Sub-cultures, style, music, philosophy

Here's a topic that I don't think I've seen anyone post a thread about and it has to do with "subcultures". You know what kind of things the kids these days are into. Some of them take it with them for life as something part of them, like a philosophy, a way of living.

When I was a teenager I never really understood my place. I guess I wasn't really looking to fit in. You know what I mean, in a high school you get your varieties of people all stereotyped in group with their pet names: Jocks, Nerds, Punks, Goths, Losers, Skaters, whatever right...

So like my entire childhood I had a small group of friends. I guess I couldn't find my place though i'm not sure I was looking for one that involved sacrificing my individual values. Yeah well that changed when I got older because that's what I did and thought I was doing the opposite. Well, in a sense I was doing both, now this is an interesting topic to me. Let me explain.

So my sister started dating this guy who was a classic punk. They broke up but years later he and I are best friends. Well when they were dating I started hanging around with him and through him I met some like-minded people. Before I started listening to punk rock music, I thought all music was the same love song over and over again, something that I wasn't really digging at the time. This punk rock music had energy, aggression, it was vulgar but it was mostly open ended, which is what I liked about it. Some of it had a pretty smart message.

So it's kind of interesting, I mean, while trying to retain my individuality I got into this thing that totally absorbed me into a life philosophy. I started to show my enthusiam for it by spiking my hair and it was a manner of years before I had the full on punk rock poster boy image. But I made it look tough!! jk.

I already had an edge on me from my childhood but I think the punk rock brought out the animal in me. It got me pissed off and I was ready for the violent revolution. What I found was I was emulating some feelings to a depth I sometimes didn't generally feel. To put it simply, I became more of an a-hole that's for sure. I think if anything it made me arrogant, like it was a whole "F you, no'one understands me, you're all sheep, I hate you all" sort of mentality.

I can say I got myself into a fair amount of trouble while at the same time luckily avoiding it for the most part, but yeah, not entirely. See this what's interesting about punk rock, the movement behind it, a message and mentality that was something shared but also varied. You had some pretty smart political activists and you had your drunken crazies! (me). So I was in this group of individuals, feeling very individual but I think I was still deffinately wearing a mask. I mean, many punks sure look alike, but for the most part I found a lot them to be pretty solid, smart and wise people. Others were just depressed and angry as hell. What I'm trying to get at here is i'm not trying to group or stereotype yet I did it to myself, I fell into a stereotype in some form even though it's the last thing I wanted growing up. I liked to look punk because of the creative expression and to me it really shows how a lot of these types of people you see have a very creative potential wanting to be expressed. At the same time it takes a certain quality to walk around like that. (you will get harassed, beer cans thrown at you and beat up.) hahaha.

It's just interesting. But the whole thing really resonated with me at one point. I wanted so badly to form a punk band and do that for my life. Well it lasted a few years before the band mates went to school, or picked up trades or something. What happened for me was I had a series of deja vus and well, it let me to a path of exploring meditation. I was never spiritual for any sake of the word but to meditate for so long and not to take some bigger picture out of it seemed impossible to resist.

I started meditating and keep in mind I was one angry SOB. This thread is open-ended but it has a second intention here. I think a lot of meditators are misunderstood. Some people feel their anger is justified and reasonable, a long with all their F-d up thoughts and feelings. I sure as hell did. I externalized blame for everything. I was judgemental. I was like the people I hated. I'm not saying I found "god" in the sense you may be thinking as the cause of my shift of attitude but through the meditation I got into the depth of my mind, and started to sympathize for people. I guess I reached a point where I no longer felt like I wanted to struggle up stream and I searched for some sense of understanding and peace within myself. To this day i've never felt so individual and open to be myself as i choose to express it but what interests me still is..

I can still listen to some music and it makes me want to emulate a certain look. Its like the music's sound vibrations are tuning me, lol. I mean you look at a whole subculture of people and what seems to be common to me is how a type of music goes with their life philosophy they've taken to. I don't like to think I am limited to that as my style and musical taste these days is diverse but what's interesting is how it seems it can be taken very enthusiastically and even being able to mold you into this person.

It's just very interesting to think about and there are no threads about it. To many people this whole look, this music, this subculture is a philosophy, a way of life to them.

I still bust out some punk rock jams here and there and love it but my approach is different. I never thought i'd be "that guy". Punk rock till the day I die is what I thought. I like to think of myself as punk rock evolved. If punk rock is centered around free expression and a sort of fun and enduring, tough way of life, well I just think now-adays I'm better at it!

If I ever found anything that interested me in punk rock it was a sense of individuality and I didn't realize how I took on a little more then that. One thing's for sure though about the appearance, to this day what I express outwardly often what I feel inwardly. The punk rock look is what I felt inside, and it came out as vibrant, fun, but also angry and unapproachable. It's just interesting how we want to freely express ourselves, despite that it may appear similar to how someone else looks.. who cares? We end up blending in this group but the whole time I generally just wanted to look that way and I did it for myself, i don't know about the others. So its kind of interesting how a group of people can be stereotyped when in some cases there is some justification but in many ways it just becomes a chosen personal expression that just so happens may reflect a mindset that could have been culturally shaped.

It's interesting really. I'm just not angry anymore, and I express myself in what appears still dark but i'd like to think a little more peaceful. . It's just interesting how we want to stereotype a whole group of people when really it's much more complex then that. For me, whatever commonalities I adapted, i felt i had very personal and individual reasons for it.

Well in some sense I went from the punk rock revolutionary mentality to one more of a mind-revolutionary. That raw energy is still in me, just expressed differently.

So what do you all have to say subcultures and philosophies?

Is there one you have taken to and feel are unjustly stereotyped?

Is there one you have felt you outgrew or changed for a certain reason?

Do you think music is strong enough to shape a person in such a way?

All these questions. So what is your take on it?

Oi Oi Oi, punx! haha. cheers

[edit on 17-2-2010 by CavemanDD]

And still now-adays, I get grouped as a "New Ager" on here. haha hell with that. If my ideas in some way reflect someone else's then what the hell am I supposed to do? I'm just trying to be open minded. I just wanted to meditate and explore the mind and make myself a more able person and a little more clear about what I want. I hear some common "new age" catch phrases and I cringe. I feel there is a lot of the same stuff being propagated and passed around but to me I thought the spiritual way of life was not found in a book or a lecture but inquired within one's sense of self meaning.

Hear me out. I'm just trying to be an individual here and don't think I don't know where you angry bastards are coming from. hahaha. I had my days of ridiculing the spiritual types. The ideas were just too far out of my grasp. It just seemed so fantasy. I was so stuck in my box but now this, this state of mind is something else. You can meditate to discipline yourself without a spiritual agenda! People seem to avoid it like the plague but you know, don't be surprised of where you might end up is all i'm saying.

I'm just going through life trying to understand and express myself how I feel freely to do so. And in the process, it seems being stereotyped is sometimes unavoidable.

It's an interesting topic.

Let's not forget "Conspiracy Theorists? Oh you guys are all paranoid and unrealistic". Meanwhile there is a large of amount of mainstream facts to support something beyond simple theory. The theories actually hold some weight, but no, you're a crazy person!

Interesting thread, as I actually did my Sociology Degree dissertation on Youth Sub cultures. the title to my thesis was. "Has the Dance music culture, brought an end to traditional youth sub cultures in Britain"

The premise was based on how current youth subcultures, have less of a counter culture and are basically an amalgamation of styles from past youth subcultures, like The Punks, The Mods and Teddy Boy's, but without the anti establishment theses previous youth cultures had.

I did the study back in the late 90's and had I done it now, I would have realised there are anti establishment youth cultures in the UK, with the rise of Gangs, Hoodies, Chavs and even Young Muslim fundamentalists.

All groups connected, through shared norms and values providing an identity to groups, in a more fragmented society

I myself got into the House music scene in the early 90's and it changed my life. I work in dance music, all my friends are involved in dance music and it has definately driven me in a direction. I guess the original ethos of the Acid House culture is similar to Hippie one , peace and love etc etc.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by woodwardjnr]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by woodwardjnr]

reply to post by woodwardjnr


right on man. I thought of all the things I have taken from my experiences that I'd like to compile it into something but I thought an ATS thread would be a good start.

It is interesting.

The skinheads, that's a complex one too. The typical reaction is "he's a nazi!". When it has its roots in the 60's with dock workers who were diggin' the jamaican ska and those sorts of things.

I know quite a few people who rock the skinhead look and "ways" but man. That's too much pressure for me. Everyone looks at you like they want to kill you after the movie "American History X".

I don't know, there was a lot of tension, and unnecessary differences but so many similarities in all the different groups! Some of them seem to blend but it depends on the individuals. Others are so stuck in their ways or fears of being targeted as being within that certain group.

I'd like to hear what else you can contribute.

I think when growing up ascribing an identity to yourself is important. I was from a small market town, most people were in just going to pubs and fighting at the weekend, while me and my mates would drive to the nearest city to go to clubs and party all night.

I would go into college still wired from the weekend, totally engrosed in the music and the fashions and keen to make myself look different from my fellow students. This was my and a few others secret. we were having magic at the weekends, while they were fighting in drunken brawls or dancing round handbags at the local disco.

I think it's an aspect of outsider culture. We all fit in to a lot of different groups that overlap. Some of the groups are mainstream and heavily populated...they can keep it. The sub-groups are the guys that either didn't fit in, opted out or both. I've always been in niche groups...banger, warehouse raver, hippy even criminal at one time. Crooks are a sub-culture and I was 'an angry SOB' too

Over the years, it seems that the sub-group guys are the independent ones of society. I hate to generalise, but I'm gonna anyway....the sub-culture folk are usually less aggressive. Even more, I think they are deeper thinkers and more soulful. IMO they're 'better' people.

Given the 'philosophy' tag in the title, I wonder if the subs represent the emergent ideologies? Rock n Roll was once 'dirty' and became mainstream. 80s Metal was accused of satanism. Dance music was accused of making criminals of a generation. Rap music was accused of undermining western society and inciting racism. UK grime was considered a refuge for welfare drug dealers and criminals. All of these styles have reached mainstream and changed fashions.

From there it's knee-jerk...but...science and technology is driven by the same outsiders dreaming new stuff up. ATS is an outsider holiday resort...so many ideas and *mostly* positive conflict between groups and ideas.

I think teens and kids that enjoy a wide variety of styles, tastes and subcultures, even though they might appear to be "conflicting" to others, may become lonely or alienated kids because they have a less a narrowly defined range.

If the radio does not narrow down on one frequency one finds oneself in no frequency at all.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Good one

I see where you are coming from with the generalizations. I thought that too, and still do to a degree. Not that it has anything to do with the subcultures other then it being appealing to those certain types.

It is interesting what you said about less aggressive. I always thought the punks and metal heads were for the most part pretty peaceful dudes but maybe they got all their aggression out in the mosh pit. hahaha. I got a nice scar and bump on my head where hair didn't grow for 2 years to show for that one.

But I think sometimes their aggression came out of A. The booze!.. B. Pent up frustration from the world.

The music, which could be considered angry, punk, metal, whatever. I actually found it was stress relieving and made me pretty happy, in a happy violent sort of way. .. When I wasn't listening to my music, THEN i was the angry SOB.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Indeed, it seems an ongoing tuning process is natural is it not?

Likewise I could assume some meditative music is tuning me, as some of it is actually purposely intended.

It was nice having a place for myself. Nowadays I like to surf the different stations.

It's still interesting though. You think how this could potentially used for a manipulative end. I think I started thinking about it when I saw that "illuminatti card game" on the internet, and I saw the punk rockers card as some obstruction of social order. I laughed but it got me thinking.

When growing up you may have had trouble finding an identity, and so now when you listen to any genre of music you can see yourself being a "fan" of it and being 'accepted' by the other listeners regardless of what genre it is. Perhaps it isn't the music you like, but the acceptance from being part of something?

As most people from my generation I suspect that there are several sub-cultures / styles and their associated music which has helped shape me and my beliefs.

Being raised in a somewhat rough and notoriously insular council estate in a North East English town violence was pretty much common place but so was that sense of 'us together against the world' mentality, something that remains to this day.

I was introduced to Punk whilst still at primary school and music is still my passion.
en.wikipedia.org...
I have always listened to different types of music but Punk has always been present helping me define the world around me and shaping my little world.

Around 1980 I got caught up in the Mod Revival thing and was introduced to Skinhead culture through the emergence of Two Tone and Oi.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...!
Being the person I am I subsequently listened to a lot of Trojan Ska.
en.wikipedia.org...
This was also my first exposure to the Scooterist scene.
en.wikipedia.org...
Throughout all this Punk still retained a prominent part of my life.

I suspect that what attracted me to these groups was not just the very good music but also the sense of being a strong individual within a collective group which was / is marginalised from society.

Whilst music has always been a major part of my life so has football.
Coming from the background I do I could not help get involved with the 'hooligan' element and with it came exposure to the whole casual scene, something that has stayed with me to this day, (not the hooligan part, far too old for those sort of shenanigans and jail and violence holds little appeal to this 44 year old man!).
en.wikipedia.org...

Eventually I got a little involved in the rave scene
en.wikipedia.org...
That led to Madchester and Oasis etc.
en.wikipedia.org...

The Scooter scene remains a big part of my life and with it has come an appreciation of Northern Soul.
en.wikipedia.org...

All these things have helped shape and define me.
To this day I have an eclectic taste in music.
But Punk has been the ever present, something that has, and always will, stayed with me.
Punk is a state of mind, is in my heart and is a way of life, or at least approaching life.

Hi Cave!!

My thoughts are in keeping with others here. Adolescents have the developmental task of developing an identity. Theoretically, if this task is skipped it leads to "identity diffusion" in later years which can be problematic for the adult.

So yeah, kids try on many different hats until they find their niche. This may go well into the twenties, and as you may know, adolescence is being defined into the twenties, or until one is no longer dependent on parental support and guidance through some of the college age years.

When one sees a teen who is overly identifying with one of the "fringe" groups.....oh, thinks he's a vampire, or is too heavily into the goth thing, then this would be seen as a red flag that maybe.....things aren't quite right at home.

Music does have an effect on us, of course. But it may be more significant during those adolescent years, when it seems so important to find something to relate to, or someone who is as lost as you are. lol. I have had periods of my life where I would only listen to a certain "type" of music. I would have turned my nose up at other genres at the time.

But now, I listen to most all genres, and appreciate them all, including classical and jazz. I still like most everything except what I've called "radio songs". Never been much for "radio songs". lol.

But it's wonderful that music is there for us when we need it. In a certain mood? Fine! Pluck a CD off your shelf and wallow in it!

To me, punk was all about being different to the "norm" whether it be the music, attitude, clothes or hairstyles and we had something to rebel and shout against...typically unemployment(early 80s) Thatcher- Reagan, nuclear war. Even though i "hung around" with like minded people i still felt i was very much an individual, still feel exactly the same today (though too much soap and stuff in my hair has seen off any chance of getting my mohican back )

Jello says it all.....

Punk ain't no religious cult
Punk means thinking for yourself
You ain't hardcore cos you spike your hair
When a jock still lives inside your head

Right im off to dig my Crass albums out.......

I discovered a sub culture that resonated with me. I was studying Sociology like an earlier poster. My social theory proff was a critical theorist of African descent and had an affection for the serious Rastafarians as they are very critical of western materialistic societal paradigms. I was already a huge fan of reggae having been introduced to it at an early age by family friends who moved to Bermuda and summered near where my folks summered. It became inevitable that I would adopt the Dreaded appearance. I had super thick curly hair like S.O.S pads so my locks were bongo and chunky. I didn't even have to try, they just grew in naturally and heavy.

At that time, I was beginning to wake up to the MSM and TPTB and considered myself a black sheep in the herd. So this was a peaceful way for me to separate myself from the herd and show my contempt for the silent violent majority. I was very private with my locks, usually shielding them from the stares and sneers of the neo conservative public (as is the custom with true Rastas) where I lived.

I was very much a nature lover and enjoyed the outdoors, like many rastas, knew all my trees and shrubs and medicinal plants, also like the rastas. I just felt like a had an affinity with their natural approach. I didn't feel like a wannabe but rather genuinely reflected their culture. Mind you I didn't worship the Ethiopian emperor as the reincarnate of Christ, but tried to live and love in the now.

I have since cut the locks for a more monk like shaved head but still have phantom feelings of my dreads that I swing from time to time. I say I still have them in spirit.

Dreads have always got along well with punks. Bob Marley wrote about Picadilly Circus and has a great tune Punky Reggae Party
rejected by society
treated with impunity
protected by my dignity
i search for reality

new wave, new craze
new wave, new wave, new phrase

im sayin
the Wailers will be there
the Damned, the Jam, the Clash
Maytals will be there
Dr. Feelgood too

no boring old farts, no boring old farts, no boring old farts
will be there!
no boring old farts, no boring old farts, no boring old farts
will be there!

No boring old farts, no boring old farts, no boring old farts will be there

Blessings mi bredren

[edit on 17-2-2010 by sparrowstail]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by sparrowstail]

Great posts everyone.

I agree its so important for shaping people in their adolescent years but some people take it for life. It's just interesting how certain things resonate with us and it is very much a philosophy of life in its own.

There is no need to be separated in groups and hate each other because we look like we belong in such a group. They all have interesting sides and it's interesting how people reflect these certain things. There deffinately is some important philosophy about it for such people.

For me, punk rock was there to toughen me up I think, give me some street smarts and a perspective what it's like on a certain level. I also got to experience what it was like to be the target of a lot of unnecessary hate. Within the last few years I lived in a very poor neighborhood, lots of drugs and prostitution, and my house was robbed several times. I've been robbed lots, guitars, guitar amps (from some show I played), money, a pretty expensive camera. All the while walking to work every morning passing through and observing the absolute degradation the city had to offer.

So in a deffinate sense, i've been shaped by all these factors and my care-free approach to life took these things for me.

I still really resonate with punk rock too but I admit its a lot different. I would get mixed feelings when I saw some punks walking down the street. For a while I thought I rejected a major part of me until this summer really where it hit me and i was losing sleep over it, knowing that side of me was like my strength. I missed the music and a bit of that edge and was quick to adapt some of it happily back into my life. But its not just music or looks, its definately a philosophical quality to me.

There is a difference between being an individual and being individuated. Being an individual would be the deepest result of one who desires to be oneself. It would involve one following their own lead, their own law, with no respect for external pressuring forces. The actions one takes would be the expression of the deepest portion of the self, the consequence of obeying one's eternal law. Being individuated, by contrast, is an entirely shallow and external matter. To be individuated is to somehow be distinguished from other individuals around you from the perspective of another human observer. Various external changes will suffice in attempts to be individuated: new hair, new clothes, loud disruptive behavior, etc. When one is successfully being an individual, they tend to coincidentally be individuated. But the problem at hand is that the latter is being pursued in and of itself.

The youth of today pursue that which is new, unique or different. They desire anything that is somehow individuated from what others are doing, and as a result of being involved in these things (be they clothing, music, catch phrases, whatever), are whole-heartedly trying to individuate themselves. Seeing as this is an entirely external endeavor, and something that requires another human observer to notice, the entire motivation is social. And so, in this faulty way of "being themselves," the youth of today walk into the trap of enslavement to social concerns. Far from a journey of self-discovery, this is simply another form of following external rules while the deepest regions of the self remain untouched.

Those who have freed themselves from their social bonds must now understand truly what it is to "be yourself," to attack this task at its core and learn how to be an individual. External appearances or evidence of individuation are inconsequential to this task. What matters is the internal change that involves finding within oneself their deepest foundation of values. Once there is a foundation to hold onto, one can begin to shape one?s own law. However, it is not enough to form such a law. This law must also be obeyed in action. Regardless of whether your friends think reading Schopenhauer is cool or not, for example, if your deepest reaches compel you to do so, then you must and will do so. Compromising yourself for social concerns is to succumb to slavery and to fail at the task of self-discovery.