"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Originally posted by kindred

I think I've proved my point. Guns kill.

No you haven't. Morons who can't follow basic gun safety caused these incidents. An unloaded gun is perfectly safe, unless you drop it on your foot. Several years ago the local news had a story about a two year old shooting herself with a 9mm pistol. People were saying how sad they were that it happened and were actually taking up a collection for the family. Nothing was said about the moron (the father) who left a cocked and loaded 9mm pistol, with a hair trigger and the safety disabled on a coffee table where that baby could reach it. These are the people who give responsible gun owners a bad name.

We need to stop responding to the lowest denominator in society. I am sick of laws that are passed on the basis of "what if?". We need to put personal responsibility back into our society.

A few weeks ago I was visiting my Mother in a hospital in Pittsburgh. It was late in the evening when I went back into a parking garage to get my car. There were three men in their late teens to early twenties, right outside of the elevator. One of them pulled a knife and demanded my money. I moved my arm so that my jacket pulled back, exposing my pistol in a shoulder holster. All three of the men took off running. I then phoned the Police with a description, got into my car and left.

What if I was unarmed or a woman? What would have happened? Legally I would have been within my rights to have pulled the pistol and shot the man with the knife, some people have criticized me because I didn't. Their arguement is that since I left them go, they are free to try to rob someone else, who might not have the means to defend themselves.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that the Police are under no obligation to protect an individual (Gonzalas vs Castle Rock), that their duty is to Society as a whole. This means that I am responsible for protecting my family and myself. I don't know what the situation is in other countries, but, I believe that the Government in the UK and Austrailia has done a great disservice to their citizens, by removing one of the most effective ways that their citizens can protect themselves.

If we wish to live in a civilised society, then there is no place for guns. Guns have one purpose and that is to maim or kill. Every law abiding citizen in the UK agrees with me. Why?, because they are civilised

Originally posted by kindred
If we wish to live in a civilised society, then there is no place for guns. Guns have one purpose and that is to maim or kill.

Every law abiding citizen in the UK agrees with me. Why?, because they are civilised

Bullsh*t. What are you going to about the ones who are not law abiding?

I am pretty sure that not everybody agrees with you. If they did, there would be no reason to have anti-gun laws. Nobody would own one even if they were legal.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by JIMC5499]

I believe in the Constitution of the United States. I have lived here for 49 years and plan to die here. I have friends who own hundreds of guns and in my whole lifetime, none of their hundreds of guns have ever killed or hurt anyone, whether it be intentional or accidentally.
I also know that if the government tried to take their guns, the same guns that they have owned for years and years and that have never hurt anyone, those guns would be used to defend their Constitutional Rights as an American.
If you don't like the Constitution and the rights that it gives American citizens, then you don't have to live here. There are many other countries in the world. Americans will never let their Rights be infringed upon.

I for one agree with EVERYTHING that the poster named DOC has said in this thread!
If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns...


[edit on 2-2-2010 by kennylee]

reply to post by kindred


You're all much more civilized. Living in fear and all.

A 23-year-old Watford man so feared moving to South Oxhey he bought a stun gun to protect himself and his family.

Lloyd Franklin purchased the prohibited weapon, disguised as a mobile phone, on the internet from America.

He perceived it to be so dangerous, because of the alleged racism in that area and high crime rate, that he felt he needed that item for self defence of himself and his family.

Franklin was also affected by having "stood by" and watched a friend being attacked by a gang with a slab of concrete, which left the friend in hospital for two weeks, the court heard.

For his offenses he will get "re-programmed".

Franklin must also attend the thinking skills programme with probation during 18 months of supervision.

No doubt he will be taught the same lesson so many women in America are taught. Better off a dead martyr politicians can use to stand on to push their control agendas than a living survivor who fought back.

We all know civilized people politely roll over and get mugged, robbed, stabbed, raped, killed. Only thugs and brutes dare defend themselves.

Source

Whatever happened to "may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions"?

I'm sorry but we don't live in fear. If anyone lives in fear it's some of you Americans, which is the main reason you see the need to carry guns. Gun related crimes in this country are very rare, especially compared to countries like America. If you want to carry guns that's your prerogative, but here in the UK, the majority of people don't want them and don't need them.


[edit on 2-2-2010 by kindred]

reply to post by kindred


Which is why you still bow to that haggard old queen.

Nuff said.

Ok but what if you put a gun in room full of chimpanzees would you trust them?

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Owner shot by his own dog, a great dane.




[edit on 2-2-2010 by kindred]

reply to post by The time lord


Cant watch the vid at work but if that's the story I'm thinking of the best part about that whole thing is when the woman, speaking of the dog, says "I didnt think he had it in him."

As though the dog intentionally shot the guy.

People are so astoundingly stupid.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
[

We need to stop responding to the lowest denominator in society. I am sick of laws that are passed on the basis of "what if?". We need to put personal responsibility back into our society.





I would love to jump on board the personal responsibility band wagon, but the problem is stupid irresponsible people are breeding at a much faster rate than the responsible people. You wouldn't want to serve whiskey at a high school dance because there happen to be a few adult chapperones present, and not serving whiskey would take the decision of personal responsibility away from the adults and cater to the lowest common denominator. Yet, in our society, irresponsible people are breeding at faster rates than the responsible people and outnumber the responsible people. Responsible people are like chapperones at a high school dance.

The fact is, there are a lot of stupid people out there. These people never learned to contain their impulses because their only role models were mothers who brought them into this world by having sex with numerous men just because they felt like it. Can you trust a class of people who cannot remember to put a condom on a penis to keep the safety lock in the "on" position? Do you think people who have a casual attitude about bringing a life into this world will put any thought into a decision to take a life out of this world?

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
You wouldn't want to serve whiskey at a high school dance because there happen to be a few adult chapperones present, and not serving whiskey would take the decision of personal responsibility away from the adults and cater to the lowest common denominator.

I wouldnt because knowing high school kids they opt for the worst garbage in the largest plastic bottle they could find then drown it in cola or some other sweet crap. What a waste.

Do you think people who have a casual attitude about bringing a life into this world will put any thought into a decision to take a life out of this world?

Those same people dont very much care about legality or follow law. Which means only the people who arent completely reckless buffoons will be affected by any laws, regulations or bans. Making the whole "for our safety" position moot.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I agree that no ban on guns is going to be 100% effective. There will always be contraband guns in circulation, and those guns are usually going to be in the hands of criminals. It would be foolish to suggest a ban could completely eliminate gun crimes.

However, a ban could reduce the number of guns in circulation. A reduction in the number of guns could correspond into some reduction in the number of gun crimes. It would all depend on whether the reduction of crime due to a lack of guns is offset by an increase in crime due to the few people with contraband guns being emboldened by the belief that there is little likelihood their victims will be armed.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
It would all depend on whether the reduction of crime due to a lack of guns is offset by an increase in crime due to the few people with contraband guns being emboldened by the belief that there is little likelihood their victims will be armed.

Not only that but an increase in criminal activity due to the wholly black market nature of the good. Think of our glorious drug war and all the security and safety that has brought us.

America being along such massive borders, one being along one of the most corrupt continents on earth, doesnt help much either.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

It would all depend on whether the reduction of crime due to a lack of guns is offset by an increase in crime due to the few people with contraband guns being emboldened by the belief that there is little likelihood their victims will be armed.

I do believe there would be a HUGE crime wave where I live considering the amount of people that open carry and the amount of convenience stores that are armed.

Secure

I had to look

www.nationmaster.com...

older news, 2006 but still...
www.gallup.com...

Basically I googled "Britain crime rate" nothing for or against in the search. Article after article says crime rate per capita is worse in Great Britain.

Nothing anyone says can convince me that having RESPONSIBLE ownership of guns is in any way detrimental. Yes America has higher murder rates, as far as I'm concerned that just means we play for keeps.

Casing

I'm sorry, I really have to go against the grain here. I am a Brit. Always have been, always will be. Its in my blood, and my kins blood. In fact, I'm a Welshman. I have emigrated to the USA. I have been here, nigh on 5 years now. And you know what? I have my concealed carry permit (yes, its legal for me to have it)
And do you know why I have it? Its because I am so sick, of having absolutly no form of rebuttal, when I have to defend myself, or my family, or my family's family, while the thugs, gangbangers, low life scum, muggers, rapists, child molesters et al, get to walk free from court (in a lot of cases with just a slap on the wrist) to possibly serving a life sentance (which, btw, isnt really a life sentence in the UK), whereas my family have to live with whatever heinous crime was commited against them, for ever. And yes, I AM a law abiding citizen. This is all my POV from being born, working and living in the UK

Here in the US, (at least, the state I live in) we have the Castle Doctrine. Which basically states, in so many words, any punk SOB that breaks into my home, with the intent to cause harm to anyone in my residence, then I have a legal right, to put as many rounds into him, as need be, in order to stop the threat. This also covers me and mine in my vehicle. I am legally allowed to use deadly force, if deemed necessary, with little to no retribution to me. Okay, the dead punks family may file lawsuit upon lawsuit against me, and it might wreck me financially, but you know what? I wouldnt care. I would have quite possibly saved the lives of my family, and possibly others also, as the dead punk, is not around to perpetrate further crimes against others.
CCW also allows me to defend others, while out and about, or to at least scale down any violent confrontation that is ongoing, and if required, then to dispatch a volley of lead towards any of the afore mentioned lowlifes, who are hell bent on causing harm to others.

Here is how screwed up things are at home in the UK. I dont remember the case specifically, however it pertained to a burglar breaking into someones house. The burglar fell over some sort of furniture, and ended up breaking his leg. He SUED the homeowner, and WON! What kind of messed up crap is that. The thug was in the house illegally. If the homeowner had been home, or caught the thug red handed, and the thug came after the homeowner, and the homeowner had defended themselves, the burglar would have sued the homeowner and in all probability, would have won the court case. So poor Johnny homeowner, gets screwed twice. Once because whatever the thug had stolen, would be classed as evidence, and he may/may not get his property back. and secondly, the thug could sue him, and get away with it. And if it was the thugs first offence, probably would get a slap on the wrist, told naughty boy, dont do it again, and sent on his way with a song in his heart and a smile on his face.

Castle doctrine takes care of that issue.

So in closing, do I belive that guns have a place in law abiding society? Your damn right. In a lot of states, you have to go through state required training, and a background check, before being issued a CCW permit. If they could transpose that methodology to the UK, and follow the same rules, then crime would plummet, because thugs on the street would not know who was carrying, and who wasnt. It would be pot luck, if they pull a knife, or a gun on someone, that they wouldnt end up with a half pound of lead in them.

reply to post by brainwrek


Like you Americans who bow to Obama.

[edit on 3-2-2010 by kindred]

reply to post by The time lord


Some Americans who carry guns have the intelligence of a chimpanzee, which is the reason I'm glad I live in the UK. You can keep your guns.

Crime Statistics. US has more homicides than the UK.

www.nationmaster.com...

www.angelfire.com...

All of Europe combined has a lower homicide rate than the US.
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 3-2-2010 by kindred]

Self-Defense News from the past week.

Man fends off 4 attacking him with bat (using his evil gun)

Store owner fends off 3 robbers

Homeowner shoots burglar

Armed woman saves relatives from home invasion

Disabled senior shoots home invader

There's more. Lots and lots more. National media always seems to miss these stories. Some kid gets shot in the face because her drunk loser father left a loaded gun on the floor and people across the globe hear about it. Some old man saves his life with a gun and it's buried and forgotten.

Originally posted by kindred
reply to post by The time lord

 

Some Americans who carry guns have the intelligence of a chimpanzee, which is the reason I'm glad I live in the UK. You can keep your guns.

Crime Statistics. US has more homicides than the UK.

www.nationmaster.com...

www.angelfire.com...

All of Europe combined has a lower homicide rate than the US.
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 3-2-2010 by kindred]

I never denied America has a higher homicide rate.

Like I said, we play for keeps. We dont let the criminal element have another chance at hurting/stealing from us. Once they know you are easy pickings, they come back for more. We dont play that game.

We STOP the crime from happening, hence the LOWER CRIME rates.

I am very glad Great Britain has gun control, I have lived there for several years, it is a beautiful country. I personally prefer to have the safety of me and mine in our own hands, and also know if things get really bad, an armed response is available, especially as it takes 30 minutes or more to get any kind of police response.

Casing