An Interesting Conversation Between A Student And Teacher

I think the professor and the student need to take a logic 101 course.

Because both of their arguments are flawed.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I have also provided example of macroevolution, if you would be so kind as to look at my previous posts and do a little non-forum reading. Science is a wonderful thing when you decide to explore it a bit.

Originally posted by marsvolta
that`s right, that students reasoning is only good for cheap laughs. a class clown.

" have you seen porf`s brains?" everyone laughs. there are quite a few people who have seen it. medical personnel for example. brains are available for everyone to go see in museums of natural sciences. has everyone seen God? is it available for everyone to go see it? please.


Perhaps he should've said 'Has anyone seen the Proffessors' mind? Sure, you can go to an autopsy table or natural science museum and see a brain, but that isn't the mind. That might be the home of the thought processes, but it isn't the mind.
Does that make it less spurious for you?

Has everyone here seen Joe Rogans stuff, I have seen people talking about evolution, god etc... if you have not heard any of his stuff you should sus it out he is funny and has some interesting thoughts. Here is a few links:

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
You do realize that evolution occurs in spurts, not a long, slow process, right? We've demonstrated many times in laboratory experiments that evolution is often a response to stress. We've also discovered several new species in the last 200 years or so, often with characteristics linking them to other nearby species and suggesting a recent evolutionary shift.

But where does this "stress" come from? I am aware of the purpose of adaptation, but what is its cause? Evolution - like religion - cannot explain how the very first type of matter came into existence.

Why does it have to be an "entity"? Why can't we simply just admit (like most scientists do) that nature is incredibly versatile and we just don't know every precise answer yet? Does lack of evidence IMMEDIATELY have to point to a magical ghost in the sky?

I was using "entity" in the very broad sense, not referring to a specific "thing" but rather something(s) beyond my comprehension. I agree that we don't have the answers. One of the reasons people "point to a magical ghost in the sky" is because we are curious beings and the thought that we have no purpose or reason for being here scares us deeply. For some it is a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they don't know why they are here or what they should be doing.

you all know that this story is made up right? some of you are so convinced this actually took place i can see your pride.

god would not lie, why would you? i heard another one about a guy who was walking on a beach, at first there was 2 footprints. time got rough, there's only one set of footprint now. turns out god was carrying him and everyone in church was happy, some even cried. it's a fictional story, i guess people just don't realize it and they get excited over some BS.

this proves nothing.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by DOADOA]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
do a little non-forum reading

Science is a wonderful thing when you decide to explore it a bit.

What does this have to do with the Conversation we were just having?

I asked a question regarding my analogy. I´ll ask again: What "caused" the death of the Bug?

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
[
But where does this "stress" come from? I am aware of the purpose of adaptation, but what is its cause? Evolution - like religion - cannot explain how the very first type of matter came into existence.

It can come from chemical stressors, environmental stressors, reproductive stressors, or even just energetic stressors. Look up the Miller-Urey experiment for an example of energetic stressors. In essence, they (along with everyone who has repeated and validated the experiment since then) used a flask containing liquid and gas simulating what we currently believe primitive Earth held. Give it a jolt of energy, much like a lightning bolt, and simple organic compounds begin to form.

As for the very first bit of matter, that's a circular question. As best as we can tell, matter and energy have always existed, with the balance between teh two shifting constantly. Prior to the big bang, there was a big crunch, which was predated by another big bang, another big crunch, and so on.

I was using "entity" in the very broad sense, not referring to a specific "thing" but rather something(s) beyond my comprehension. I agree that we don't have the answers. One of the reasons people "point to a magical ghost in the sky" is because we are curious beings and the thought that we have no purpose or reason for being here scares us deeply. For some it is a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they don't know why they are here or what they should be doing.

I agree entirely with this quote.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
do a little non-forum reading

Science is a wonderful thing when you decide to explore it a bit.

What does this have to do with the Conversation we were just having?

I asked a question regarding my analogy. I´ll ask again: What "caused" the death of the Bug?

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

I'll answer that when you answer my question regarding macroevolution and the evidence for it. I don't like to move on to other topics before having finished addressing the previous. Switching topics is a common stall tactic of those with weak arguments, so I would prefer you didn't do that.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Thank you so very much for posting that. I really admired Dr. Abdul Kalam but after reading the beautiful article I understand why he was craze of India (specially youngsters) during his term as President and even now.

I once read about him that during his term as President when he went to foreign visits to meet dignitaries he used to make (power point) presentations and gave lectures on various topics, which no other President or Prime Minister ever do. His down to earth behavior and his words on basis of logic and facts are very inspiring.

He is a role model and legend for millions of youngsters and rightly so. Kudos to him !!

Dr. Kalam's Facebook page
www.facebook.com...

and many of his lectures can be found here
www.indiavision2020.org...

“You have to dream before your dreams can come true.” - Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam

S&F.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
I'll answer that when you answer my question regarding macroevolution and the evidence for it. I don't like to move on to other topics before having finished addressing the previous. Switching topics is a common stall tactic of those with weak arguments, so I would prefer you didn't do that.

Actually your post before last is an ad-hominem attack, and this one is a deflection. You did not pose a question regarding macroevolution.

Nevermind - I know you cant answer the cause-question, otherwise you already would have.

And so the original statement stands:

*Correlation does not imply Causation*

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


You asked how this relates to macroevolution, and I referred you to my previous post which gave three examples of macroevolution in the recent geologic era.

You then post an inane question about an apple squashing a bug, which is an oversimplification of directed and non-directed evolution. Again, this is basic science.

I'll ask once more, please address the examples of macroevolution I provided prior to switching topics. Otherwise, I'll assume you have no answer.

It's also interesting to note that I looked at your post history and it seems you are more willing to believe in "psycho-spiritual time travel" than basic tenets of molecular biology. I think this may be where the main rift between the two of us is occuring.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
You asked how this relates to macroevolution, and I referred you to my previous post which gave three examples of macroevolution in the recent geologic era.

Tactic 1 - unspecific reference to previous works

You then post an inane question about an apple squashing a bug, which is an oversimplification of directed and non-directed evolution. Again, this is basic science.

Tactic 2 - Ridicule the Question instead of answering it

I'll ask once more, please address the examples of macroevolution I provided prior to switching topics. Otherwise, I'll assume you have no answer.

Tactic 3 - Reversing who asked a question

It's also interesting to note that I looked at your post history and it seems you are more willing to believe in "psycho-spiritual time travel" than basic tenets of molecular biology.

Tactic 4 - deflective off-topic personal attack, and also a lie (as I do believe in the basics of science)

And all this only because I asked "What caused the death of the Bug"?

My oh my


[edit on 2-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

I´ll answer the question for you: No-thing caused the death of the Bug.

This story has the reek of the "Professor and chalk" story. I need a better source to believe this.

Also, would a true man of science declare with absolute certainty, regardless of personal belief, that god does not exist?

If we could give negative stars and flags, I would give this thread and original post just that.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm still waiting for your response to the posts I referenced. I've quoted them here for your convenience:

We observe evolution everyday and can stimulate its occurrence in the laboratory in bacteria. As for macroeveolution, we have countless fossils and even living examples. One would be the salamanders living around the grand canyon. There are several zones of a given width around the canyon. Only adjacent zones can interbreed. while those zones with one intervening zone cannot. This is due to a geographic separation becoming large enough that the species evolved differently and no longer have genes similar enough to produce viable offspring.

We've also discovered several new species in the last 200 years or so, often with characteristics linking them to other nearby species and suggesting a recent evolutionary shift.

Research the lion populations of central Africa, the finches of the Galapagos, or the salamanders of the Grand Canyon. All of these are recent evolutionary changes.

These demonstrate macroevolution. As I've also previously stated, the reason I'm not answering your question is because it is a loaded question. Regardless of how I answer, you've already prepared a "gotcha" retort geared toward "showing me" how I'm wrong. There is no right answer, as your example is neither a verifiable and repeatable situation (as science requires), nor is it a realistical experimental scenario.


[edit on 2/2/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

just my humble opinion - but [ in the absence of any credible citations for this alleged event ] believe the entire conversation to be a ficticious narrative .

the reasons :

APJ Abdul Kalam lists his religious affiliation as " moslem " - whereas the slant of the " conversation " has a distinctly christian twist

like much fictional narrative - the alleged "conversation " over reaches itself by interjecting omnicient observations as to the state of mind of the participants

thought i cannot find a source - i am certain i have seen a near identical alledged dialogue attributed to other people

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Moonsouljah

 

Im sure he says god tells him all sorts of stuff. At the top of every religion there is always a liar shoveling %^&$ into the ears of their believers. Its a pitty god does nothing. O right, its satans fault.....

Actually if you would know about Dr Abdul Kalam you wouldn't ask such questions or state such ignorant statements.

Are you aware the person is an :
* Aerospace Engineer and was Project Director in the development of India's first indigenous Satellite Launch Vehicle
* He was responsible for the evolution of ISRO's launch vehicle programme, particularly the PSLV configuration.
* He has served as Chairman of Technology Information, Forecasting and Assessment Council (TIFAC) and as an eminent scientist, he led the country with the help of 500 experts to arrive at Technology Vision 2020 giving a road map for transforming India from the present developing status to a developed nation.
* Dr. Kalam has served as the Principal Scientific Advisor to the Government of India, in the rank of Cabinet Minister, from November 1999 to November 2001 and was responsible for evolving policies, strategies and missions for many development applications.
* Dr. Kalam was also the Chairman, Ex-officio, of the Scientific Advisory Committee to the Cabinet (SAC-C) and piloted India Millennium Mission 2020.
* Dr. Kalam took up academic pursuit as Professor, Technology & Societal Transformation at Anna University, Chennai from November 2001 and was involved in teaching and research tasks.
* As Chief Executive of Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), he also played a major part in developing many missiles of India.
* He has also been Chief Scientific Adviser to Prime Minister and Secretary, Department of Defence Research & Development from July 1992 to December 1999.
* And India's Pokhran-II nuclear tests were conducted during this period, led by him?
* EX- President of India
* Above all he took up a mission to ignite the young minds for national development by meeting high school students across the country.

and are you aware:

* Dr. Kalam is one of the most distinguished scientists of India with the unique honour of receiving honorary doctorates from 30 universities and institutions.
* He has been awarded the coveted civilian awards - Padma Bhushan (1981) and Padma Vibhushan (1990) and the highest civilian award Bharat Ratna (1997).
* He is a recipient of several other awards and Fellow of many professional institutions.

In short he is a Engineer, Scientist, Professor, Advisor and a former President and all you can talk about is his religion!! You can talk about him to any - Hindu, Sikh or Christian in India and it won't matter to them what religion is he of. They will only have praise for him. Go and talk about him to any youngster (growth) in India and how he is still helping young generations.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


You misjudge your opposite. He does not question or doubt the validity of Evolution (Macro or Micro), nor Science.

Because you have had so many spiritual people oppose Science, you assume that I do too. But you got the wrong fellow.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by December_Rain


he is also a moslem - why is he argueing a christian dogma ?