Is Jesus the only way to find God?

This question is mainly aimed towards Christians but anyone can reply if they wish…

I am kind of a Christian myself, although there are still many things I struggle with in my faith. I am absolutely sure, that in many parts of the bible, that the spirit of God, is clearly speaking through Jesus. Recently I am starting to believe that being a Christian is more about people finding and coming to know God, than it is about condemnation. I know that getting to know Jesus, is in effect, getting to know God.

The reason I ask this question is because recently I started thinking about all the other non Christian faiths/religious groups, in the world, who pray to God. Now assuming we are in agreement, that there is only one God, all these groups are essentially praying too, the one and only God. The only difference is, is that they do not know, or recognize the name of Jesus. I just find it hard too believe that God would turn someone away, that is praying to him directly, just because they don’t know the name of Jesus. I have even considered the possibility that there are people out there, who have experienced the spirit of God in there lives and within there own being, but have no knowledge themselves of Jesus or the bible.

NIV
John 13:16 “I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.”

I’m pretty sure that the above verse is referring to the fact that Jesus is the servant/messenger and that God is greater than Jesus himself. Jesus is constantly telling us throughout the bible, that we need to get to know the farther God and pray to God for many things. Don’t get me wrong, if people find God through Jesus, then that is great but can people find God, without knowing anything about Jesus? If you are a Christian, do you think it is possible?

I look forward to hearing people’s thoughts and ideas on this subject…


JC

The myth that only by "Jesus" comes from John 3:16 and John 14:6. However, what is left in the open is what it means to "believe".

You are right about the messenger part. That is one of the basics the father taught me. Not to focus on the messenger, but to instead focus on what they said. Because to give the message is the purpose of the messenger. So that is what I do.

Lets take a look at John 14:6.

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Do you see how he is defining himself there? What is he saying? Is he saying that only by "Jesus" can one find the father? Or is he saying that only by the way, the truth and the life can one come by the father? Jesus being one who represents those things through his understanding and actions.

The answer to this, and you question is found later in John 14.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How could they hear the father if not through Jesus and his sayings if it was true that only by "Jesus" does one get to the father? The answer is - by seeking and following the way, the truth and the life.

Jesus is interchangeable with those things because that is what he lived and did. However, these things are obtainable by any man who seeks them, regardless of race, culture and religion(although sometimes those things can keep one from seeking, Christianity included).

When I found the father, it was by those things, not "Jesus" or any religion etc. I didn't at the time even realize I was seeking out those things, I was just trying to understand the world and things like that. Didn't realize Jesus talked about what I experienced until months later.

It is all about helping people find and coming to know God than it is about condemnation. If you find the father now, then you have found the father early(proverbs 8).

But it is not doom and gloom for everyone. Far from it. Remember, those who are poor in spirit are blessed. What do you think Psalm 82 is talking about when it says defend the fatherless and the poor? It's not about orphans and money that is for sure, and it surely doesn't tell you to condemn them. Always have mercy on others, and if you can not find an easy way to have mercy on them, then think about the errors you have made and things you aren't proud of. That will humble you real quick and help.

I'll stop here, I could ramble on for pages.



[edit on 11/27/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia



Hey Badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
The myth that only by "Jesus" comes from John 3:16 and John 14:6. However, what is left in the open is what it means to "believe".

So what you are saying, is that it is really about how we define, what it means to “believe”. Strange…I have been asking my Christian friends a similar question recently…i.e. “What does it mean to believe in Jesus?” or “What does it mean, to truly follow Jesus?” My own answer to these questions, and this is the short version, is that it is really about following and getting to know God.

Originally posted by badmedia
You are right about the messenger part. That is one of the basics the father taught me. Not to focus on the messenger, but to instead focus on what they said. Because to give the message is the purpose of the messenger. So that is what I do.

Yes…this is just the thing…When Jesus speaks in the bible, sometimes it is God talking and other times it is Jesus speaking…I know, it sounds like a paradox, but it’s not. Most of the time it is obvious when it is God talking and when it is Jesus talking but sometimes it is not so clear.

I agree with what you are saying about not focusing on the messenger but instead focusing on what is being said, because what is being said, is coming directly from God, even though it is being spoken through Jesus. So by focusing on this, we are focusing on God, which I believe, is exactly, what Jesus wants us to do.

Originally posted by badmedia
Lets take a look at John 14:6.

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Do you see how he is defining himself there? What is he saying? Is he saying that only by "Jesus" can one find the father? Or is he saying that only by the way, the truth and the life can one come by the father? Jesus being one who represents those things through his understanding and actions.

I have read the above about 30 times and have erased my reply to it 4 times lol…so try to bear with me…

I believe you are saying that we need to be more Christ like, in order to come to God, and rather than following Jesus the man, we are to follow his example.

I have to say that most Christians interpret (John 14:6) as meaning, we can only come to God, through Jesus the person.

As for myself, I am currently undecided on this point, which is the reason I set up this thread.

Originally posted by badmedia
The answer to this, and you question is found later in John 14.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


How could they hear the father if not through Jesus and his sayings if it was true that only by "Jesus" does one get to the father? The answer is - by seeking and following the way, the truth and the life.

This may sound like a strange question…but here goes...

How do you personally, define "the way, the truth and the life?"

Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus is interchangeable with those things because that is what he lived and did. However, these things are obtainable by any man who seeks them, regardless of race, culture and religion(although sometimes those things can keep one from seeking, Christianity included).

When I found the father, it was by those things, not "Jesus" or any religion etc. I didn't at the time even realize I was seeking out those things, I was just trying to understand the world and things like that. Didn't realize Jesus talked about what I experienced until months later.

By seeking those things, do you mean looking for truth in all things?
I think you mentioned your experience to me on another thread, where you had a vision, almost like an OBE and there was a voice asking you if you wanted the experience to come to an end. (sorry for the short and hazy version). I was meaning to ask you, how from this experience, did you know that you were getting closer to God?

Originally posted by badmedia
It is all about helping people find and coming to know God than it is about condemnation…

Wow… that is the first time I have heard a Christian saying that. I feel in my heart, that it is the truth.

Originally posted by badmedia
But it is not doom and gloom for everyone. Far from it. Remember, those who are poor in spirit are blessed. What do you think Psalm 82 is talking about when it says defend the fatherless and the poor? It's not about orphans and money that is for sure, and it surely doesn't tell you to condemn them. Always have mercy on others, and if you can not find an easy way to have mercy on them, then think about the errors you have made and things you aren't proud of. That will humble you real quick and help.

Psalm 82 is reffering to people who do not know God (fatherless) and the poor, are the people who are poor in spirit because they do not know God.

The God I know, is quick to show mercy and slow to judge.

I find that through understanding comes forgiveness. I try not to judge anyone because I always think to myself that I don’t know what a person has gone through or the type of life they have lived.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
So what you are saying, is that it is really about how we define, what it means to “believe”. Strange…I have been asking my Christian friends a similar question recently…i.e. “What does it mean to believe in Jesus?” or “What does it mean, to truly follow Jesus?” My own answer to these questions, and this is the short version, is that it is really about following and getting to know God.

Check out the verses later in John 14.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

If you really believe, then you should do and follow in his example. This is also important when it comes to Matthew 7, when he tells you to look at their fruits, and how not everyone who praises "Jesus" is really a believer, as they work in sin(not in line with what Jesus did/taught).

This is also where it ties in the OT. Because by believing in Jesus and following him, then you will be keeping the commandments. How does 1 keep the commandments? By understanding(Psalm 111:10). So, Jesus gives people the understanding needed to keep the commandments properly by his example.

Yes…this is just the thing…When Jesus speaks in the bible, sometimes it is God talking and other times it is Jesus speaking…I know, it sounds like a paradox, but it’s not. Most of the time it is obvious when it is God talking and when it is Jesus talking but sometimes it is not so clear.

From my experience the actual word of god is not a written or spoken language like men have. In my experience with the father, his word is like pure understanding. It's like the father has never told me "directly" the commandments. Instead, I was given the understanding behind them, and then I could see them on my own.

But how one expresses that understanding will change from person to person.

So, like take the understanding you have of math. Rather than the father saying to you 1+1=2, you will just understand math. It comes in that kind of a manner, and each time it's like when you were a kid and figured/understood something for the first time. You may express that in terms of 1+1=2, but you see even then you do not and can not really capture the true word of god. Jesus is like a 1+1=2 on the understanding of math. A true expression of the understanding.

This is what it means by let those with ears hear. Listening vs hearing. Anyone can listen and repeat the words used to express, or repeat the words of Jesus. But to actually hear Jesus means you aren't just listening, you are understanding. And it is in the understanding Jesus expresses that I recognize the father and know Jesus is true.

No man can give to you understanding. I can't just directly port my understanding to you. I am reduced to only being able to use expressions of it. A shadow of it. So when you are "hearing" god in Jesus, you are seeing hearing the understanding. Proverbs 8 and 9 for that.

I agree with what you are saying about not focusing on the messenger but instead focusing on what is being said, because what is being said, is coming directly from God, even though it is being spoken through Jesus. So by focusing on this, we are focusing on God, which I believe, is exactly, what Jesus wants us to do.

The father showed me that it goes much deeper than just Jesus however. I was shown to apply that to all things. And that by doing that, I could see the truth of them.

What happens is people start to focus on the idol/messenger, and they forget the message itself. In fact, this is an active manipulation tactic being used in all places of power. People praise and tribute the idol/messenger, but then do not keep the message. This happens in large part because people don't understand the message itself. So, the wolves surround themselves in symbolisms, praise them while working against the very principles of those symbols. Like a politician who praises the flag and people, but then just works to screw them over.

But when you focus instead on the message and understanding of things, and you look at their fruits, then you can see exactly what they are about, and what they stand for etc.

By doing this, it's like you see an entirely new world. Nothing changes in your vision physically, but you can see through people. You can see through the manipulations etc.

I have read the above about 30 times and have erased my reply to it 4 times lol…so try to bear with me…

I believe you are saying that we need to be more Christ like, in order to come to God, and rather than following Jesus the man, we are to follow his example.

I'm not sure it's so much you need to be Christ like to get there. I can really only speak from my personal experience on this. I was by no means exactly Christ like when I found the father. I was not even someone who really believed in god, but I was open to the possibility. I thought religion was nuts - still do on many counts. No real clue what the bible says.

I started to see the manipulation in politics more than I had before. I looked at the world and I was distraught about it. I started to think and wonder how would men have to act towards one another to live in peace, or what would be considered a heavenly society. How do men need to treat others?

And as I did that, the commandments started to come to mind - part of them anyway. I came to realize that men would have to live and let live. In order to have freedom, you have to give freedom. And that would be the only way they could live together in peace, to accept one another as they were and so on. Do not infringe on free will. And when you think about what that means, you get the commandments. Do not steal, do not kill, do not lie and so forth. These are all infringements on another persons free will.

Then it's just a matter of being that change. How can you expect to live in a society with no murder if you yourself murder? Impossible. This is why it is so important to keep the commandments. Because if you don't, how can you live in a such a society as "heaven".

I didn't know it at the time, but that is simply the law and the prophets. As Jesus says, love one another as yourself. If you love something, you will set it free(god gives free will out of love right?). What do you really want in life? Freedom to pursue your interests. If it loves you, then it will come back - the rest of the 2 things Jesus says(love god).

Matthew 22

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I have to say that most Christians interpret (John 14:6) as meaning, we can only come to God, through Jesus the person.

This is 1 reason I don't consider myself a Christian, although I am obviously a believer in Jesus. I just don't care for organized religion, and to make oneself an authority of god is just wrong. But it's not that all Christians are bad etc, just that I differ enough that they wouldn't accept me.

As for myself, I am currently undecided on this point, which is the reason I set up this thread.

Which is good. Always seek understanding, it will be answered in my experience. But not so much by another person, but from within. You might see things "out there" that prompt things etc, but the real understanding will come from within. By acknowledging the lack of understanding you are 1st being honest with yourself, and 2 setting yourself up to seek the answer.

It's what is meant when it says to become like a child. What does a child do? Well, they are brutally honest for starters. And because of that when they don't know something - they ask questions and seek the answers. No shame for them, they don't worry if someone will think they are dumb for not knowing and so on. When people are like adults, they instead think they know already, or they just ignore the problem for that fear of what others will think, thus they do not seek and they do not gain the understanding needed.

But the true answers will come from within, and will be based in understanding. No man can give you that. One of the biggest things that helped me was realizing I could not trust any man, and had only understanding to rely on. And not because all men will try to deceive me. Someone could be completely honest with me, and still be wrong etc. This put my focus towards the father/understanding.

This may sound like a strange question…but here goes...

How do you personally, define "the way, the truth and the life?"

Not strange at all.

The way is what I mentioned before about the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

By fulfilling them, Jesus brings the understanding and example needed for you to keep the law - which he does not destroy. By fulfilling them, he shows what is the law of men, and what is the law of god - again with understanding. As Jesus does these things, he is the physical manifestation of the way, or word of the OT.

cont.

[edit on 11/29/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Joecroft
This may sound like a strange question…but here goes...

How do you personally, define "the way, the truth and the life?"

The understanding part you can find in Proverbs 9. It is wisdom and understanding in the OT that guides men down the path. Proverbs 9 is the original "last super", and in the last super in the NT, Jesus plays the role of wisdom and understanding in it. So that is the way.

The truth and life are a bit more difficult to talk about. But the easiest way to say it is that the truth is understanding(knowledge of the holy is understanding, proverbs 9).

So when Jesus does what he does and gives the example etc, then he is by that method showing people the truth of things. He shows what are the traditions of men, what is the hypocrisy and so forth, and exposes the truth. It is for this reason they conspired to kill him etc, even though he committed no crime at all. Again, the physical manifestation of the truth. This of course goes hand in hand as part of the way.

And the life. Well if you want to get into things within, then it can be deeper, but think of genesis and how the spirit of god brings creation to "life" and the 2nd birth of spirit. But in lighter sense, Jesus is supposed to be the norm, not the exception. And so Jesus is the manifestation of that which acts purely from that spirit/life. Yet, this should be the norm, and if everyone followed the way, then it would be.

By seeking those things, do you mean looking for truth in all things?
I think you mentioned your experience to me on another thread, where you had a vision, almost like an OBE and there was a voice asking you if you wanted the experience to come to an end. (sorry for the short and hazy version

). I was meaning to ask you, how from this experience, did you know that you were getting closer to God?

Well, I just knew what it was, and I had a very deep understanding that came along with it. It was just so unlike anything I had ever experienced. Still after the vision I thought I was going crazy to be honest, simply because of the nature of what I had come to understand. My entire life my concept of "what is god" was basically like the sky fairy thing. Nobody ever talked about the father within and so forth, and still I don't see many Christians who get it either.

But things just kept getting reinforced. As I doubted I asked questions and so forth to myself, and the answers would come in weird ways that would give me understanding. I would be wondering about something, and I might hear just a single line on a radio commercial that would answer me, or repeat the answer I thought was right. I was wondering about something one day, took a walk in the park and got an answer in nature. Things like that. I understand alot more about creation and such, and I have seen things beyond "time" and I can't even really explain it. In the end, I think everyone just needs to experience it for themselves.

It's basically just so profound and the experience is on such a higher level it kind of leaves no doubt. Everytime I start to doubt, it's like bam the understanding is there. And then a few months later, I seen little tidbits of Jesus from the bible, and suddenly he made sense on the same level as that experience. I could see the father in him. And I had read those same verses before, but they never made any real sense to me. That was another big confirmation for me. John 14 basically describes my experience exactly.

Wow… that is the first time I have heard a Christian saying that. I feel in my heart, that it is the truth.

Well, I don't consider myself a Christian. I think many bad things about the Christian religion in general. It was the Christian religion that turned me away from god in the start. For exactly these kinds of reasons. All I seen from them was blind idol worship, hypocrisy and dressed up hatred.

But, I found that Jesus was not about that. I found that Jesus was against that, and warns against it. I found the bible was against those things in the OT, and so forth. The smartest thing I ever did in my life was separate religion and religious people from god. I was foolish before then, I based my judgments on god based on what religious people said and did. Never again.

Not that all Christians are bad or anything. I can't blame all Christians for the actions of a few etc. But I find it is the ones who push the "religion" rather than the "understanding" the ones who offend in that manner. Again, just poor in spirit though, still very much blessed. Those who deceive are the guilty there, and only need to deceive good people to get them to do bad things.

Psalm 82 is reffering to people who do not know God (fatherless) and the poor, are the people who are poor in spirit because they do not know God.

The God I know, is quick to show mercy and slow to judge.

I find that through understanding comes forgiveness. I try not to judge anyone because I always think to myself that I don’t know what a person has gone through or the type of life they have lived.

Yes, those who are poor in spirit do not have understanding. I keep mentioning it, so I'll quote the verse.

Proverbs 8

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

...

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

It starts out talking about wisdom and understanding crying out to men, but I had to hit the highlights for space. Recommend it all. But there it shows that wisdom and understanding is what is "rich" in the eyes of god. And so when you find the father, that is what he rewards and gives to those who do. Thus making that person "rich in spirit". Jesus obviously being extremely wealthy lol. So those who are fatherless and poor are those who lack understanding.

And that goes back to what I was talking about before with my gripe on "Christianity". I see manipulation of the poor in spirit, rather than showing and sharing the riches. But all things happen for a reason.

Now, as for forgiveness. You are forgiven the moment you fix your mistakes, which is to repent for your sins. And this is done by understanding. Because it is by understanding that you are able to know how to fix those mistakes and sins.

Psalm 111:10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

So like when people are able to forgive peoples sins with the holy spirit. What does the holy spirit do? Brings understanding and teaches. So, by that understanding one can show the other person the error in their ways, thus how to fix the mistake/sin. Or for things that can't be fixed, at least see the error to never do it again.

The moment/second you do that, you are forgiven. It is the highest form of atonement. I don't know if you have kids, but it is the exact same thing as with your own kids. You just want them to do the right things and learn from their mistakes. As you have then learned from your mistake, and won't make it again you are automatically forgiven for it. Again, this is done based on understanding.

So yes, understanding and forgiveness go hand in hand. However, you may still end up reaping a bit from your previous mistake. Can't exactly plant corn, then realize/understand you should have planted wheat and expect to harvest wheat that season. But next season you can, have to eat the corn that season though. I still eat corn I planted in my youth, but doing my best not to plant anymore.

Sorry for rambling, it's my favorite discussion.

reply to post by Joecroft


I'm gonna let you in on a little well known secret.

Jesus is God and all versions of the bible say so.

The NIV leans a little more on the critical text side but its an excellent place to start.

Learn the covenants first then the whole thing seems to fall right into place.

Theres a lot of knowledgeable people here to help you.

Stay away from wolfs.

peace.

reply to post by oliveoil


Actually, when Jesus is asked that question, all he does is quote Psalms 82. Which is exactly the reason why his "trial" was a conspiracy against him. He did not say anything that was out of place.

John 10

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

He is basically asking them why do they think it so odd for him to say such a thing. As the scripture(psalm 82) says all are sons of god. Then Jesus says look at what he says and does(works), by that you can see that what he says is true. By his fruit you can know that Jesus is true.

But there is the father and son relationship. Jesus says the father is much greater than he is, and he also says they are one. This is what it means to be born of spirit as he speaks in John 3.

In order to have the "reality" you have before you, it requires a limited perception and knowledge. The father is that which has no limited perception(omni-potent), and is all knowing.

So, the father limits himself in order to create "reality", or this experience. Thus, Jesus is saying he and the father are one, but when he says the father is greater than he is, he is talking about the above.

It's like a movie film. If you stretch that movie film out from end to end and view the entire movie film at once, then you would be all knowing of that movie. Viewing it in an unlimited perception. All parts of the movie are known at once, there is "no time", as there is no change, and it's just "eternal" in that manner. For creation, that is the father perspective.

Now, you take that same movie film and view it in a limited perspective. 1 frame after another. You get time, you get change and you experience the movie in this manner. This is the son perspective.

So they are one in the same, and the father is greater than the son. The movie film is a light example, because when you get into what "all knowing" really encompasses, it's like more like having an infinite amount of movie films etc. But you can see the differences in perspective.

The above reason is also why it is said that if you were to truly "see" god, "you" would cease to exist. You would lose the limited perspective required for this reality. "You" would no longer be "you". It's that line you can't cross while "alive".

Father and son relationship.

reply to post by Joecroft
Jesus implied that knowledge of the Father can proceed knowledge of him (Jesus). If people knew the Father, then they would recognize the Father's words in what he was saying.

Very many people were already waiting for the Messiah before he came. Some for one reason, some for others. After he came and did his work and said what he said, he went away. Those who wanted the Messiah to bring worldly power and dominion rejected him. Those who looked for something better and deeper accepted him, and learned better about God.

When Paul was speaking to the Greeks (sermons recorded in Acts eg 17:22-31) he basically said, "I'm not telling you anything new, I'm just telling you the name of the man who will judge the world.

"God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us"Acts 17:27

I think you said you are a Christian. Then you know that Jesus is judge. Get to know Jesus as much as you can, then ask "How many of these humble loving people will Jesus turn away because they did not know or did not acknowledge the name."

I am a Pagan wolf, whose knit clothes are all synthetic.
Remember that many people rejected Jesus because he did not bring worldly power and dominion. Nowdays these same kinds of people will gladly take the name of Christ in order to gain worldly political power and dominion, without even following Jesus. These are the ones who rip and tear the flock. They cast out the sheep they want to. They act as judges of humanity though only Jesus is the true judge. These beware of. They don't even deserve to be called wolves.

Jesus knows better than any those who are his. Read also Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus told many stories indicating that outward profession of faith is a bit irrelevant compared to following his commands and truly caring about people

[edit on 29-11-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by badmedia



Firstly, thank you, for your lengthy reply…

Originally posted by badmedia
Well, I just knew what it was, and I had a very deep understanding that came along with it. It was just so unlike anything I had ever experienced. Still after the vision I thought I was going crazy to be honest, simply because of the nature of what I had come to understand. My entire life my concept of "what is god" was basically like the sky fairy thing. Nobody ever talked about the father within and so forth, and still I don't see many Christians who get it either.

But things just kept getting reinforced. As I doubted I asked questions and so forth to myself, and the answers would come in weird ways that would give me understanding. I would be wondering about something, and I might hear just a single line on a radio commercial that would answer me, or repeat the answer I thought was right. I was wondering about something one day, took a walk in the park and got an answer in nature. Things like that. I understand alot more about creation and such, and I have seen things beyond "time" and I can't even really explain it. In the end, I think everyone just needs to experience it for themselves.

It's basically just so profound and the experience is on such a higher level it kind of leaves no doubt. Everytime I start to doubt, it's like bam the understanding is there. And then a few months later, I seen little tidbits of Jesus from the bible, and suddenly he made sense on the same level as that experience. I could see the father in him. And I had read those same verses before, but they never made any real sense to me. That was another big confirmation for me. John 14 basically describes my experience exactly.

Sounds pretty amazing…I don’t know if you can remember but I was telling you on another thread about my dream, I had about a year ago, when I heard a voice asking me “What is man” or What are you?”. The reason I mentioned this at that time was because you posted a similar question on another thread, asking an ATS member “What am I”. Btw… I am not someone who is prone to hearing voices and it was the first and only time it has ever happened to me. I did a search two months ago and found that Martin Luther King, wrote a famous essay, entitled “What is Man”. (it was also the title of a book by Mark Twian) I’m still unsure what the significance of that is, if any... I’m still working on it.

Anyway… I have had these strong intuitive feelings or maybe a knowing, is a better way to describe it. I’m not sure how long I have had it but it’s only fairly recently that I started to take notice of it. About two years ago I had this thought, that "nothing ever dies"…I didn’t know at the time where it came from, (this was before I really believed in God) it just popped in there lol I just kind of felt it was true but with no understanding as to how or why. Today though, I feel, I am a lot closer to the answer, if indeed I don’t already have the answer. This type of thing happens in a subtle way now but I don’t get any understanding to go with it. I have to study, research, read books and search online etc etc… to get the understanding. I would give my back teeth lol to get this “pure understanding” you are talking about.

Originally posted by badmedia
Not that all Christians are bad or anything. I can't blame all Christians for the actions of a few etc. But I find it is the ones who push the "religion" rather than the "understanding" the ones who offend in that manner. Again, just poor in spirit though, still very much blessed. Those who deceive are the guilty there, and only need to deceive good people to get them to do bad things.

Yes, I truly believe that all Christian denominations have found God including the ones who are poor in spirit or who don’t fully understand God. Obviously it would be better if they had true understanding but I believe like you have pointed out, that God blesses them anyway, regardless.

The crunch for me though, is other religious groups throughout the world, who pray to God and the fact that the Christians say or believe, that they do not know the true God, because they do not know Jesus and are therefore condemned.

I mean take the Jewish people for example, and this is probably the most ironic example, because they are praying too exactly the same God as the Christians are, and praying exactly the same prayers from the psalms ect... that were inspired and God breathed. I asked a Christian friend about this once and the reply I got was, they have a "veil over their eyes". I just find it hard to accept that God has left a "veil over their eyes" for over 2000 years and that during all this time, they have apparently been condemned,...according to the Christian doctrine.

Originally posted by badmedia
So like when people are able to forgive peoples sins with the holy spirit. What does the holy spirit do? Brings understanding and teaches. So, by that understanding one can show the other person the error in their ways, thus how to fix the mistake/sin. Or for things that can't be fixed, at least see the error to never do it again.

I have just realized that you yourself, are living proof, that you can find God, without knowing anything about Jesus, even though you did find Jesus later on. I mean you received the “Holy Spirit” because you were seeking the truth and like Jesus says, if you seek the truth you will find it.

Did you receive any gifts of the spirit, like “speaking in tongues”, for example?



- JC

reply to post by pthena

Originally posted by pthena
Jesus implied that knowledge of the Father can proceed knowledge of him (Jesus). If people knew the Father, then they would recognize the Father's words in what he was saying.

Yes I absolutely agree that people should be able to recognize, the
Father’s words, that are spoken through Jesus. What I am trying to figure out is, can people reach/find the Farther/God without knowing anything about Jesus at all? Assuming they are non Christian of course.

Take for example Muslims, who may live in a part of the world where there are no bibles aloud. Now bearing in mind that they pray to God everyday and the fact that there is only one God. Do you think as a Christian, that they might be praying directly to the Father or that at least the Father/God hears them?

Originally posted by pthena
Remember that many people rejected Jesus because he did not bring worldly power and dominion.

I believe you are referring to the Jews, who were expecting the messiah, to be a great ruler, who would help them, to crush their enemies. It is IMO, ironic to think that after all this time and still, praying the prayer’s from the Old Testament, that according to the Christians, God, does not hear the Jewish people because they have rejected Jesus.

This is what I find the hardest thing to accept, because the Old Testament is full of Gods word and much of it is repeated in the New Testament. Ok, maybe they don’t accept Jesus, but they are praying, those very same prayers, that were inspired by the Lord God, so surely God must hear them…right?

- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
Sounds pretty amazing…I don’t know if you can remember but I was telling you on another thread about my dream, I had about a year ago, when I heard a voice asking me “What is man” or What are you?”. The reason I mentioned this at that time was because you posted a similar question on another thread, asking an ATS member “What am I”. Btw… I am not someone who is prone to hearing voices and it was the first and only time it has ever happened to me. I did a search two months ago and found that Martin Luther King, wrote a famous essay, entitled “What is Man”. (it was also the title of a book by Mark Twian) I’m still unsure what the significance of that is, if any... I’m still working on it.

Anyway… I have had these strong intuitive feelings or maybe a knowing, is a better way to describe it. I’m not sure how long I have had it but it’s only fairly recently that I started to take notice of it. About two years ago I had this thought, that "nothing ever dies"…I didn’t know at the time where it came from, (this was before I really believed in God) it just popped in there lol I just kind of felt it was true but with no understanding as to how or why. Today though, I feel, I am a lot closer to the answer, if indeed I don’t already have the answer. This type of thing happens in a subtle way now but I don’t get any understanding to go with it. I have to study, research, read books and search online etc etc… to get the understanding. I would give my back teeth lol to get this “pure understanding” you are talking about.

I remember you before.

The stuff about "who you are" is all dealing with being born of spirit. When that happens then you will understand that. Interestingly enough, you will also understand why the physical death isn't real, and why Jesus says do not fear those who can kill the body. Many things will not make alot of sense without being born of spirit.

However, the commandments and way can still be understand even without the born of spirit part.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The part about the father being within, that is something that comes from being born of spirit(John 14:20 is the day it happens for you). The "or else" part means you can still understand the commandments, and why they are good and should be followed. It seems to me you get that, you can see for the very works sake etc. That is not bad and is a sign you are on your way I think.

But it does sound to me like you aren't trusting yourself enough when you look externally for answers. I try to look externally for questions(I call them seeds), internally for answers.

Externally, you will find every possible answer. It can't be trusted. If every person on this forum were to answer your questions, you would likely find every possible point of view on the question. Which one do you trust? All you can go off is what makes the most sense in understanding, and thus the real answer already came internally.

In the end I think people get what they need when they need it. Whatever that may be. Some lessons can only be learned in certain contexts, so it could just be something like that. I wouldn't worry myself about it too much. For me, it was the last thing I expected.

Yes, I truly believe that all Christian denominations have found God including the ones who are poor in spirit or who don’t fully understand God. Obviously it would be better if they had true understanding but I believe like you have pointed out, that God blesses them anyway, regardless.

The crunch for me though, is other religious groups throughout the world, who pray to God and the fact that the Christians say or believe, that they do not know the true God, because they do not know Jesus and are therefore condemned.

I mean take the Jewish people for example, and this is probably the most ironic example, because they are praying too exactly the same God as the Christians are, and praying exactly the same prayers from the psalms ect... that were inspired and God breathed. I asked a Christian friend about this once and the reply I got was, they have a "veil over their eyes". I just find it hard to accept that God has left a "veil over their eyes" for over 2000 years and that during all this time, they have apparently been condemned,...according to the Christian doctrine.

I don't know that all of them have found god. Within each religion, I see 2 types of people. Those who listen and those who hear. Some people only see the literal and some people understand. It's like with Jesus, and how all religions claim to have some tie to him, or is similar. Why? Because of the understanding itself.

The understanding is like a math equation. The understanding behind math leads to many expressions, 1+1=2, 3+3=6, 4+2=6 and so on. So 1 man may express it as 1+1=2, or the bible/Jesus, and another man may express it as 3+3=6, or the great spirit etc. In understanding, they are talking about the same things, same principles. You can see it when you look at the fruits, rather than the symbols.

So with Christians I have difficulty for example. Someone can say "Jesus is truth", and to me that is like them saying 1+1=2. Yes, I agree with that statement. However, I then see that they do not actually understand what it means, which is like repeating 1+1=2, but not understanding math.

And that is the same reason why those who keep the commandments have understanding. Because it is based on that understanding that you are able to apply them. Just as it is with understanding of math that it becomes useful in our lives, where as those who repeat 1+1=2 but don't know math are unable to apply and make it useful in their lives.

So I don't know if they have found god exactly, I don't think repeating 1+1=2 is the same as understanding it. But in the end they will. All things of the father will return to the father, no exceptions. Some have, and that is usually the basis of a religion(not all, paganism/idolism are not very high up in that IMO). Those with understanding will be able to see and know that both 1+1=2 and 3+3=6 are true expressions. But the ones who do not understand and repeat will argue between them(religious wars). I don't think of it in terms of religion, but rather in terms of understanding.

None of us are perfect. I'm certainly not.

I have just realized that you yourself, are living proof, that you can find God, without knowing anything about Jesus, even though you did find Jesus later on. I mean you received the “Holy Spirit” because you were seeking the truth and like Jesus says, if you seek the truth you will find it.

Did you receive any gifts of the spirit, like “speaking in tongues”, for example?

No gifts that I am aware of outside understanding and being able to touch souls with truth. The holy spirit is able to speak to anyone in the manner they understand, thus "any tongue". Because it "speaks" on a level of understanding, and thus is universal just like math is.

But I guess it's possible someone could instantly know another language or something like that. I never experienced anything like it though, so I don't really know.

Good luck, hope you find what you are looking for.


[edit on 11/30/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Joecroft

Take for example Muslims, who may live in a part of the world where there are no bibles aloud. Now bearing in mind that they pray to God everyday and the fact that there is only one God. Do you think as a Christian, that they might be praying directly to the Father or that at least the Father/God hears them?

Jesus is in the Koran. I've only read it once, so am no expert. If I understand correctly the Shia at least believe that Jesus will return with the 12th Imam on the last day.

I have written extensively on these subjects in Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works? www.belowtopsecret.com...
The discussion went on for some time. It seems there is a limit on when you can go back and edit posts, so some things that I would have recanted, I couldn't. It was a process of discovery much like your thread here.

There is one God who hears our prayers. God cares less about religion than we do.

Jesus in the Koran is not Christ so he is not the same Jesus otherwise there is no need for a Koran, Jehovah witnesses believe in jesus but they forget to tell you they don't believe in the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the Angel Michael hindu style.

Jesus is the only way since it hooks up the sin of the flesh through salvation and dying on the cross innocently. The only other way to be saved is to be a Jew because God still has a promise with Israel with them plus I think you need to have the right bloodline which tests prove they are of a certain leanage.

reply to post by The time lord

Jesus in the Koran is not Christ so he is not the same Jesus otherwise there is no need for a Koran,

Koran specifically says Jesus Christ, son of Mary. He denies that he is God in any way, and that God is all powerful and needs no ritual rigmarole to forgive sins.

Jesus is the only way since it hooks up the sin of the flesh through salvation and dying on the cross innocently. The only other way to be saved is to be a Jew because God still has a promise with Israel with them plus I think you need to have the right bloodline which tests prove they are of a certain leanage.

"I tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus." Paul to the Synagogue in Pisidion Antioch. (Acts 13:32) Either the promises are fulfilled or not. I believe Paul on the issue.

If you would like to discuss Dispensationalism and inerrancy of scripture upon which it claims to be based we should start a new thread. I already killed someone elses thread on a side track.

I am not going to compare a book with no Chronological order or and a History with another book that leaches off the light of Bible and says it witnessed something with one pair of eyes. Without the Bible no one would know what the Koran is speaking about because it spends too much time saying, yes it is or no it is not, you are a believer and you are not.

Likewise we don't need Muhammad telling us he the last seal when the last one was Jesus. The two just don't mix.



Acts 13

26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.'[c] 34The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:
" 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'[d] 35So it is stated elsewhere:
" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'[e]

36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

Text

[edit on 30-11-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
I remember you before.

The stuff about "who you are" is all dealing with being born of spirit. When that happens then you will understand that. Interestingly enough, you will also understand why the physical death isn't real, and why Jesus says do not fear those who can kill the body. Many things will not make alot of sense without being born of spirit.

Hmm… the stuff about “who you are” was the spark, that pointed me in the direction, that God was real, not sure if that is what makes people or me born of the spirit. Once again, I also understand why the physical death is not real but I don’t think I am born again because of that knowledge. I could be wrong of course…

Originally posted by badmedia
But it does sound to me like you aren't trusting yourself enough when you look externally for answers. I try to look externally for questions(I call them seeds), internally for answers.

That’s funny…no disrespect, because the questions, I am receiving are coming to me internally (I believe from God) and I have been trying to find the answers to them externally, by researching, talking with Christians etc. For example, in answer to the question “What Am I” the answer I finally arrived at, is that, “I am a part, of the living God”

It is difficult to trust the external information, when it does not resonate with the internal information. I have indeed found many answers to many things from this process but finding the understanding to these internal questions, has been something I have had to work at. I haven’t had the luxury of being given the understanding but I do feel that God has pointed me in the right direction on many occasions. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do have understanding in many areas, in fact a lot of what you have written, I understand and agree with.

I’m starting to lean towards the fact that a lot ,but not all, of the Christian doctrine, is wrong and that I do not trust it in it's entirety. I guess you could say I have given up on certain Christian doctrines but I have not given up on God because I know he is real.

Originally posted by badmedia
Externally, you will find every possible answer. It can't be trusted. If every person on this forum were to answer your questions, you would likely find every possible point of view on the question. Which one do you trust? All you can go off is what makes the most sense in understanding, and thus the real answer already came internally.

I hear what you are saying but at the same time, the very reason people join a forum or a site like this…is to search for answers to questions, share information and ideas, opinions etc. I guess like yourself, I don’t really trust men either but that doesn’t mean, I can’t take on board what they are saying and judge it for myself.

Also if everyone on this forum posts an answer to my question, I would like to think that a particular answer would stand out or that at least one type of answer, would appear more than the others. That doesn’t automatically mean it would be the truth, but it could mean something or lead to something.

Your are right though, the anwers do lie within us but sometimes it has to be awakened and this is normally done externally.

Originally posted by badmedia (from 3rd post)
But things just kept getting reinforced. As I doubted I asked questions and so forth to myself, and the answers would come in weird ways that would give me understanding. I would be wondering about something, and I might hear just a single line on a radio commercial that would answer me, or repeat the answer I thought was right. I was wondering about something one day, took a walk in the park and got an answer in nature. Things like that. I understand alot more about creation and such, and I have seen things beyond "time" and I can't even really explain it. In the end, I think everyone just needs to experience it for themselves.

Yes I absolutely believe this can happen, no doubt about it…
I suppose I am looking for little reinforcements that confirm the truth myself, as is everyone, on this entire site…

Speaking of reinforcements and signs…this clip really seemed to speak to me a few days ago …





- JC

And that is another reason I am not a christian. The entire sacrifice of Jesus is a lie. And you will only ever be able to quote Paul to the effect of the sacrifice.

Jesus never describes himself as a sacrifice. The closest he says to that effect is that he will lay down his life for men - and that he does do. But when you worship the sacrifice of Jesus and saying he washes your sin with blood, then you are rejoicing in the death of the truth on earth.

You are saying that the only way for you to live, is for the truth to die. But th only thing that lives when the truth dies is the lie. If this was not true, then why does Jesus(truth) need to come back to this world before evil is gone?

Jesus was murdered by the powers and authority of this world, so that they could keep their powers. And they have. They have turned Jesus into an idol to be worshiped, over the father that sent him and over the message and understanding that came with him.

They tell me that to believe in Jesus means to believe in the idol/symbolism. And that as long as they believe in that, the rest doesn't matter. Men follow that symbolism to their deaths committing all forms of sin in the process.

Jesus gives his life to people in this world because he knows that by telling the truth and so forth, the powers of this world would kill him. He does what he does despite this fact. That is his grace. Damn the consequences, he loved people enough that he did what he did despite it.

Matthew 9: 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He is quoting Hosea 6.

Hosea 6

5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

8Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.

Why does Christianity desire sacrifice, or think sacrifice was desired, over the knowledge of god and mercy?

Salvation is found in the life of Jesus, not in his death. He shows that it is better to die physically, than to break a commandment and commit sin. It's part of how he lived a sin free life.

If the sacrifice were true, then explain the rich man who comes to Jesus. Why doesn't Jesus tell that rich man that he has come to die for his sins? Jesus says it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven. But Christianity and Paul say otherwise. They accept that rich man outright and tell him he will go to heaven - so long as he gives a bit of that coin to the church - the replacement of god's authority by men.

You call him the son of god, and then make him your whipping boy. I want no part of that.

reply to post by Joecroft
I like that clip.

I wrote a poem in '96

Don't Worry

That prophet will be gone some day
then we'll be free to go our own way,
forgetting what he had to say.

Once we've forgotten everything but his name
then we'll be free to proclaim his fame.

If in our rhetoric we can keep him shod
then we'll be free to call him our God.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Hmm… the stuff about “who you are” was the spark, that pointed me in the direction, that God was real, not sure if that is what makes people or me born of the spirit. Once again, I also understand why the physical death is not real but I don’t think I am born again because of that knowledge. I could be wrong of course…

Born again is a figure of speech really. I didn't think of it as being "born again". I just kind of thought of it as realizing the truth about what is "me". I just seen the father was within and how that relationship worked.

Technically, all have already been born of spirit, in terms of the father being within them. Birth of the soul is the birth of the spirit, as the soul comes from the father(virgin birth, no equal to the father). If the father is not within someone, then they are just a robot, a soul-less being. Any understanding is beyond them, understanding itself is a function of the father within.

But what makes the difference there is when you come to realize and know it. On that day, you will know the father is within you, and that you and the father are one. That is what Jesus is talking about in terms of being born of spirit.

It is for that reason that I think everyone will eventually experience it. Maybe never in their life, but eventually. To find the father in your life is to find him early.

That’s funny…no disrespect, because the questions, I am receiving are coming to me internally (I believe from God) and I have been trying to find the answers to them externally, by researching, talking with Christians etc. For example, in answer to the question “What Am I” the answer I finally arrived at, is that, “I am a part, of the living God”

None taken, I can only speak from my own experiences. I know what you are talking about, and I understand why it seems that way. Questions do come internally, many do. I just try to look for questions I hadn't thought of externally is what I meant there. And sometimes those questions can be found in other peoples answers. But in the end you will start to realize that the real answers came from within.

How do you know which of the following equations are true?

1+1=2
4+4=8
3+2=0
49+2=51

Only by understanding. Understanding is a function of the father within, and is what provides the truth to all things. You know which of those is true based on understanding of math.

And as you examine the outside world, and you have equations and things proposed to you, then you are doing the same thing. If I say something that doesn't make sense, it isn't going to make sense because it doesn't fit your understanding. If 1 day it turns out that what I say does make sense, then what has changed? Only your understanding.

So for that reason, in the end the answers come from within. If something does make sense, then there is a reason for it. I think you get that.

It is difficult to trust the external information, when it does not resonate with the internal information. I have indeed found many answers to many things from this process but finding the understanding to these internal questions, has been something I have had to work at. I haven’t had the luxury of being given the understanding but I do feel that God has pointed me in the right direction on many occasions. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do have understanding in many areas, in fact a lot of what you have written, I understand and agree with.

We all have our limits. I certainly don't know everything, far from it. My entire perspective of even the known universe is immeasurably small. Not to mention getting into all that is possible. Barely a spec.

You have been given all the understanding you have, and all the understanding you need for this point in your life. It will come to you in time. It seems to me you got a pretty good head on your shoulders.

I’m starting to lean towards the fact that a lot ,but not all, of the Christian doctrine, is wrong and that I do not trust it in it's entirety. I guess you could say I have given up on certain Christian doctrines but I have not given up on God because I know he is real.

There is a reason why the death of Jesus didn't end things, and why he needs to come back.

I hear what you are saying but at the same time, the very reason people join a forum or a site like this…is to search for answers to questions, share information and ideas, opinions etc. I guess like yourself, I don’t really trust men either but that doesn’t mean, I can’t take on board what they are saying and judge it for myself.

Also if everyone on this forum posts an answer to my question, I would like to think that a particular answer would stand out or that at least one type of answer, would appear more than the others. That doesn’t automatically mean it would be the truth, but it could mean something or lead to something.

Your are right though, the anwers do lie within us but sometimes it has to be awakened and this is normally done externally.

Yes, confrontation brings about understanding. Life brings about understanding. As it says in proverbs, live and go in the way of understanding. I don't mean to downplay these things, I just worry that people will accept what other people say(myself included). If you just accept/believe someone, then you deny yourself understanding in the process(Psalm 82 - they accept the wicked, and thus do not understand).

Yes I absolutely believe this can happen, no doubt about it…

I suppose I am looking for little reinforcements that confirm the truth myself, as is everyone, on this entire site…

Speaking of reinforcements and signs…this clip really seemed to speak to me a few days ago …

I'll check out that video later. Wife is on me to go get something to eat.

The Old Testaments speaks about the spirit too, the only person missing from the Trinity even if you don't believe in it is the Son who was not born yet.

Zechariah 12

Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed
An Oracle
1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.
Text

(This is a prophecy of Jesus)

Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Text

The Spirit of the Old Testament;

Isaiah 32:15 Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
Text

Using of the Spirit and gifts.

Joel 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions

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[edit on 30-11-2009 by The time lord]