strange LRO moon picture near marius crater

reply to post by ArMaP

If you made this thread just to discuss the photo then great, but I hope you didn't made it just to try to attract what you call debunkers and sceptics. So, please stop making those posts asking for this to be debunked, it looks like you are only trolling for the points or stars or whatever.

policaly correctly.
Sorry, norway spiral threads make me hungry.
Really shame.
Where were ATS moderators and administrators ?
I see only one extreme T&C.
What's your goals ?
I see a"war on ATS" by Dungeon & Dragon teams.
hundred of trolling posts.

Sorry, what is the problem about attracting debunkers and sceptic ?
Some do really good job.

Professional debunkers will not give me an answer in 5 minutes.
they will take their time to performs analysis. time is not the matter.
They don't need me in anyway.
This picture is on LRO website since more than two months.
The up part of the whole picture was already discuss.

S&F
to do what ?
If I want S&F, I just have to repost the pictures here or somewhere else ?
Change the title to
"Alien Moon base discovered"
or
"Missile attack on the moon"
or
"Stealths bombers on the moon"
bla bla bla

because I don't see alien base, missile attack or stealth bomber.

but I see a really amazing image of a "crater".
I'm still waiting to see another crater picture like that.
I'm just curious.
Did this crater have just a name ?

Thank for your hexagone.
I was waiting for it since my first post.
Do you notice the big Delta ?

title is more important than the content


First, I'm not a moon picture analist, so I need help.
And for the moment, I don't have help.

I'm new on ATS. just 2 threads.
Sure I read it since few years now.
but it's not the same thing to be a poster.

mirror: let me guess. a right left mirror. not up/down
no north: let me guess. the north is down.

pure feeling ?
yes and no. tunnel entrance is on the east.

you are right
yes I'm trolling.
yes I used this thread like a log.
but I don't spend my time poluting others threads with off topic stuff.

I will edit my precedent post for cleaning.

Now I'm leaving to another place.
Just reading.
No fears No deceptions.

OP place is free.
Or just repost another picture with a good and stunning title.

Time will tell about this picture.
P.S: which software do you use to open LRO tiff files ?


OK I can't edit these old posts.



[edit on 19-12-2009 by mixmix]

reply to post by mixmix

First let me say that what I said before was because I think that it's a waste of time making threads/posts just to create wars instead of discussions. Maybe I have seen too much of those threads lately and I am affected by that a little more, and as I have a hard time understanding what you mean in your posts I don't really understand what are your intentions.

Back on topic, I think we have to wait until February for those images to be posted on the Planetary Data System sites, along with all the data (usually in just one IMG file), I have to look for other sources to see if I can find some or all of that data.

I use Photoshop to open those large 16 bits per pixel TIFFs.

The OP image is simply the way a crater looks when the Sun is close to straight overhead. For example, here are three images of West Crater in the Sea of Tranquility with a low, medium and high sun angle:


(Resolution is ~1m/pixel)


(Resolution is

reply to post by Saint Exupery

The OP image is simply the way a crater looks when the Sun is close to straight overhead

good explanation.
Sun angle is very important.

Can you provide links to your images or source, please ?

The 3rd image is really looking like the one of this thread.
Thank you

I notice also that the 3rd picture look flat cause of sun angle.
So it's more difficult to see 3D, altitude shape.

With another sun angle like on the JAXA KAGUYA it's more easy to see mountains and craters



the same place but in the other way with a different sun angle




It's seems that the north is down due to discussion in
LRO image of Crystal Towers!?
to check

Originally posted by mixmix
reply to post by Saint Exupery

 

The OP image is simply the way a crater looks when the Sun is close to straight overhead

good explanation.
Sun angle is very important.

Can you provide links to your images or source, please ?

Certainly! All three were cropped from press-release photos of the Apollo 11 landing site:

Low sun angle. 07.17.09

Medium sun angle. 10.1.09

High sun angle. 11.09.09

Of course, these in turn were cropped from much, much larger .tif images:

Low sun angle.

Medium sun angle.

High sun angle.

The 3rd image is really looking like the one of this thread.
Thank you

I notice also that the 3rd picture look flat cause of sun angle.
So it's more difficult to see 3D, altitude shape.

Very true. Here are two more images to compare:

Low-Sun View of Oceanus Procellarum

High-Sun View of Oceanus Procellarum

(Note: In all of these images, North is "up".)

With another sun angle like on the JAXA KAGUYA it's more easy to see mountains and craters

Yes. Low sun angles are better at revealing subtle changes in terrain. High sun angles are better for finding differences in contrast of the soil & rocks. For example, the disturbed soil caused by the astronauts' walking and working is much more easily seen in the high-sun images. So are the light ejecta "rays" from the fresher craters.

Another great source for photos where you can see this effect is at Arizona State University's Apollo Image Archive. This site has over 7,000 high-quality scans of images from the Apollo Metric (Mapping) Camera. Many areas of the Moon were imaged repeatedly, at different times of day. Average resolution is 5-10m/pixel. Enjoy!

[edit on 20-12-2009 by Saint Exupery]

reply to post by Saint Exupery


thank you for your links.
I'll take a look.

I noticed that West crater is 500 m West of apollo 11 landing site.

Old image of the area



I like the triangle in the West Crater.

but it's not here anymore in LRO due to resolution improvement.

look the inside of the "little west crater", 20 m from landing site

here the log of communication of apollo 11 landing
NASA log

extract:
111:04:37 Aldrin: That BB likes the outside. It won't go on the inside. (Pause)
111:04:48 Armstrong: That little cup is convex now, instead of concave.

Picture of the little west crater from apollo 11 team


ATS thread on LRO apollo 11
One Giant Leap - Seen Again

Thank again
P.S: the jaxa selene data is down since the 12/18/2009

little west crater image from google moon apollo 11 panorama view

[edit on 20-12-2009 by mixmix]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by mixmix]

[edit on 20-12-2009 by mixmix]

sorry for this new post but

your 3 links for a apollo 11 land site are down

wms.lroc.asu.edu... is down

it's also the one of this picture thread !!!!

www.soac.selene.isas.jaxa.jp... is down

but KAYUGA 3D GIS is working
wms.selene.jaxa.jp...

[edit on 20-12-2009 by mixmix]

Originally posted by mixmix
sorry for this new post but

your 3 links for a apollo 11 land site are down

That's odd. The links work for me. Try cutting and pasting the links:

[iOriginally posted by Saint Exupery

www.nasa.gov...
Low sun angle. 07.17.09

www.nasa.gov...
Medium sun angle. 10.1.09

www.nasa.gov...
High sun angle. 11.09.09

Of course, these in turn were cropped from much, much larger .tif images:

wms.lroc.asu.edu...
Low sun angle.

wms.lroc.asu.edu...
Medium sun angle.

wms.lroc.asu.edu...
High sun angle.

Originally posted by mixmix
wms.lroc.asu.edu... is down[/url]

When I clicked on your link, it wanted to save a file to my computer. Is that normal?

BTW, I loved the Little West panorama. Little West is visible in the 16mm film footage of the landing. Here is an extremely cool composite video that René and Jonathan Cantin made that puts the film together with the same Lunar Orbiter photo that you referenced. It is a 10MB .wmv clip, available from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. Little West is visible at ~2:25.

links are working again.
LRO and JAXA KAYUGA data sites are up.

I will check if JAXA is running.
From JAXA SELENE Data page:

2009/12/20 Public user log in cannot be done due to the hardware trouble in part now. Please wait even for restoration.

When I clicked on your link, it wanted to save a file to my computer. Is that normal?

which link ?



[edit on 20-12-2009 by mixmix]

reply to post by mixmix


which link ?

wms.lroc.asu.edu...

reply to post by Saint Exupery

which link ? wms.lroc.asu.edu...

I don't see a save file to computer except for KAYUGA 3D who need 2 java applet.

???

It takes me 30 minutes just to found the apollo 11 land sites on the 3 NRO pictures.

Amazing how sun angle can change the sighting.
Like there's 2 moons:
one is flat, the second one have relief.
It's also visible on the 2 JAXA video I post before.
Moon seems very flat with only holes.

From LRO sites, it seems camera have 2 native modes
1.17m/Pixel
or
0.51m/Pixel
or there is 2 cameras.
or 2 native modes
Don't know

So LRO map browser site is down again
I means no map browser available.
wms.lroc.asu.edu is down or unreachable for me
Error loading: wms.lroc.asu.edu.../ser/estore/lroc/web/pr/ptif/M104362199.tif
Lot of snow this weekend

The tif files are still available.

Can somebody say me which application ( and version) I need to open a tif files ?

Photshop which version
Gimp 16 bits to 8 bits give a back image
other ones gives errors







[edit on 21-12-2009 by mixmix]

Originally posted by mixmix

Amazing how sun angle can change the sighting.
Like there's 2 moons:
one is flat, the second one have relief.
It's also visible on the 2 JAXA video I post before.
Moon seems very flat with only holes.

It is amazing, I agree. I see the same thing in my telescopes. I like looking at the moon when it is crescent-to-half full, because the shadows really make the craters and mountains spectacular. Looking at the full-moon is boring, to me, because although the crater rays show up brightly, everything looks flat.

From LRO sites, it seems camera have 2 native modes
1.17m/Pixel
or
0.51m/Pixel
or there is 2 cameras.
or 2 native modes
Don't know

LRO has two 195mm Narrow Angle Cameras that have the same resolution. The first two images I linked were taken shortly after LRO arrived at the Moon and thus was in a higher orbit. This gave a resolution of ~1m/pixel. This fall, the LRO descended to a lower "mapping orbit". At low altitude, it gets better resolution (~0.5m/pixel).
LRO also has a Wide-Angle Camera that can map much larger areas, but at a lower resolution. The WAC also has ultraviolet filters to bring out different details.

Can somebody say me which application ( and version) I need to open a tif files ?

Most of the image software I've seen can. The nice thing about .tif is that you don't get the compression errors that you see when you save something as a .jpg.
The links that I gave you should open the images with a "Zoomify" interface that allows you to click on the image to zoom in, and drag-click to move around. The images at the Apollo Image Archive use the same feature.

reply to post by Saint Exupery

Most of the image software I've seen can. The nice thing about .tif is that you don't get the compression errors that you see when you save something as a .jpg. The links that I gave you should open the images with a "Zoomify" interface that allows you to click on the image to zoom in, and drag-click to move around. The images at the Apollo Image Archive use the same feature.

Me I still have problem to open the tif files.
Here is my result with gimp. The image is black and left/right inverted.
The Zoomify is great but there're some problem these days with the server
And you need to be online.


Some interestings links I found

NASA apollo 11 land site maps


Tranquility Base, 40 years on
artist view of Little West Crater

Other facts:
Eagle stay 21H36 on the moon
EVA time 2H31

I don't found too much information about little west crater.
Did the bigs rocks inside are the remains of the crust,
the remains of a meteorit ???
the remains of the crust ejected from another crater impact ?
Little west and west crater are in fact in the east of landing site !!!

Perhap's full moon is boring with telescope but not with LRO.

These rocks reflect really better light than dust.

the lro zoomify server is still down

500 internal internal error Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error. More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

but JAXA KAYUGA seems to work fine.

and this thread is not anymore available through ATS search ???

I've to go on google to find it.

[edit on 22-12-2009 by mixmix]

a small post to say that

lro zoomify maps are available again since 24H.

this thread is not accessible through ATS search engine !!!

2 lines
Thanks.
This thread is available with ATS search.

crater near apollo 14 landing site



shadows on anaxagoras


H = L x sqrt(1 - cos²a) / cos a


[edit on 27-12-2009 by mixmix]

Originally posted by mixmix
H = L x sqrt(1 - cos²a) / cos a

And what do you mean by that?

reply to post by ArMaP

Originally posted by mixmix H = L x sqrt(1 - cos²a) / cos a And what do you mean by that?

L : length of shadow
H: height of the rock
a: sun angle
h: hypothenus.

in a flat word, it's an aproximation.

squared triangle: h² = H² + L².
L = h cos a.

L = sizeInPixel x resolution.

Sorry, there more easy formula
H = h sin a

H = L tan a

sorry

can you confirm arMap this simple approximation who give the heigth of a rock from the length of his shadow.
I don't found the thread who deal with shadow length.

Example:
shadow: 200 pixels x 1.85 m/pixels => 370 m
if a = 20° => tan a = 0.37 =>H = 134.6 m
if a = 15° => tan a = 0.27 =>H = 99.1 m
if a = 10° => tan a = 0.17 =>H = 65.5 m

There's already a thread for this on ATS.

I know that crater can give a triangular shadow.

but a rock is not a crater.

What causes these formations on the Moon?

JPL Horizon give:
Start time : A.D. 2009-Jun-30 16:04:00.0000 UT
Date__(UT)__HR:MN:SC.fff Solar-lon Solar-lat SN.ang SN.dist
2009-Jun-30 16:04:00.000 82.55568 0.58733 290.74 893.35

But how to calculate sun angle on the moon ?



[edit on 28-12-2009 by mixmix]

reply to post by mixmix


I think it's right, except for sun angles of 0º and 90º, in which the shadow is infinite and zero, respectively.

And you can only know the sun angle if you have a shadow of an object for which you know the height or if the information is given, that's usually part of the associated data.

And yes, unfortunately it only works on flat, horizontal surfaces.

Edit: I can try to find the sun angle for LROC images, just say which one do you want.

[edit on 28/12/2009 by ArMaP]