why Small Arms Protective Inserts Sucks?

Here are some reasons where Small arms Protective Insert ceramic Plates Sucks:

They can only stop 2-3 High velocity Rifle Bullets until it Completely Useless where in the Warzone the Soldiers encounters Hundreds of Bullets before they have any chance to retrieve new Ceramic Plates

that Ceramic Plate can be Restrictive to soldier's Movement

and armor Piercing Bullets can Penetrate any Type of Small arms Protective Inserts including Type IV Protection

But at least they CAN stop high velocity rifle bullets.

Which is why they don´t suck. /thread

reply to post by masonicon


Better than nothing right?

Unless you are proposing an alternative that doesn't "suck"?

Originally posted by Lonestar24
But at least they CAN stop high velocity rifle bullets.

Which is why they don´t suck. /thread

They can Only Stop High Velocity Rifle Bullets for 3 Times

The odds of getting hit more than once are astronomical. Once hit you invariably change to new plates in your vest. It isn't like you stand there with your vest on and wait to be hit. They aren't meant to be a perfect shied to protect you. They are to, hopefully, minimize the damage when you are in a firefight and get hit. As far as I know, protective force fields aren't standard issue yet!
Zindo

Originally posted by masonicon

Originally posted by Lonestar24
But at least they CAN stop high velocity rifle bullets.

Which is why they don´t suck. /thread

They can Only Stop High Velocity Rifle Bullets for 3 Times

As opposed to none at all without wearing SAPI plates. So what exactly is your point? There is no magical wonder armour made from unobtanium around. Physics are physics.

reply to post by masonicon


The plates are resistant not bullet proof. Sooner of later it would break down but then soldiers and Marines are not stupid enough to allow the Taliban to shoot them in the same place if they manage to hit them once already. Good thing is that the Taliban tends to spray and pray and are not very good shooters. Also the military is already procuring a plate that can resist to AP rounds. And the military is looking into flexible armor vest currently. In any care there are ups and downs of ceramic plates but its better than nothing since nothing else can do the same job as advertise.

[edit on 15-1-2010 by deltaboy]

This has got to be the most worthless thread I have read on ATS so far in 2010. Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of donning body armor (as I have in my days in the USArmy & Private Sectors) will tell you that although it does offer some small amount of protection, it is more useful phsycologically as a peace of mind. You do not plan on getting shot. Armor or no armor. Like others have already stated, until they have perfected some kind of man sized force field, there is nothing safer on the market.

Explanation: They are called "Small Arms Protective Inserts" for a very good reason and that is that they do exactly the job they are named for doing, and what EXACTLY is that?

A] It's STOPPING Incoming Small Arms Fire! Thats What!!!

Personal Disclosure: When was the last time a "High velocity Rifle Bullets" was classed as a Small Arms Calibre Munition?

P.S. That they even stop just ONE "High velocity Rifle Bullet" is Amazingly COOL I would say!

Edited eemoticon fail :shk:

[edit on 15-1-2010 by OmegaLogos]

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
The odds of getting hit more than once are astronomical. Once hit you invariably change to new plates in your vest. It isn't like you stand there with your vest on and wait to be hit. They aren't meant to be a perfect shied to protect you. They are to, hopefully, minimize the damage when you are in a firefight and get hit. As far as I know, protective force fields aren't standard issue yet!
Zindo

But this is Different story when a Soldier encounters Automatic Firearms that fires Sustained fire.

Originally posted by masonicon
But this is Different story when a Soldier encounters Automatic Firearms that fires Sustained fire.

Automatic fire is not exactly accurate. Its meant to but bullets over acres of land real quick, not multiple bullets into one dude. How wide is a person? A couple feet? I know guys who have taken rounds from machine guns (and not just the AK). I don't know any that have been shot twice on the same occaision. You generally try not to stand still long enough to get shot more than once.

When I was over there, I was much more concerned with precision fire than automatic. The snipers knew that the eSAPI plates would stop a bullet, so they aimed for your legs. A shot to the femoral artery will kill you just as dead as one to the heart.

Armor is generally designed to stop shrapnel rather than bullets. Shrapnel is everywhere but bullets require a concerted effort by the enemy to kill you coupled with a heavy measure of luck. The SAPI plates work better than our helmets. At least they'll stop one bullet. You'll never know if you take a square shot the the helmet. There is a reason they call it a brain bucket.

Originally posted by WhiteOneActual

Originally posted by masonicon
But this is Different story when a Soldier encounters Automatic Firearms that fires Sustained fire.

Automatic fire is not exactly accurate. Its meant to but bullets over acres of land real quick, not multiple bullets into one dude. How wide is a person? A couple feet? I know guys who have taken rounds from machine guns (and not just the AK). I don't know any that have been shot twice on the same occaision. You generally try not to stand still long enough to get shot more than once.

When I was over there, I was much more concerned with precision fire than automatic. The snipers knew that the eSAPI plates would stop a bullet, so they aimed for your legs. A shot to the femoral artery will kill you just as dead as one to the heart.

Armor is generally designed to stop shrapnel rather than bullets. Shrapnel is everywhere but bullets require a concerted effort by the enemy to kill you coupled with a heavy measure of luck. The SAPI plates work better than our helmets. At least they'll stop one bullet. You'll never know if you take a square shot the the helmet. There is a reason they call it a brain bucket.

But why they still can't stop shrapnels from Improvised explosive Devices?(we know most casualties of USA and it's coalition soldiers that they suffers are caused by Improvised explosive Devices)

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
The odds of getting hit more than once are astronomical. Once hit you invariably change to new plates in your vest. It isn't like you stand there with your vest on and wait to be hit. They aren't meant to be a perfect shied to protect you. They are to, hopefully, minimize the damage when you are in a firefight and get hit. As far as I know, protective force fields aren't standard issue yet!
Zindo

Unless if you are One Man army

[edit on 16-1-2010 by masonicon]

Originally posted by masonicon
But why they still can't stop shrapnels from Improvised explosive Devices?(we know most casualties of USA and it's coalition soldiers that they suffers are caused by Improvised explosive Devices)

The eSAPI does stop shrapnel from IEDs. The problem is that shrapnel doesn't aim.

Riflemen naturally aim for the torso. It is the largest part of the body and conviniently the most likely to produce a lethal wound. That is why we wear "bulletproof vests."

We don't wear bulletproof suits. Fatal shrapnel wounds are generally incurred in area that the vest doesn't cover- neck, armpits, groin. We wear plates over our lower torso now to improve survivability. The vest is like a sandwich board. It leaves a lot uncovered. Its heavy. Its hot. It isn't perfect, but its better than nothing.

I would consider buying Dragonskin if it didn't negate my life insurance.

Is it the best money can buy? Probably not, they're made by the lowest bidder. But you won't catch me going near, let alone outside, the wire without it on.

Originally posted by masonicon
But why they still can't stop shrapnels from Improvised explosive Devices?(we know most casualties of USA and it's coalition soldiers that they suffers are caused by Improvised explosive Devices)

They will, but only to the Torso.

An IED causes massive amounts of shrapnel of varying sizes and velocities to be displaced over a large and usually pretty indiscriminate area. While a vest may protect the torso it doesn't protect the neck, face, groin etc. These are all areas that contain large vessels that, if cut, will cause a casualty to bleed out in minutes few.

The blast from an IED/mine can also lead to traumatic amputation of one or more limbs, not to mention decapitation. Remember many of the IEDs we encounter are made from old ordinance designed to penetrate tank armour. No vest can protect against this. All you can hope for is that you are not right on top of the thing when it blows and you only catch a bit of shrapnel Then the wounds can be treated, assuming you aren't killed immediately.

Put it this way. A penetrating injury to any external part of the body can be treated well by a team medic or even joe squaddy using basic medical kit on issue to him (Emergency bandage, Combat Application Tourniquet, Haemcon etc). The casualty can probably survive for some time before surgery is required. Assuming they were treated quickly and properly, the cause of death for this casualty would only come from sepsis, which our docs and nurses are pretty good at preventing. A penetrating injury to the torso on the other hand will almost certainly need surgical intervention within the first 1-2 hours to prevent death from internal bleeding or organ failure. (For those of you who want to know more about this, google the trimodal distribution of death).

Current issue body armour is designed to protect these areas while still allowing the soldier enough movement to perform their task.

I tend to agree about the state of modern body armor being abysmal but for much different reasons than most people... Why have we ignored the centuries of armor development that came before this? Well dragonskin didn't and that's why they have such a functional and superior piece of equipment.

We really should be taking a look at roman and other armors of successful highly mobile armys and adapting their designs to modern materials and threats.

One of the most ironic things I find though is this stupid insistence on a single armor type... knights and foot archers didn't wear the same armor... our drivers and ringmount gunners should be wearing heavier aux armor of a much heavier and comprehensive nature... Hey on helos and hummers etc you could even run a skin contact vest with micro tubules in it that circulated cooled or warmed fluid that was tied into the climate control system keeping soldiers at optimal fighting temperature even ... the vest wouldn't weigh much if the pump mechanism etc was on the vehicle ... then in the event they had to go foot mobile they could ditch this heavy over armor and run in their standard infantry type vests they still have on underneath... (ps this micro tubule vest with water in it could also serve a secondary purpose of impact attenuation since water doesn't compress the shock of the vest driving back into it would tend to spread through the water and not be so centralized reducing blunt force trauma wounds.

More thoughts to come if y'all are interested... I have some specific armor ideas in mind and a pretty good idea of how to carry it off. but I don't want to bore anyone so let me know if y'all want to see what I'm thinking.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Explanation: They are called "Small Arms Protective Inserts" for a very good reason and that is that they do exactly the job they are named for doing, and what EXACTLY is that?

A] It's STOPPING Incoming Small Arms Fire! Thats What!!!

Personal Disclosure: When was the last time a "High velocity Rifle Bullets" was classed as a Small Arms Calibre Munition?

[edit on 15-1-2010 by OmegaLogos]

Small arms are basicly most infantry weapons that a single person could carry. sometimes including up to .50cal rounds.

well lets try and make this post meaning full.does anyone know about the titanium plates and their bullet resistance??titanuim is a lot lighter and stonger than any metal, how does a 1/8 tit plate stand up to 223 and 308 ap inside a level 4 vest??

reply to post by madokie


Titanium isn't anything super special against bullets. It's stronger than steel per weight, but not per thickness. From what I've read, it's about 25% more weight efficient as armor than steel. Ballistic plates are ceramics now, not steel, and offer better protection than that.

1/8 inch titanium offers the protection of about 1/10 inch steel but weighs less. This gives dick all protection against .223 and .308. military FMJ .223 and .308 easily penetrate 1/4 inch steel plate, so you would need at least 3/8 inch titanium to have any hope of stopping .223, let alone .308.

Running the numbers, an extra large ballistic plate (11x14) made of 3/8 inch titanium (.1625 lbs/inch^3) would weigh about 9.4 pounds.
Compare this to to a ceramic plate of the same size which weighs about 5.3 pounds for SAPI or 7.3 pounds for ESAPI, both of which stop more powerful rounds than 3/8 titanium can.

Anyway, SAPI plates can actually stop rifle rounds which is more than you can say about almost any body armor. More protection means more weight and bulk, and small arms fire amounts to a rather small percent of people injured in warfare. War isn't like video games, people don't regularly get shot more than once less than two inches apart.

The arms companies should just bring magnetic arms deflectors to public or at least military market and stop withholding it for their own personal use.