Is communism GOOD?

reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


I guess the BS part about a utopia depends on whether or not you believe in the coming Kingdom of God, but I'm not hear to make this a religious thread, enough of those around already.

I'm simply saying that ANY form of economics and government without strong moral foundations and guidelines will fail due to the greed and corruption of men.

We are raised to believe that capitalism is the best system in the world, but I don't think its any better than any other system when evil men are at its head. Each one has great potential.

I am fully convinced that nothing is bad in and of itself. We make it that way by our own decisions and motives.

Originally posted by Mykahel
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

 

I guess the BS part about a utopia depends on whether or not you believe in the coming Kingdom of God, but I'm not hear to make this a religious thread, enough of those around already.

I guess not. I'll just ignore your sig and you pic then. But somehow I think you convictions are such that you wouldn't call the coming of the messiah BS nor would you tolerate someone else doing so.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


No, it's not "the people in power" It starts with a assumption humans are never greedy, they will always give to each according to his need. By the way, did you Marx never worked a day in his life, he sponged off his friends? That should tell you something...

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Communism is Great but it was poisoned byu the apparatchniks!

T

Hey All,

I just got back from Cuba this weekend and went on a historic tour of the city of Havana. Alot of great info was provided.

Some good and bad points can be said about communism as per the Cuban way of life.

GOOD.
People are generally quite happy, laid back, and healthy.
They get a full university education if wanted.
Cuba has one of the best Social Security systems in Latin America: free medical treatment, education and a basic food allowance.
1 doctor for every 140 persons.
Cuba has an effective Civil Defense System in case of natural disaster or hurracanes.
1 dentist for every 1000 persons.
Very limited crime. Harsh imprisonment and punishments if convicted.
Police do not carry guns (knives and billy-clubs ONLY)
Subsidized housing and transportation is provided to all citizens by government.
48% of the workforce is made up of women.

BAD.
After your initial food allowance, to receive extra rations of foods will cost 4x the cost of your allowed purchase. example: Rice would normally cost .80 Pesos initially and would cost 2.40 Pesos if you wanted extra)
You may not sell your home for profit. Must be sold back to government.
(Good incentive to keep it maintained though)
Professional persons (doctors, engineers, etc.) you are treated as a commodity of the country and may be sent to another country for exchange of another resource.
Housing is limited. Therefore you may need to share your home with other family members.
You are only allowed so much of an item per day/month/year. For example: Should a taxi operator run out fuel for his/her vehicle they will not be able to get more until the next business day.
Things like extra Toothpaste, extra bars of soap, cellphones, calling cards, and etc. are considered luxury items and are only purchasable with Convertible Pesos.
1 Convertible Pesos = 24.00 Pesos.
Cuba has no freedom of Speech or Press.


Export of Professional services (doctors, engineers, etc.) are treated as commodities in exchange for foreign resources. (GOOD OR BAD???) Haven't really decided on that one yet.

Generally, in the point of view from a Canadian citizen, the Cuban lifestyle is not very inviting. But on the other hand, as a Canadian Citizen, I feel that I am way too well off and spoiled compared to that of Cuban people, and generally they are a whole lot happier than anyone I know living here in Canada.

Socialism/Communism would be a great wake up call for the people living in a broken democracy, because we, as a people, have become way too spoiled in Canada and USA, and take WAY too many things for granted as a nation. GIMMY GIMMY NEVER GETS..... Learn from it would ya!!!!

I don't blame the hard working entrepreneurs of our countries for rejecting the idea of socialism/communism, but capitalism is not a motivation tool for people anymore (especially the youth), considering that we have the opportunity to have anything and everything we could dream of (HDTV's, cellphones, fine dining, luxurious clothes, speed boats, etc). We live in a country where people feel they deserve to be born with a silver spoon in their mouth. That is a problem, and socialism might be the only salvation to straighten us out. Again, we take way too many things for granted, and need to either step up as a nation and take responsibility for ourselves or be babysat through government control.

Blame it on the parents who wanted to provide their narcissistic children with everything they didn't have. SPOILED SPOILED SPOILED we are.
SPARE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD??? What a #ing load of # that is.
We did it to ourselves.

If we continue on this current trend of ours, we are heading for disaster and will be swallowed WHOLE by some other nation. Guaranteed. Soooo, either sit back in your Lazy-boy recliner and watch your privileges (That's right, I said Privileges, not RIGHTS) be taken away, or get off your lazy ass and do something benevolent instead of thinking about yourself for a change.

Peace.

Originally posted by Monts
Communism is not pure communism until there is no need for government, and people live in a utopia.

That's according to Mr. Marx.

In principle, it's fantastic, and I'm sure many other civilizations have some kind of communist type of government, but unless the entire world is communist, and corruption is gone; it will fail.

Mr Marx was not known for having a firm grasp of reality...

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by arbiture

 

You know, I agree with much that you just posted, but I have to say I dont believe you have read Das Kapital. At most, I suspect you've seen a few quotes & then read into them what you were taught at an American high school.

If you really know about American high schools you will know that at least for a generation, they never covered this...

Hi Sky,

Originally posted by Skyfloating

"Looking after others" is so much conditioned into the Eastern European psyche through Communist Rule that they struggle greatly to get out of their "poor, poor you" victim-roles to become happy and prosperous.

They were certainly conditioned but lets not forget that those who already had other ideas or who didn't wish to be conditioned did not have much of a chance to survive the war and immediate post war era. The expectation that a society will not be changed when individuals with certain inclinations are systematically exterminated is odd and to blame the survivors for becoming what survival dictated they must be quite cruel.

The "poor me" mentality is a direct result of marx dictum that you are not a sovereign individual but an oppressed idiot.

I don't understand how you have managed to reach such a conclusion. Since when have oppressed idiots been encouraged to free themselves and go to school to become educated&skilled ( presuming we are all being propagandized in state schooling to varying degrees) enough to at the very least contribute more to their community than they used to? I do not for a moment believe that Russia and the former non voluntary SSR's could not have been healthier and wealthier without their tyrannical regimes ( it wasn't communism, even at the start) but then again i can also imagine Russia and Eastern Europe in general in even worse condition than they were turned into by Russian domination. Either way i do believe it comes down to expectations and conditions in Russia were by no means pleasant before the revolution trough no fault of Marx. Communism was not supposed to happen a peasant society any ways and the moment it's enforced by a few it's not communism but just another dictatorship.

Regards,

Stellar

Originally posted by grey580

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism.

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.

Without getting into school/education structures (ie Steiner Schools vs. Slave Factories), let me purpose a solution to this “reward=effort” dilema, Perhaps the students receiving A’s were “rewarded” with student leadership positions, given interesting problems to solve with fun and creative solutions, free time to self-teach with other A students, some sort of accumulative notation that would present opportunities later in life (leadership, advisory, relationships), medals to be worn on school uniform, good tickets to events/entertainment/restaurants etc etc.

What is money really getting us? It’s really just a faulty means of determining someones worth or contribution. For example, why are the companies who produce genetically modified, mass produced, less nutritious fruits and vegetables - rewarded more than the people who produce bio-dynamic, organic, sustainable, more nutritiously dense fruits and vegetables?

Capitalism is flawed because 9 times out of 10, it rewards quantity and cost:price ratio more than quality and renewability.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
You know why communism will never work? Because human beings have an instinct to control more resources than the next person so that we can obtain the best mating opportunities we can & provide the best security for our offspring. It is as simple as that.
You know why capitalism will never work? For the exact same reason.[...]

All of these inferences arise from the understanding that throughout our evolutionary journey we have had to survive in an environment of scarcity. Correct. Capitalism perpetuates this, so as to keep profits up, it’s a symptom of a system that is built on differential-advantage. If instead we did a scientific analysis and determined how much aluminium is in the ground, how much aluminium is needed – and distribute it in accordance with stability and sustainability in mind – the amount of waste and obsolescence would decline sharply.

As for procreation, it’s a shame people are turned-on by physical manifestations of material wealth – as if somehow this expresses the internal qualities needed for creating a better human being than those who conceived it. I think a world filled with people who thrive on intelligence and love are more important than people who are driven for a nest with more shiny things than their neighbours. And it’s not like everyone has to have kids either.

Originally posted by paraphi
Just to answer the question "is communism good"?

Well, no it is not. Communism has proven to be bad, bad, bad. Oh, I know there are those who cry that capitalism is bad too and they are here in this thread saying how terrible it all is and this, that and the other. Pleaes keep in mind that you are typing on a keyboard which is the direct result of capitalism. If mankind was entirely hobbled to communism it would stagnate.

Technology and tools come about because it makes life easier, people who create things (not the same as produce things) do so because it feels good – not because of money. Sure the person who invented the keyboard should be immortalised and given rewards (see above), but monetary gain isn’t a motivating force worthy of praise – as to use your example, instead of having just a few of the highest quality, most ergonomic and functional keyboards, we have hundreds of inferior designs that are cheap, not as good and as a result resource depleting.

Originally posted by PreyBird
Hey All,

I just got back from Cuba this weekend and went on a historic tour of the city of Havana. Alot of great info was provided. [...]

So jealous! I want to go and see it for myself too, just not it a position to do so at this point in time. I try to refrain from victim mentality, but whenever anyone talks about Cuba, you’ve got to remember that this is a tiny 3RD WORLD COUNTRY CRIPPLED BY SANCTIONS, yet it has shown itself to be more well off, and achieved amazing things more so than most if not all countries with a similar GDP.

As for Freedom of the Press, I wouldn’t allow it either if I had the US as my neighbour free to pollute my population with materialistic distortions of reality to create wanton lust and greed for things that would be wasteful and detrimental to society in the long run as it gradually progresses all the trappings associated with free-trade – ie consolidation of power in invested interests.

As for control and bureaucracy, alot of that could be put into computerised calculations and automated information distribution.

So yeah Communism is good – it’s just gotta be international enough so as to not be in fear of scarce resources and/or an invasion from vested interests.

Let the revolution begin!!

Proof is in the pudding. Look at history and the present and see how the people live under a communist government. Also a good indication is when the communist governments are about to fall apart you dont see people fighting to keep the system you see them wanting freedom.



Also research and see what people that lived under this rule think about it. They will tell you the truth. Also why do they limit free speech so much? Maybe they dont want the truth to get out.




Also communism and socialism dont really exist the are both oligarchies. And if you dont know what this is please look it up.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
Proof is in the pudding. Look at history and the present and see how the people live under a communist government. Also a good indication is when the communist governments are about to fall apart you dont see people fighting to keep the system you see them wanting freedom.

Also research and see what people that lived under this rule think about it. They will tell you the truth. Also why do they limit free speech so much? Maybe they dont want the truth to get out.

Also communism and socialism dont really exist the are both oligarchies. And if you dont know what this is please look it up.

There hasn't been a proper expression of Communism, because all of the countries attempting to implement a Marxist Revolution/Economy in modern history have been previously subject to extreme poverty and/or western imperialism.

Russia & China were and are nothing but bureaucratic dictatorships with a bit of propaganda sprinkled in the rhetoric. Cuba is different because of its size and sanctions.

As for Oligarchies, Capitalism creates the environment for Oligarchies to arise also, ie Corporatism.

Communism is the greatest form of Direct Democracy there is. But as the world is today, you need visionaries like Castro to have a dictatorship just to ensure that there is a continuation of the new-model, otherwise you end up regressing back to phony governments raping the country of origin for Western Imperialistic Corporatistic interests with little to no regard for the people or their health and well being.

As for speaking with people from communist countries, my Aunt and Uncle are from the Czech Republic (Czechoslovakia), and they have both said that in many ways it was better under "communism" because they had access to quality health-care and education for free, and now under capitalism - alot of such things have been corrupted and inequality has taken root.

[edit on 7/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Well maybe your relatives were party members. It is easy to say well it never really worked because this or that the truth it is is is a oligarchy. It is a system run by a small group of men. And it always fails not because it never got the chance but because it did get the chance.



You can not have a productive society based on trust mans heart will want more. Also why do they limit freedom and religion? It is because the system is fatally flawed and they know it.



In reality oligarchy's are the best way for TPTB to get the most bang for the buck out of the common man. They get less for their work and have to work harder. Also history has shown that anyone that lives in this system that does not agree with it has to leave or die. Is this freedom?




I think you are looking at the glamorised side of things and not seeing the cold hard truth.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Originally posted by Manouche
reply to post by grey580

 

And what if they had realised that it's not about having good grades but education, enlightment, accomplishment of oneself ? Your exemple shows how materialistic our mindset is. Good grades, fast cars, big houses are trivial goals.
I think true communism wouldn't work but certainly mankind would live better with more cooperation and less cutthroat competition.
We are a social specie like ants. We can't live on our own. We form colonies, have specialised workers. Egotism doesn't make sense, it's not the trait that allowed us to survive.

The example is what it is. And it's a good real world example.
Unfortunately you can't force people to more co operative and less cutthroat.

You can lead a horse to water.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by ghostsoldier

 

Well maybe your relatives were party members. It is easy to say well it never really worked because this or that the truth it is is is a oligarchy. It is a system run by a small group of men. And it always fails not because it never got the chance but because it did get the chance.

You can not have a productive society based on trust mans heart will want more. Also why do they limit freedom and religion? It is because the system is fatally flawed and they know it.

In reality oligarchy's are the best way for TPTB to get the most bang for the buck out of the common man. They get less for their work and have to work harder. Also history has shown that anyone that lives in this system that does not agree with it has to leave or die. Is this freedom?

I think you are looking at the glamorised side of things and not seeing the cold hard truth.

My Aunt and Uncle were not party members.

It fails because, the way international policy and diplomatic relations are carried it out often demonises and obstructs revolutionary changes. It fails because the revolution never spreads world wide, mainly because Anglo-American Imperialistic power and influence is thrust upon countries that step out of line, and massive propaganda campaigns dilute the reasoning and philosophy behind a Marxist revolutionary movement. The fear this creates opens room for "strong" leaders, which are most often corrupt.

We already have a society built on trust...

What Freedom is limited? that is not a result of self-preservation from outside influences. As I said, Communism is the greatest form of Direct Democracy there is, it usually gets perverted when the country is fighting unnecessary wars or it lacks the needed resources for construction projects etc.

Organised Religion is a no-no for obvious reasons, it's stupid, it creates segregation, and is the 'opiate of the masses' (ie, this life sucks, but I'll be rewarded with heaven when I die, and all of the problems of earth are gods design, evolution doesn't exist, blah blah blah) - can you see how the simple idea of evolution actually enlightens and raises consciousness in of itself.

Capitalism is also leave or die.

I think you're seeing what you are through a pair of Glenn Beck glasses, instead of an objective birds-eye version of reality. There is no 'cold-hard-truth' in what we're talking about here, we have a incomplete picture of reality built from multiple sides. You're just refusing to see both sides of the argument, and how this stupid American concept of THEM vs. US, has perverted human development and understanding from an objective collective point of view.

reply to post by grey580


You chose not to respond to my reply to your example... May I ask why?

firstly, I'd like to highlight that our system of government can be more described as a polyarchy, where the financial elite have all the ruling power. just to suggest something outside the box, something I heard Noam Chomsky point out that makes me realize how brainwashed we are since kids that we think the only effective way for a progressive society is to have a government, or some organized system with the majority of the power. Noam Chomsky points out that there has to be a variety of organizational methods which effectively maintain a society functional that don't involve governments, but yet not one of this sort has ever been introduced or attempted. I don't think Chomsky means full-on anarchy, as that is a bit extreme in my opinion; there just has to be a better method.