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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Taupin Desciple
I said, that if it is not my wife, sister, or daughter, then I don't have a right to judge. It is not my culture, my country, my family, or my religion, so I have absolutely zero knowledge of whether or not it is appropriate.
How can you NOT know that it is innapropriate for an 80 year old to bone a 12 year old? A 12 year old child is a 12 year old child regardless of their culture, country, family or religion. If you honestly don't know that yet, I strongly urge you to get out of the southeast and learn about people.
In addition, I gave the example of 12 to 80 being fairly obviously wrong, and yet legal in some cases, and 17 and 18 being fairly obviously right, yet still illegal even in the US!
WHAT'S YOUR POINT???? That because our politicians make and hold onto contadictory laws we, the people, aren't able to know what is morally right and what is not? What color is the sky in your world?
In one state, (Mississippi for example), you can have an 18 year old sentenced as a sex offender and forced to register with law enforcement for life because he had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend, and in the same town at the same time a parent can give consent for a 16 year old to marry a 50 year old with no repercussions?
If we can't decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, then how can we presume to decide for people thousands of miles away in entirely different cultures?
It sounds to me that YOU can't decide what's right or wrong because you are so engulfed in the backwards and outdated laws of where you live.
I admit that I would not allow my daughter to do this, but what do I know? Really . . . . think about it. If I lived in poverty, and my family was starving, and there was a good chance of my daughter starving or winding up in slavery or prostitution anyway, and an opportunity came along to pull my family out of its situation, provide for my daughter, and put her into a situation where she was obviously being exploited, but at least it was only by one man and according to accepted religious doctrines that would allow her entrance to heaven, and set her up as the matriarch of a new more successful family, then I can't say I wouldn't take that opportunity.
It sounds to that you don't wish to pass judgement here because you don't know what's right for your own child. [Your words, not mine]
And poverty? I don't have to think about, I lived it. When I was 14 my mother moved me and my 2 brothers to the Ozarks in southern Missouri. For the first year we didn't have electricity and we never had running water or gas. There were many nights when I went to bed cold and hungry. My mother and older brother did the best they could for 5 years, but it never got much better. But at least we tried for the sake of self-suffiency and a better life. We toughed it out. We never took the easy way out. Looking back, I'm glad that I had that experience in my life because it helped shape me into the man I am today. I learned that hard work pays off and that which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Seems to me that if you were faced with the same situation you would have quickly, and without regret, prostituted your own daughter to the highest bidder for an easy way out. I feel pity for you and feel sorry for your daughter.
Would you refuse something lawful and religiously accepted that would help your family, just because some outsiders viewpoint tried to convince you it was morally wrong?
No. I would refuse something lawful and religously accepted that would help my family if I knew it were MORALLY wrong. I don't need to compare myself to other people to know what I'm about.
Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Taupin Desciple
No. I would refuse something lawful and religously accepted that would help my family if I knew it were MORALLY wrong. I don't need to compare myself to other people to know what I'm about.
That is a good answer and I agree.
But, if your culture and your laws and your religion and your ancestors and parents all tell you something is morally acceptable, then how are you to know it is wrong?
Originally posted by Subjective Truth
Like I have said on countless threads before all you lover's of the Muslim faith take a good hard look at reality. The Muslim faith should be put to an end and at whatever cost it takes to us and to them. And to all you moderate Muslim why don't you stand up and and band together to stop this kind of behavior?
If a religious cult started today and found this kind of behaviour exceptable everyone would be up in arms. Also if a christian religion started to do this the very people defending the Muslim would turn on the Christians.
Muslim men are for the most part bad human beings and Muslim women for the most part are weak human beings and this is brought on by religion not ethnicity. The truth is harsh we need to ban the Muslim faith and put a real end to it at any cost and if we don't when they have the chance to do it you better bet they will do it if the shoe is on the other foot.
[edit on 10-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]
[edit on 10-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]
[edit on 10-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]
Originally posted by harrytuttle
So this week we've been reminded that in the Middle East/Turkey:
* It's OK to bury alive a 16 year old girl if she talks to boys
* It's OK to marry a 8 year old girl and rape her
Umm...yeah, are we sure these people are even human?
Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Taupin Desciple
OK. So what is the line and who gets to decide?
Was the 17 and 18 year old example I gave wrong? Because it is a true case and the 18 year old is a registered sex offender and even though they are both in their 20's now, the court continues to renew a restraining order to keep them apart?
What about 80 and 50, or 50 and 20, or 18 and 16 or 16 and 17? Does it matter which sex is older and which is younger? Is a 40 year old man and a 20 year old woman different than a 40 year old woman and a 20 year old man? What if the Woman was 80 and the Man was 20, 30, 40?
It is very easy to condemn 12 and 80, but it is a slippery slope, so you have to be willing to put your a** on the line and decide what is "morally right" in your opinion. It is not enough to sit on the side lines and point out the obvious wrongs, you have to be able to draw a line somewhere, and that is not easy!
Every age difference that you use for your argument signifies a person who is mature enough to make their own decisions. If a 17 year old and an 18 year are in love and want to marry, more power to them. There's nothing wrong with that. They're both old enough to make up their own minds. Morality comes into play here because the marraige in consensual, they love each other, and they are both old enough to make up their own minds. You can insert your own age differences at this point.
Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Taupin Desciple
Every age difference that you use for your argument signifies a person who is mature enough to make their own decisions. If a 17 year old and an 18 year are in love and want to marry, more power to them. There's nothing wrong with that. They're both old enough to make up their own minds. Morality comes into play here because the marraige in consensual, they love each other, and they are both old enough to make up their own minds. You can insert your own age differences at this point.
You are right, I guess I was making two different arguments, and I think we agree on one of them.
1. The law is flawed and should NOT be used a a moral yardstick.
-->The law in that Culture allowed this marriage, while the law in the US prosecuted the 18 year old and basically ruined his life for wanting to marry the 17 year old?
1.a. Most people who condemn Muslims, or other cultures/countries/religions do so from an elitist view point that their country/culture/religion is superior, and I was trying to point out the falsehood of that notion. Our "Western" way is not superior, it is equally flawed, and equally harmful.
2. The people involved should have the final say, and in this case the mother and her daughter should have the final say, and it should never have happened. However, what if the mother and daughter had agreed to it. It would still seem morally wrong from a Western perspective. Would you still argue the same way if all parties were in agreement?
3. We still didn't determine the "appropriate" age for marriage. Biology says 12 or 13 or younger in many cases is appropriate for reproduction. No matter how "civilized" we become, we can't change the biology aspect.
Parent's can consent to a young child getting married to an older man. It can be perfectly legal. Unfortunately, it can also become illegal at the discretion of any over-zealous prosecutor.
It is conceivable (and has happened) in the U.S. that a 13 year old could legally marry a 17 year old, and she could become pregnant, and all parties (including biology) could consent, and then some "moral barometer" of a prosecutor could decide to put the now 18 year old in jail, force the couple apart, force the father to never see his bride or baby again?
How can that be morally right?
In one case, an 18 year old could be taking advantage of a 14 year old, and would deserve prison, but in another case you are breaking up a happy family?
I don't want to be the one deciding which case is which!! And I don't think any unaffiliated person or law should be allowed to make that decision. That is my main argument.
[edit on 10-2-2010 by getreadyalready]