Are we getting what we deserve?

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
Benjamin Franklin


We can directly and easily trace a big step in giving up liberty to the Patriot Act in the US, but the roots origins are much longer and deeper.

Like the proverbial frog in the slowly heating pot of water we have given up freedom (and responsibility) in bits and pieces for a long time.
America I am most familiar with but the process has been going on all over the world (well perhaps we except places that were behind the iron curtain, they found freedom only to start surrendering it as fast as possible).
The mighty EU is nothing approaching a democracy (or republic) and yet these countries were desperate to join ...and now some are noticing what they have done.

Now many of us would say, hey I didn't want the Patriot Act, or I didn't want to join the EU. I certainly don't want cap n trade, or health care reform, and yes I certainly want the gov. to tell the truth about ...ET, technology etc.
Yes whatever side you are on any of these issues - we tend to feel there is little we can do, write letters and phone calls to reps. things like that and it ends.

But come on, we elected these idiots. And we keep on doing it. We are the people. If we really truly wanted truth and freedom would we not elect those who would give it to us?
We elected them, we are getting what we asked for!

I think we are conditioned to "take it". It has been taught your whole life. It has been ingrained, that a little bit of injustice never hurt anybody. Life isnt fair. The grass isnt greener on the other side.

But what happens, is you end up feeling helpless. For many different reasons.


I was pondering this the other day, and started a thread on the topic.
Here
I get exactly what your sayiing.

reply to post by InertiaZero


Just checked that thread out, thanks.
Yes what you are saying there is in the same vein. But like many ideas it tends to blame 'them'. The who and what that conditions people to follow the herd. I was more looking at the side of it that is really 'our' responsibility.
OK, so you were conditioned some in school maybe, maybe harmed by drugs etc. but you are awake now, you are here.
Back in the 60's a lot more were awake in their teens, still we keep on voting and believing left/right/change and being duped.
That we let them do this, we get what we deserve.

reply to post by Chett


Americans have never understood what freedom is. They love blowing up weddings, and taking others rights away, for doing nothing other than hating the biggest bully in the world.

This is the only thing i agree with on the ptb, that americans, have lost that right, just as they love taking away others rights.

So whats the solution? Just take it, because we deserve it? Because of the sins of other generations that definitely derserved it?

I think that "They" and "them" are easily identified as the government. The upper 1% that run everything. The big money. The over 100 millionaires in congress. The people that are supposed to be your voice, that dont care about what you have to say.

Along with everyone taking the abuse, along with those that are "awake", we are also disorganized.
But to get organized, you must have an appealing lure. You cant just you injustice as a motivator. You have to dress it up a little.
How do you turn societal rebellion into a mainstream issue? One that people would actually join and DO something about.

Or hey, maybe it is too late. We derserve it, and need to take it like a man.

Edit: Eye Kant Spel.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by InertiaZero]

reply to post by InertiaZero

Well I am still wrestling with this a bit, but it seems to me that the first step is to take responsibility. As long as we are sitting back saying its all 'their' fault we paint ourselves as victims. Victims don't tend to accomplish much.

The victim mentality is part of what you were saying I think, something rather conditioned in over the years.

I don't have an answer for sure, but maybe a glimmer of a path.

reply to post by andy1033


Generic blame Americans is not productive. We all have faults. 300 million Americans did not blow up a wedding (I dont know what incident you refer to, it doesn't really matter).
Painting all people of any given group with the same brush is I think part of the problem.

reply to post by Chett
The american people fell for the illuminati/nwo's biggest illusion, and that was "change"! Americans were tired of 12 years of the bush family, and they certainly didn't want another 4 years of hillary that would catapault the clinton's in the oval office a total of 12 years also! Failed policies are just that, failures.

Then along came Barack Obama. Nobody doesn't even care that he is "NOT" a natural born american citizen, they just want some real kind of change!, and they are getting it aren't they? Socialism at it's finest! Americans are really afraid of real, honest change, for they have seen only lip service and promises made by those who were out to deceive them in the first place. I am not myself what you would call a scholar, but I am nobody's fool either!

Here's something to think about when you people believe that it takes a college graduate to run this nation! Now, these alleged college grads in office now are the same dumbasses that can't balance our national debt, (math), have the entire world mad at us( sociology), keep america in baseless and unfounded wars (psychology), and have signed america's jobs away via treaties and trade agreements ( business ).

I only have a high school diploma, but I know how to balance my checkbook, talk to people so they aren't mad at me and won't get mad at me, I don't walk up to people and punch them in the mouth simply because I feel like it, and I don't trade anything with people that isn't what I consider fair or just! And to think that we have these bozos ruinning the greatest nation on this planet?

I myself could fix the problems of america, and so could nearly all of you folks out there in cyberworld, but the gov't has gotten something that's gonna be hard to take away from them, and that is "POWER"! We gave it to them in order for them to do the job that we wanted, but they didn't! They went to work for the dark forces the day after they got elected! This nation, and world for that matter can be fixed, but how many of you are really willing to do some serious sacrificing? That's the "REAL" question that needs to be answered!

reply to post by thewind

Well the problem goes beyond America, and further back than the Bush family, but yes it will take some personal sacrifice to fix for sure.
I for one am ready. But what is the question. I don't know what 1 person can do ... Cindy Sheean (spelling?) managed a lot for a single person but the MSM was on her side.
We have a lot of really smart people on this board (smart, educated or not) bouncing some thoughts around might come up with something.

reply to post by Chett
Yes, I am well aware that the problem goes back further than the bush and clinton families, but my point was what the nwo/illuminati uses as their weaponry which is: problem, reaction, solution.

The global elite knew that america was election weary and tired of the "politics as usual" game, so, after 20 years of bush/clintons, they inserted Barack Obama. See the picture now?

Problem: america tired of both bushes and clintons
Reaction: looking for some kind of change
Solution: Barack Obama

The nwo wins no matter who gets elected, for they control both candidates.

This is why america needs a candidate that has and is not associated or has been affiliated in any way with lobbyists, the cfr, tri-lats, council on foreign relations, and any gov't thinktanks, to include socialistic programs like acorn and other activist movements.

I could fix this country in less than 4 years, and everybody who wanted a job would have one, and all senior citizens would be well taken care of also! Now, if a simpleton like me can see what to do, you and I both know our so-called leaders in dc know it too! And I use the term leaders very loosely too!

Being Canadian by birth, American and British by choice I think I've got a bit of a grasp at least on the English-speaking powers, and I think there is an interesting question that must be raised here:

Has anything really changed? I love America, most Europeans do too actually if you talk to them about it, she was the greatest and most dynamic country I've ever lived in.
However, I think Americans suffer from the Chicken Little effect a bit. If a nut falls on your head, you're afraid the sky is falling by and large.

I learned a lot about American history in my time in college and getting my citizenship, now I may be one of those horrible mainstream media people you hear about but honestly, I don't think America has changed that much, save of course for the defining times of Vietnam, the fall of the Soviet Union and 9-11, since the start of the Cold War.

The world is still going to end tomorrow, instead of the Red Menace it's the United Nations for some reason now. Instead of fearing all of the Communists undermining our country it's the elites now. Instead of appealing to religion to differentiate ourselves from the Bolsheviks, we're doing it to show we're not godless globalists. And finally, we're still all going to have to fight apparently, instead of Red Dawn its Dark Angel. The sky is still falling, the same as it was when the Korean War started.

I for one still feel that I have the rights outlined in the Bill Of Rights when I step back into the USA. One has to remember that the Founding Fathers overwhelmingly were not the Libertarians that some like to portray them as. In fact the fight as old as the United States, State-ists versus Federal-ists is still alive and well here too, with Liberals (that we would call Torries in England) and Libertarians (that would probably get a nice soapbox in Hyde Park over here).

I understand that many of you are convinced that these things are coming, that the Republic is dead or at best dying, but I ask you, seriously my countrymen, has it actually impacted your daily life? Or is the sky still falling down?

Originally posted by thewind
I could fix this country in less than 4 years, and everybody who wanted a job would have one, and all senior citizens would be well taken care of also!

I would love to hear how you intended to do that my good man! I'm a journalist and I'll tell you anyone with a solution to the recession except for standard Smith-based economic theory would be a hero to everyone, if of course it worked.

Who we get to "elect" is unfortunately a stilted process that allows no-one in who would make any real changes. That is if you actually believe we have had real "elections" in this country since 2000. When the electronic voting machines became ubiquitous so did cheating. Most may be getting what they deserve but what of those who knew better and have tried to make a difference? I dare say they don't deserve what we are getting now.

I live in the uk, i never voted for the government we have now, but then im not programmed by the idiot box in the middle of the room so see the truth behind the lies before most people do, even then some people never see the truth when its in their face, I never wanted to be part of the EU, the whole thing is a scam to gain world government and power, but because mine was a minority vote, as with many in the US, we have to go along with the popular vote, that which is Democracy.

Then there is the reason people vote for who they do, which is all largely based on lies, and deception, why oh why do people insist on believing anyone running for an position of power when in the back of their mind they know that every reform and policy the promise to carry out in your name, is never going to happen, Take BO, himself saying no more troops to Afghanistan yet what is he up to now? is there no law against politicians lying to gain votes, i know in any other business you would go to jail for less. Its all a load of crap, no one deserves anything they get because we all vote on what we think will be an outcome because that's what we are told. The point is that they should get what they diverse. Jail!!!

reply to post by ProjectJimmy
Do you really wanna know how I would fix america, or are you just another person who wants to trash me for my ideas? If you're serious, then hang on, for what you're about to read will rock your world and many others around you.

What's wrong with america is that too many politicians are making too much money at the expense of the taxpayers. To combat this, the first thing I would do is reduce the income of all politicians, from the president down! Afterall, didn't Obama say that "we" all must sacrifice?

The president's salary would come down from $400,000 to a modest $65,000 per year, and the vp would get $60,000. Senators and congressmen would receive $50,000 per year, and it would all be tax free with the exception that we would all pay in social security taxes! This would put the onus on we politicians to take better care of social security!

I would cut completely out all pork barrel spending period! I would also cut down the number of senators and congressman needed to run their respective states, which would mean, an elimination of a lot of districts. Lobbyists would be a thing of the past also, for this gov't I would head up would actually work for the people, not corporations.

I would raise the pay scale for all entry level military personell. I don't think that a base pay of $600.00 a month is enough money to ask our children and grandchildren to go off and get shot at in a foreign land for, do you?

I would immediately abolish the federal reserve, and have it audited to see just how much money it actually wasted, and make it pay restitution to the people of the usa, and then I would pull out of any and all foreign trade treaties, and renegotiate them with the actual countries we would be trading with!

America does not need a WTO in order to do business with our foreign neighbors! America would go back to printing her own money and go back to a dollar backed system that will not only creat and mainstay a strong currency, but will make it more attractive to our friends abroad. Not only would the usa use gold as one currency backing standard, but we'd use grain, cattle, domestic commodities such as clothing and clothes making materials in conjunction with lumber and steel to not only create jobs nationally, but create a funneling effect globally of exported goods.

America would be able to be more competitive economically because we'd be in control of our own currency and could keep better control of inflation. I would work on all social programs like social security, kids healthcare, and healthcare for seniors, and education. I would encourage all major universities to lower their tuition ammounts in exchange for tax exempt and tax credits status, which would enable even low income children to get a quality education. To me, education is not just for the rich!

I would do away with the IRS, and operate under a single stat flat tax based on not only the job's rate of hourly pay, but would be also based on the cost of living in the given area where this work was located. Corporations would no longer be allowed to hide any monies in offshore accounts, or over in the banks of switzerland, and would be made to pay their fair share of capital gains taxes!

I would require states to raise their own fair share of revenue so teachers could get a decent paycheck! I also would not allow states to raise local taxes that were unfair to the citizens in their states like property taxes, car taxes, personal property taxes, and any other kind of hidden BS tax that would create a hinderance on it's citizens!

There are more ways to raise money other than raising or creating some kind of new tax! States can get businesses to come into their states, which would create things like tool taxes and capital gains tax revenues, and there are sales taxes on things like tobacco, alcohol, groceries, gas, and automobiles that can be properly used.

I would arrange everything where the gov't would always know exactly how much money it had to operate on each fiscal year, and would never need to do anything like raise our debt ceilings, create any new taxes, have our foreign neighbors buy up our debt like we are having to do now, and the biggest thing would be that our trade deficit would shrink because we wouldn't be in all those crappy trade agreements!

How much more info do you want here? I have a very serious and feesible plan to work with. Like I said, if a simpleton like me can figure all this out, why can't our leaders?

I would have foreign countries begging to do business with the usa, trust me!

Like heck we are getting what we deserve. Every bully , every child abuser, rapist , and murderer has a story to tell about how their victim/target deserved to be hurt. They really do believe their flawed reasoning. This is why prisons are built ,because evil people never stop taking advantage of the innocent on their own. There will be a reckoning for all those who are taking advantage of Americans at this time. They would be better off facing earthly justice, because karma is more punishing of wrong doing than man is.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by eradown]

reply to post by thewind


Hmm, well some of your ideas are quite Libertarian, and I'm not sold on their way yet, but there is a lot in your plan I can get behind! I agree 100% on the pay rates for federal political officials. Nobody should be in government to get rich, it should be to serve the people every single time. Getting rid of lobbyists will go a long way as well! I can't tell you the number of fiscal horror stories I've heard in my line of work that can be traced back to lobbying!

I also agree on increasing the base pay for the military, you're right that $600.00 a month is far too little for what soldiers do for America and the rest of the world. The same with teachers too.

If I may suggest in your plan making the federal pay a constitutional amendment, so that Congress no longer has the ability to give themselves massive raises anymore. Perhaps either make their raises dependent upon a national vote or simply just say that the base amount will be adjusted for inflation, but that is all.

Overall though, I would agree there are a lot of things in your plan that everyone could get behind, well done!

I like your ideas too, THEWIND, they are very inspiring.

The problem is, it's not very realistic. Its not as cut and dry as balancing your checkbook.
Wait a sec, before people get mad at me.

You cant just cut pay rates as president, you dont have that power. And even if you did, congress wouldnt let it happen. These guys have had money for years, they are millionaires. They will stay that way. Their children will have legacy sholarships to Harvard and Yale, and you will not.

There's other things in your posts as well, that would be impossible. You cant "abolish" the federal reserve. These people are not going to let you take their money away. You see, money has a habit of controlling things.

The states make their own tax rates, they may/may not be willing to change. This isnt a dictatorship youre talking about, is it?
Congress doesnt run the system.
The president doesnt run it.
Not the house.
Not the senate.
MONEY runs this country.

Take a deep breath, for me.

Let's drop all of the paranoia for a sec, and pretend like there is no NWO. The federal reserve isnt out to take over the world, no secrets... theyre just greedy.
Lets say(oh my god), politics work EXACTLY the way they are presented. Nothing behind the curtain, no conspiracies. What you see on CNN is the god honest truth.
............................
OK. Have you got in that mind-state?
Here we go.

Even with everything being LEGIT, capitalism is a broken system. As long as money is the motivator, as long as money=power, there is no change.
Even if the president was an honest man(he's not) and he wanted to make some of the changes you mentioned, the old money club wouldnt let him do it. There is too much greed. Capitalism is organized crime. This is a REAL conspiracy.
People here worry about a world power, having their freedom taken away. Too late, already happened. We bomb who we want. We Lie. We muscle our way through deals.

So I go back to my question.

Are you talking about a dictatorship? THEWIND would make a fantastic dictator. Take money out of the polital equation, and all we have left are CAUSES and ISSUES.
Because THAT is what will cause change. Otherwise, its the same wheel of BS that will continue to turn. Different faces, same agendas.
And that's not a conspiracy theory. Thats the truth. These people dont CARE about you. These people are criminals, and they get away with it, because they always HAVE.
We live on stolen land.
We have the same system we have always had.
We pay hidden taxes everyday.
We strike up/join a war every generation.
No one is hiding this from you.


What people fail to realize, and I believe this with all of my heart, is there is no great conspiracy. They dont have to hide anything. They screw you, right in front of your face. They lie, they cheat, and they do it all under "God".

Thats what I think. Yes, we deserve everything we get, in that case.

reply to post by InertiaZero
You cant just cut pay rates as president, you dont have that power.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I would have 'THAT" power, for I would do it by executive order if need be. Like Paul Begala said when slick willie was in office, if the congres didn't wanna play ball, run the country with the stroke of a pen, kinda cool.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The states make their own tax rates, they may/may not be willing to change.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, while the states reserve the right to make their own tax rates, they would have to be a "fair" and balanced rate per-capita! NO taxes just because the states want them!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This isnt a dictatorship youre talking about, is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NO, I am not talking about a dictatorship by far at all! During my administration, each and every piece of legislation would be debated on live tv so all americans could call in, twitter in, and blog about the bill being discussed! ALL, and I do mean ALL pieces of legislation would be voted on by the american people, and neither the congress, nor the senate would be having anymore "behind" the door meetings placing their "pork" projects on any of it! Once the american people have voted on the bill, then the senate and house would have the final "say-so" vote which would pass or fail the said bill in question. Also, it would take a major majority, say 2/3 to pass or fail any given bill, and there will be no such things as "nuclear" options and fillibusters, for the american people are the ones that have the final say so because they voted the bill in or out. This places the onus on the american people, not the politicians!

As president, I would clearly and plainly put the "Power" back into the hands of the american people where it belongs! This way, the people can't piss, bitch and moan about what the gov't has or has not done!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a list of what I would deal with in my first term of office

1) Salaries of all politicians
2) retirement of all politicians
3) social security
4) medicare
5) education
6) teacher's salaries
7) the prison systems
8) pork spending
9) the federal reserve
10) military spending(to include pay raises for entry level troops)
11) lobbyists
12) abolishing the IRS
13) constitutional ammendments concerning political salaries, term limits, retirement of all federal employees, and proper exhibition of legislation proposals.
14) all trade agreements
15) getting out of the UN
16) national security
17) dealing with election fraud
18) dealing with the war on drugs
19) downsizing gov't
20) mending fences with those whom our previous leaders have offended
21) our trade deficit
22) our national debt
23) illegal aliens
24) our welfare system
25) posturing and properly alligning ourselves with our allies


And the above can be accomplished in about the first 3 years, if the american people would work with me. Yes, sacrifices will have to be made, and for my system to work, everybody, not just the poor will have to cooperate. When I am done, people globally will be begging to do business with america, and will be wanting to be our neighbors again, even russia!

Will it be an easy task, no it won't, for americans have had things way too easy for way too long! People need 3 things to survive, something to eat, a roof over their heads, and a place to live! Anything else that is a surplus, folks will learn to save and not live above their means! This means that things like credit cards, and easy bank loans will no longer be there. If you don't have the income and proper credit, you will make do with what you got, and banks will risk losing their gov't status if something happens like it has with the ongoing TARP bailouts! Obama should have bailed out the american people and let the banks go belly up as far as I am concerned, but he just proved that the federal gov't works for corporations, not the american people!


[edit on 17-12-2009 by thewind]