Urban Combat The Petraeus Way

Originally posted by bsbray11
You know if they start calling people "insurgents" people are actually going to start acting more like them.

I don't particularly like where this is going.

What's not to like?

Personally I think if you're somebody like a street-thug/gangbanger, robbing a 7-11 or dealing coc aine in close proximity to a school, etc?

You SHOULD be labeled an insurgent.

To me, an insurgent is just another word for hardcore criminal.

Originally posted by Marked One
Okay. Take the following situation into consideration.

Me and a coworker were pulling security for an apartment complex as courtesy officers. We took it upon ourselves to begin stopping vehicles and talking to the occupants of said vehicles, asking for them to show ID, and state their business for being on the property. We only did this with people who didn't live in the apartments or if they were just somebody we did not recognize off the bat.

The apartment complex happened to be a hot-bed for peddling of illegal narcotics as well as other various acts of an illegal/devious nature.

At a certain point in time the local police department showed up and questioned me and my coworker about 1) complaints against both of us in regards to impersonating police officers (at the time we weren't police, we were private security contractors) , 2) illegal searches, as well as 3) other civil-rights violations.

I found that kinda 'strange' because the local police did those things (illegal searches, civil-rights violations) all the time! Yet they had the nerve to come out and harass us about it.

And I had never had a single police officer give me problems like that until that very day. But local PD doesn't like security officers, however the local sheriff's dept does.

(At one point we stopped a vehicle which had a passenger with a warrant for their arrest, the charge was for a hit & run. That person was let go because the police didn't want to go through all the trouble of extraditing said person back to the county they were from.)

Long story short. Me and my coworker decided that police had to have been out there at the apartments for a good reason other than civil-rights violations. And we felt that it was because someone within said police dept was involved in the drug trade taking place within those apartments. And so therefore police were out there running a protection racket behind the scenes. And they came out there to distract me and my colleague while the drug dealers did their business and left w/o getting caught.

The job of a uniformed security guard is to "observe and report", not to get involved... its not your job to arrest drug dealers or enforce the law because, quite simply, guards are not trained or authorized to do so... which is probably why you drew the attention of the local sworn who have a DUTY to perform. Part of that duty is to protect people from over zealous security.

I used ran across many guards who were eager and well meaning, but just didn't understand their role and it got them arrested or seriously hurt. The best thing a guard can do if they want to "help"; If you observe a drug deal / other crime, take copious mental notes and report it..

As far a general whatever, he's a war fighter not a police officer.. he should stick to what he knows best; killing people in illegal wars. There is already an "us versus them" atmosphere between the populace and gendarme.. treating people like insurgents would further fracture and already tenuous relationship.

If you are in law enforcement that you should already know how fast a bar full of happy go lucky bar stool urchins will turn into an angry mob ready to take out their frustrations on you... As it is they dont see you checking for adulterated liquor as protecting them from getting ripped off or sick.. you're harassing their friend joe the bartender... start assuming most everyone is an insurgent rather than a law abiding innocent citizen.. and the police will be even more of an occupation force than they already are.

Since general disaster isn't a cop, he's not remotely aware of just how ####ed up the system is.. it's a freak'n mess that needs to be overhauled completely. Start with ending the war on plants (drugs) in its current form; its a failure that puts non violent people behind bars. Tuning up the police to be military like, is looking in the wrong direction.

..and btw, non felony out of county warrants are generally a waste of time. And agency rivalries will never go away.. around here the the LA Sheriffs (about 9,000) seriously clown LAPD (about 8,000) aka "LA pee-wee" or "rapid la-pid".. mocking their primadonna attitudes despite having stupid low hiring standards / ridiculously slow response times. Not only that LAPD & CHP ( cant handle police work) are notorious for not extending professional courtesy and seriously disliked in some circles... it is what it is.

Originally posted by Marked One
What's not to like?

Personally I think if you're somebody like a street-thug/gangbanger, robbing a 7-11 or dealing coc aine in close proximity to a school, etc?

You SHOULD be labeled an insurgent.

To me, an insurgent is just another word for hardcore criminal.

Cocaine used to be legal and guess what -- no street thugs selling it at all. No illegal weapons being wielded by coke dealers, no huge black market economies of trillions of dollars, NONE of that. It is a DIRECT result of making it illegal, just like making alcohol illegal led to insane amounts of gang activity, Al Capone and the St. Valentine's Day Massacre and all of that, that led to prohibition's quick repeal. We were lucky that coke wasn't as popular as alcohol, and that potheads are too stoned to care.

Yeah, start doing that, and then see who the street thugs and crack dealers start attacking. It won't just be each other any more. One good thing that will come of it will be that black-on-black crime will drop significantly, I can predict that much. Well, except that black people also serve as police and military...

You will see more police and military shot down in cold blood on the streets. Total guerrilla warfare. If you bring it to them, that's what both sides will get. Drug war in Mexico is a good modern example. They don't mess around, they've killed the president's advisors and family members. Why? Because Mexico has tried bringing a real war to them. So that's exactly what both parties got. One side escalates, so does the other. Equal and opposite reactions. It's almost physics.

Like Vietnam, you can walk past the enemy on the street and have no idea he's going to be the one to kill you an hour later. But in many cases -- he will.


But if that's what you want, if you want to support this mentality, go ahead, and see where it takes you.

Remember that people will reflect the way you treat them back at YOU.

[edit on 20-12-2009 by bsbray11]

Here's my 8 point plan for dealing with 4 star psychotics
1 - strip off their stars
2 - refer said officer to mental health counseling for egomaniacal delusional behaviors
3 - follow up with appropriate drug treatment and/or incarceration

Whoops! only 3 points, my bad.



[edit on 20-12-2009 by Asktheanimals]

Originally posted by GovtFlu
The job of a uniformed security guard is to "observe and report", not to get involved... its not your job to arrest drug dealers or enforce the law because, quite simply, guards are not trained or authorized to do so... which is probably why you drew the attention of the local sworn who have a DUTY to perform. Part of that duty is to protect people from over zealous security.

The basic foundation of a uniformed security guard's duty is observe and report. True. However in some instances, said officer can go somewhat beyond that particular scope of their capacity and be a little more 'hands-on' or 'pro-active' in their function as a uniformed public servant. (In Texas. A security guard/officer is considered a uniformed public servant. If somebody puts their hands on one of us? They get charged with felony assault.) Provided that they have the necessary training or are under the direction of an officer with said necessary training. And provided that they are going about their duties according to client's orders.

At one apartment complex we were contracted to. The apartment management delegated their authority to us. And we had the authorization to go into any particular person's apartment (w/o a search warrant from police), provided that a) we knew for sure there was something illegal taking place inside the apartment that was detrimental to standards set forth by the community. OR b) someone inside said apartment was in danger (ie: dude beating his woman,, or someone with medical issues was passed out inside the apartment and paramedics needed to get to them.)

Now when it comes down to entering a person's apartment for something illegal that was taking place. (ie: somebody was tampering with or breaking into vehicles, and that person sought refuge and was let in to somebody's apartment.) It's not like we can just go up and kick down the door and go in like it was nothing. That's not how it works. First we knock on the door. Somebody answers the door. We say "Security Officer" or "Courtesy Officer" and "we need to go inside your apartment". Person who answers the door were to say "F*** off! You have no business in my apartment." It wouldn't matter because according to the lease they signed, any member of the apartment complex staff can enter their apartment for whatever reason deemed necessary.

AND in some instances. Illegal activity taking place on a property can be overlooked if the client instructs us to do so.

We were contracted to a strip-club. In the parking lot of said strip club there were people who dealt marijuana. The strip-club owner didn't have a problem with marijuana. (In fact some of the staff of said strip-club would hang around out back after closing time and have some.) We had orders from the club-management to allow the dealing of marijuana (or just about any other type of narcotic as long as we didn't see it) to take place, provided they weren't actually CONSUMING said narcotic in the parking lot in plain view of everyone.

Originally posted by Ausar
you say it would make your job easier;
you wouldn't be doing the same thing you do now.?

you fail to realize that the attacks you mentioned were the cause of malfeasance on the part of the officiating contracted citizens (LEO's as you put it). i think you got lost somewhere and forgot what being a LEO is all about.

Actually I would be doing just about the same thing I do now. However if something were to happen up in congress, say involving the legalization of marijuana? I won't have to worry about busting people for marijuana possession. And instead, focus my attention on something more important.

If we would do a better job at curtailing illegal immigrants? I wouldn't have to waste my time brushing up on my Spanish. (Not that I mind. I am a linguist. I know multiple languages.) But not everyone you come across who works in this business is going to have the patience to learn another language. Now I did have a criminal justice professor who said if it were up to him? He'd make it a requirement for every police officer to be fluent in Spanish. I agree with this notion and at the same time I don't. Reason why I don't agree is that native language of America is English and if someone doesn't speak it they probably shouldn't be here in the first place. However I agree because we got a lot of Spanish Speakers in the United States. And one of the main points of counterinsurgency is having a substantial knowledge in language and culture. So having more Spanish-speaking uniformed public servants is a plus.

But majority of the time you deal with foreigners. Chances are they may not be legal citizens. And that's another thing that needs attention. Illegal immigration. I'll talk more about that in a later post.

Also. If we had more law-abiding citizens out there with concealed handgun permits. Combined with more restrictions lifted off of firearms possession and purchasing. That would make my job easier as well. Places where there is less gun-control is a place with a significantly lower crime-rate. Not to mention if they wouldn't make it illegal for me to carry more than ONE handgun on my person. I feel that cops, and security officers, and any other armed public servant should be allowed to carry a second firearm (concealed) on their person where it can be reached with the left hand. So that way if a) their shooting hand gets injured, they can easily reach for their concealed firearm with their left hand. b) if a perp managed to take their primary firearm away, officer still has their concealed back up to shoot said perp before they can cause any further harm to anybody around them. But it's illegal for an armed uniformed public servant to carry more than one firearm. And it's illegal for said public servant to NOT carry it out in the open.

Also I'd like for whoever gets voted as the next President in the 2012 presidential election to appoint Arizona Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio as attorney general. Or if not have him appointed as director of dept of homeland security.

Originally posted by GovtFlu

Since general disaster isn't a cop, he's not remotely aware of just how ####ed up the system is.. it's a freak'n mess that needs to be overhauled completely. Start with ending the war on plants (drugs) in its current form; its a failure that puts non violent people behind bars. Tuning up the police to be military like, is looking in the wrong direction.

You do understand that a police force is a 'paramilitary' force. Correct? Any way you slice it. Doesn't matter. Food for thought.

(BTW: Sorry for the double post.)

[edit on 12/20/09 by Marked One]

[edit on 12/20/09 by Marked One]

[edit on 12/20/09 by Marked One]

Originally posted by Marked One

Originally posted by GovtFlu
The job of a uniformed security guard is to "observe and report", not to get involved... its not your job to arrest drug dealers or enforce the law because, quite simply, guards are not trained or authorized to do so... which is probably why you drew the attention of the local sworn who have a DUTY to perform. Part of that duty is to protect people from over zealous security.

The basic foundation of a uniformed security guard's duty is observe and report. True. However in some instances, said officer can go somewhat beyond that particular scope of their capacity and be a little more 'hands-on' or 'pro-active' in their function as a uniformed public servant. (In Texas. A security guard/officer is considered a uniformed public servant. If somebody puts their hands on one of us? They get charged with felony assault.) Provided that they have the necessary training or are under the direction of an officer with said necessary training. And provided that they are going about their duties according to client's orders.

((snip))

So you understand that you are biased, hired to guard someones private interests.. by perhaps presenting the color of authority and the ability to notify the police... as a deterrent type of thing... not to enforce all laws.

If your paycheck issuer advises you to ignore certain minor chicken-spackle non violent crimes, you do so... if I liked getting paid I would too. While I agree enforcing laws re: weed is a waste of time for police or anyone, unfortunately the misguided local .gov wouldn't see over looking what they consider heinous crime as serving the public good, or acting as a good public servant.. at least I don't imagine they would.

If you want to do "hands on" security, go for it, just remember sworn officers usually enjoy a specific bill of rights (in Calif it's AB301 rights) that non sworn do not.

Frankly, I don't see how general dick tracys' opinion would affect how private security operates since you're not crime fighters.. more like private crime deterrents.

Police Officers Bill of Rights
CALIFORNIA CODES GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 3300-3311
www.slopoa.com...

Originally posted by GovtFlu[/i
Frankly, I don't see how general dick tracys' opinion would affect how private security operates since you're not crime fighters.. more like private crime deterrents.

Oh? What's that? We're NOT crime fighters? If a security officer happens to be in a convenience store buying fuel, snacks or a drink, cigarettes or a scratch-off lottery ticket, etc on their way to or from work or something of that nature and a masked gunman happens to walk inside the store and try to rob it? Guess what--as an armed security officer YOU have the right to draw your side-arm and open fire upon the gunman and potentially kill him/her. No questions asked.

Something similar happened to me. One night I was returning to my post (at an apartment complex) after I ducked out briefly to refuel my vehicle. On my way driving back I happened to come across a scene of an accident involving a vehicle that crashed into someone's fence, plowing it's way into their back yard, causing extensive amounts of damage to that person's property. The people that emerged from the house looked pretty pissed off. The guy in the SUV that crashed (who was with two other guys) was trying to get away. He almost did if it weren't for the fact that I just happened to be passing through. I immediately stopped and dismounted from my vehicle. I walked over to where one of the people from inside the house was standing, identified myself, and they asked for my help. I said "No problem. I can detain the driver and keep them there until police arrived." While the police were called and were on their way to the scene, I took it upon myself to extract the driver of the SUV and handcuff him. The other two guys got scared and ran off down the street (turns out they happened to live less than two blocks away). Police got there within a matter of minutes and arrested the guy for driving under the influence of alcohol, private property damage, and I don't know what else. Before the police took the guy in they kindly put their handcuffs on the guy and took mine off him and handed them back to me. (BTW: The guy was fat with stubby arms like that of a tyrannosaurus rex. lol. So it took two pairs of handcuffs to restrain the guy without injuring his arms and wrists.) After everything was said and done the people from the house thanked me and one of the police officers I talked to about the incident shook my hand and said "stay safe, brother" right before I left.