOL the people.

The government has NO right to do ANYTHING that is not SPECIFICALLY written out in the Constitution. Of course they have and that is why we are in the #hole we are in now.

I do not care what others think, only what is in the Constitution.

Now, one thing written into the Constitution by VERY devious means, was the 16th amendment. Which was used to force citizens to pay part of their labor in taxes. First instituted as a supposed temporary measure, has become the vehicle to make ANYTHING the government wants to do, possible.

The next thing was the 1913 installlation of the Federal Reserve which is completely illegal. The Congress is the only one authorized to coin money, but now private banks do. See where that has led us.

The biggest and most devious thing to date, that are country's government has done though, was to convince the citizens that we are a Democracy.

We are not a Democracy!

That there is the biggest US conspiracy, against the people of the US. PERIOD.


[edit on 3/7/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by ventian



Good point, ventian.

What is even more frustrating is that the damage is already done before you can vote them out of office, which may very well be the outcome for Obamacare.

And even more frustrating yet is seeing them get re-elected because of all the lobbyist and union money that has been donated to their campaigns!