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Originally posted by bsbray11
It figures you would deflect from the real question.
Originally posted by Skyfloating
This is getting pretty confusing for me folks, thats why I havent been responding. This thread is forcing me to go out and do some research - something I had hoped I could avoid
Meanwhile, is there anyone around who is expert in both sides of the argument?
Originally posted by impressme
*Fact*, FBI hid over five hundred eyewitness account, of being in the explosions, seeing, and hearing explosions at the WTC.
Originally posted by Joey Canoli
And that's where opinions of 9/11 will diverge.
REAL experts poo-poo EVERY CT theory, claim, etc ever made.
IF one chooses to take the conspiracy angle on it, then you will say that they are lying, or could be wrong, or something similar.
Unfortunately the investigooglers (9/11 truthers) believe themselves to be the intellectual equal of all these demonstrated experts. Or, they believe some folks with dubious experience at best that something is wrong about the "os".
Originally posted by ImAPepper
Opinions mean nothing when it comes to science.
You counted the names of the authors.
How many engineers did it take to peer review these papers ?
How many people attended these conferences?
You seem to have a thing for Griff and his opinion. IIFC, Griff wanted to take his name off A&E for Gage being deceptive. I also recall Griff stating that the NIST report on 1 & 2 was possible to have happened the way explained in their report.
Originally posted by Joey Canoli
Originally posted by bsbray11
It figures you would deflect from the real question.
there's no deflection at all.
There's some real truth to be learned from my point.
Either you or the guys you want to cite are perfect examples of the DunningKrueger Effect. They know very little, but think they are experts. And you exhibit the same symptoms. There is no rational denial of this fact.
Especially when one combs through some of the comments they've put in their statements about 9/11.
Just from memory, here's a couple of real doozies:
Your prime example of a fine engineer - Charles Pegelow - believes that pineapple nukes were used.
Another says that the towers collapsed from the bottom.
And IIRC, several say that 1 and 2 fell at free fall speed.
Originally posted by Skyfloating
Meanwhile, is there anyone around who is expert in both sides of the argument?
As I understand it, your own theory is also some sort of middle-line between the OS and the CT.
Any person who is able to argue both sides, might be more unbiased in his reports.
*Fact*, FBI hid over five hundred eyewitness account, of being in the explosions, seeing, and hearing explosions at the WTC.
Whats this all about? Do you have more on this?
Eyewitness Accounts
Eyewitnesses Recalled Explosions, No Alarms or Sprinklers
The collapses of the Twin Towers were witnessed firsthand by scores of people, most of them emergency responders. The majority of those accounts have been suppressed by the state for years. In August of 2005, the New York Times published the single largest and most authoritative body of eyewitness evidence yet assembled, as a result of winning a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. 1 Another body of evidence, which we have yet to examine, is a set of recordings of calls processed by the 911 system on the day of 9/11/01 and released in 2006. 2
Originally posted by Skyfloating
Originally posted by Joey Canoli
And that's where opinions of 9/11 will diverge.
REAL experts poo-poo EVERY CT theory, claim, etc ever made.
IF one chooses to take the conspiracy angle on it, then you will say that they are lying, or could be wrong, or something similar.
Unfortunately the investigooglers (9/11 truthers) believe themselves to be the intellectual equal of all these demonstrated experts. Or, they believe some folks with dubious experience at best that something is wrong about the "os".
In my OP I asked not to waste time wronging the other side.
Instead of doing so, let me ask you what you think about some of the claims made by CTers here, such as the Demolition of WTC7?
Originally posted by bsbray11
I could say the exact same thing to you and it would be perfectly true.
But the bottom line is you are still outnumbered
when it comes to expert opinions and if you want to keep referencing the experts as if they're all on your side, you are lying.
And the fact that so many professionals ARE outspoken against the official story should tell you SOMETHING
Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
I would consider YOU somewhat knowledgable of both sides. As I understand it, your own theory is also some sort of middle-line between the OS and the CT.
Any person who is able to argue both sides, might be more unbiased in his reports.
[edit on 26-12-2009 by Skyfloating]
[color=#FFFF00]Original Quote by SKL :
With being who I am, I have the unique ability to see all angles, the unique ability to see into the heart of a conflict, and see exactly where the truth lies.
Usually, in any conflict, truth is the first casualty, the first to die, the last to be salvaged from the rubble of the conflict, and never to be buried because it is dragged about like a crude and barbaric trophy like the head of a dead king carried on a pike for all to see.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Originally posted by bsbray11
Depending on how deeply technical you want to go, you will find there are many different "official stories"
and many different "conspiracy theories
Originally posted by Joey Canoli
Real experts - those that actually design buildings and have demonstrated their professionalism by *doing* that thing - say the same thing.
Truthers believe the non-experts.
There's no list of experts that say that the moon landings were true. Or the earth is round. Or there is no Bigfoot.
What experts in AE are you talking about? Please provide their c.v. Please cite their papers. They don't even need to be published in a respectable journal.
Richard Gage, AIA, is a San Francisco Bay Area architect and a member of the American Institute of Architects. He is the founding member of AE911Truth. He has been a practicing architect for over 20 years and has worked on most types of building construction, including numerous fire-proofed steel-framed buildings. Most recently he worked on the construction documents for a $400M mixed-use urban project with 1.2 million square feet of retail, parking structure, and 320,000 square feet of mid-rise office space—altogether about with 1,200 tons of steel framing.
• Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, and others
• Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials
By Kevin R. Ryan, James R. Gourley, & Steven E. Jones
• Mysteries of the Twin Towers
R. Herbst
• The Missing Jolt: A Simple Refutation of the NIST-Bazant Collapse Hypothesis
By Prof. Graeme MacQueen and Tony Szamboti
• Scientists, Scholars, Architects & Engineers respond to NIST
By 16 scientists, scholars, architects, and engineers
• Public comments on the NIST WTC 7 draft report. Submitted to NIST 09/11/08.
Jonathan Cole P.E.
• WTC 7: A Short Computation
Prof. Kenneth L. Kuttler
• Journal of Engineering Mechanics:
Discussion of "Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis" by K.A. Seffen
Dr. Crockett Grabbe
• Momentum Transfer Analysis of the Collapse of the Upper Stories of WTC 1
Gordon Ross Journal of 9/11 Studies
• Direct Evidence for Explosions: Flying Projectiles and Widespread Impact Damage
Dr. Crockett Grabbe
• Lies about the WTC by NIST and Underwriters Laboratories
Kevin Ryan - U.L. whistleblower - former Site Manager
985 architectural and engineering professionals and 5900 other supporters including A&E students have signed the petition demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation.
Yes, they are victims of their own arrogance, and suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Originally posted by Joey Canoli
Originally posted by bsbray11
Depending on how deeply technical you want to go, you will find there are many different "official stories"
False. There were some different thoughts on what may have happened by people 'out of the loop'. There's virtually zero disagreement now.
arrogant
Someone who is arrogant behaves in a proud, unpleasant way towards other people because they believe that they are more important than others.
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
I'm not a metallurgist and I wasn't there to see what "melted steel" actually is so I can't say, but if you're asking me to speculate, then I'd say it was due to prolonged exposure to the underground fires that were documented to have been burning for months after the collapse.
Engineer Society Accused of Cover-Ups
By CAIN BURDEAU
Associated Press Writer
The professional organization for engineers who build the nation's roads, dams and bridges has been accused by fellow engineers of covering up catastrophic design flaws while investigating national disasters.
After the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center and the levee failures caused by Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the federal government paid the American Society of Civil Engineers to investigate what went wrong.
Critics now accuse the group of covering up engineering mistakes, downplaying the need to alter building standards, and using the investigations to protect engineers and government agencies from lawsuits.
Similar accusations arose after both disasters, but the most recent allegations have pressured the organization to convene an independent panel to investigate.
"They want to make sure that they do things the right way and that they learn lessons from the studies they do," said Sherwood Boelhert, a retired Republican congressman from New York who heads the panel. He led the House Science Committee for six years.
The panel is expected to issue a report by the end of April and may recommend that the society stop taking money from government agencies for disaster investigations.
The engineering group says it takes the allegations seriously, but it has declined to comment until completion of the panel's report and an internal ethics review.
In the World Trade Center case, critics contend the engineering society wrongly concluded skyscrapers cannot withstand getting hit by airplanes. In the hurricane investigation, it was accused of suggesting that the power of the storm was as big a problem as the poorly designed levees.
...
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, a structural engineer and forensics expert, contends his computer simulations disprove the society's findings that skyscrapers could not be designed to withstand the impact of a jetliner.
Astaneh-Asl, who received money from the National Science Foundation to investigate the collapse, insisted most New York skyscrapers built with traditional designs would survive such an impact and prevent the kind of fires that brought down the twin towers.
He also questioned the makeup of the society's investigation team. On the team were the wife of the trade center's structural engineer and a representative of the buildings' original design team.
"I call this moral corruption," said Astaneh-Asl, who is on the faculty at the University of California, Berkeley.