The "real" Reason for the Season

Hi Locomon--

I'm not sure you understand what I am doing here at all, unless you've studied Hebrew and Hagaddic Midrashic Legendary Expansions, and have a working knowledge of Galilean Aramaic and the Dead Sea Scroll material.

Also FYI here are the numbering of the 4 canonical council approved Greek Gospels, since you seem a mite confused on the topic:

l. The 1st Gospel ('according to Matthew' whoever he was)
2. The 2nd Gospel ('according to Mark' whoever he was)
3. The 3rd Gospel ('according to Luke' whoever he was)
4. The 4th Gospel ('according to John' whoever he was)

The 4th gospel ('John') has some very embarrassing statements placed into the mouth of the adversaries of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef, not 'Luke's' and not' Matthew's---'John's'...i.e. the 4th canonical gospel (not the 3rd)

l. 'WE were not born of Fornication, WE (at least) have ONE father !' (John 8:41)

2. 'Midrash The Scriptures and you will see: no prophet shall arise from the Galilee' (John 7:23-24)

3. 'Does not the scripture say that the Messiah the son of David must be born in Bethlehem of Judaea? also found in the 4th Gospel ('John') &tc.

Clearer now?

So..Locomon—
From what you say, you would rather hear about the (non Jewish) i.e. pagan origin of the solar cults which naturally celebrated the ‘birth of the sun god’ around December 22-27th each year…

You can see that the ‘Messiah’ of the Jews had Hebrew scriptures that equated him ‘in the Last Days’ with ‘the Sun’ (Malachi chapter 4: In that day shall Arise the Sun of Righteousness, with Healing in his Wings’

Also: the story in Joshua / Yehoshua chapter 10 of the book which bears his name in the OT in which (Joshua is in Gk. 'Iesous') commands the sun and the moon to stand still) one can see why if believers did not know or care to know the actual ‘historical’ date for the birth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef (they certainly had little interest in historical facts, but rather were more concerned with Midrashing their Scriptures for Divine Clues as to why their Messiah was executed) they would have been drawn to the very popular solar cults--

After all, the sun ‘dies and rises again’ not only every day, but also ‘every year’ (winter= death; spring=re-surrection) as with the Attis Cult (whose feast of Hilaria around March 21st celebrated his ‘resurrection’) and with the Mithras Cult (later merged with the Cult of Sol Invictus in the 3rd - 4th century AD) whose birthday was celebrated on December 25th.

The 3rd Gospel (‘Luke’) makes a mention of Yohanon bar Zechariah (aka John the Baptist) being born significantly 6-months before ‘Iesous’ in the story of Elizabeth and Zechariah--which is clearly a solar reference:

Compare this with the symbolic phrase placed into the Greek speaking mouth of John the Baptist in John 3:30 ‘he must increase, but I must decrease’) which shows that the poetry here is also making use of solar imagery (with a 6-month period of increase of light, 6 month period of decrease of light in the solar year) –

So...an argument COULD be made for Christian solar enthusiasts that the 4th Gospel is making a reference to December 25th (the date reckoned by ancient priests at which the ‘sun is reborn’, i.e. by noticing the first signs of an elongated shadow on their sun-dials---i.e. so that he may ‘increase’).

The image / idea of there being anticipated not ONE but TWO Messiahs in the earliest Nazorean (i.e. Jewish Messianic) Church-synagogues prior to AD 70 (that we see touted in the Dead Sea Scroll material) has one Messiah of Aaron and one of Israel-David-- and this idea of the TWO MESSIAHs may be at play here in the 3rd and 4th gospels' language (the Aaronid Messiah being ‘John the Baptist’, the Daviddic Messiah being R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) each taking turns in representing the waxing and waning sun throughout the year at 6-month intervals

Also: see the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite, aka The Book of Revelation, chapter 11 where we see 'the TWO OLIVE Trees which are the Messiahs standing before the whole land of Israel') taken from Zechariah chapters 4-6.

The Mass of Christ (Christ’s Mass = Christmas) was celebrated on the evening of our Dec 24th and the AM of 25 December from the 6th century onwards, and significantly, the Mass of John the Baptist was celebrated on the evening of June 24 (and morning of June 25) i.e. the solar opposite of Christmas on the solar calendar year of 365 days---so we can see solar pagan cults lying at the bottom of some of the verbiage in the 3rd & 4th gospel being played out in later Liturgical Mediaeval and current Christian practice by having the 'two messiah's being celebrated by their Festival Mass on the 'opposite' side of the annual solar calendar (June/December) .

Perhaps only the priests knew about these connexions though presumably persons who study this kind of esoterica might also have stumbled across these 'hidden' facts about Christmas &tc.

Whether this gives modern day Christians the automatic 'theological right' to celebrate the Mass of their Christ on the ‘birth-day of the Sun god(s)’ is another matter, however !



[edit on 18-11-2009 by Sigismundus]

Originally posted by Sigismundus
The 3rd Gospel (‘Luke’) makes a mention of Yohanon bar Zechariah (aka John the Baptist) being born significantly 6-months before ‘Iesous’ with the symbolic phrase (‘he must increase, but I must decrease’) which shows that the poetry here is making use of solar imagery (6-months of increase, 6 months of decrease in the solar year) –

I see the birth of John the Baptist at or around Rosh Hashanah (Hebrew New Year) which is celebrated in autumn (contra Passover for the birth of Jesju). John was the Baptist, cleaning our concious with a simple bath to "wash off our sins" and be "reborn", this is all Rosh Hashanah, when Jews confess their sins for the last year and cleanse themselves according to the Law. Rosh Hashanah occurs around Autumnal Equinox when day and night is of equal length, hence after this day, the day decrease, while at Jesju's birth around Vernal Equinox the days are increasing in length. See my thread called Jesjuah was born in March 6BC I just posted for my argumentation:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Sigismundus


Well, at least now you are referencing some of the things this thread intended to talk about. We are trying to talk about the "legitimacy" of christians celebrating the birth of Christ on the pagan birth of the sun god.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I have a belief that Jesus was born late summer/early fall, around the feast of trumpets. Take John's conception, which followed Zechariah's duties at the temple as High Priest in the order of Abijah. John's conception would have happened around June or July putting his birth 9 months later in march/april... the time of Passover. Jesus mentions John the Baptist being "Elijah" and Jews anticipated the return of Elijah to be on passover. This fits very well with when John was born. 6 months later, Jesus was born. 6 months after passover putting the birth of Christ in the Late summer, early fall holy day feasts between the feast of Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles or the Eighth Day. Most likely the feast of trumpets as it's symbolism announces the coming of the Messiah.

Just my take on the birth times of the messiah and His cousin.

Hi Locomon--

The whole issue here about the 'kingly' and 'priestly' messiah-type figures in 'Luke' (whoever he was) being literal 'cousins' is that it is probably not 'historically' true, but may fit more neatly into being 'theologically' (i.e. midrashically) true - and feeds into the idea current in the 1st century of there being TWO Messiahs (which is what we see of contemporary documents among the Dead Sea Scroll fragments) i.e. one Priestly Messiah of Aaron (e.g. R. Yochanon bar Zechariah aka John the Baptist) and one Kingly Messiah of Israel-David (e.g. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean, aka 'Iesous').

Interestingly both were executed for sedition in one form or another.

As you will discover from the canonical Greek 3rd Gospel ('Luke'), the story of Yochanon bar Zechariah involves 'John the Baptist' being born of the PRIESTLY Tribe of Levi (Zechariah was allegedly a Levetical priest in the 2nd temple of Herod) whereas R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean is allegedly of Daviddic descent (even Saul of Tarsus, who never met him in the flesh, but only in 'dreams and visions' like my cook, believed him to be 'of the tribe of Yehudah-Judah') -- and again, notice they are portrayed as being 6 months apart (cf: the gospel of 'John' chapter 3: he must increase by I must decrease) which smacks of solar sun-worship cloaked in Messianic terminology (cf: Malachi chapter 4: In that day shall arise the SUN of Righteousness, with HEALING in his wings...)

However, the problem, hisitorically, is that persons in 1st century Palestine that were born of Leveticial families only were allowed to marry other Levites, and the Judaean-Davidds for the most part married other Davvids (i.e. of the royal line of David) and usually those from the tribe of Judah, which was 'David's alleged own tribe (despite his paternal grandmother being a detested Moabite, whose issue therefore could 'never enter into the Congreation of Qol-Yisro'el. not even beyond the 10th Generation...')

Since the Levites DID NOT intermarry with the Davidds, if (Shock and Awe !) an unexpected 'pregnancy' should ever resilt from such a miscegenation of tribal identities, the child born from such an 'illicit union' would have been known in those days as a 'Mamzer' in Hebrew, i.e. a Bastard.

So IF in fact R. Yochanon bar Zechariah AND R. Yehoshua were linked by some illicit marriage bond between a JUDAEAN DAVIDDIC pretender and a LEVITICAL Priestly family, this would have been quite a scandal even in rural old Galilee.

A case could be argued therefore (to separate the Judaen blood off of R. Yehoshua) that the 'virigin birth' stories were an attempt to cover up this illicit union, and any claims of Mamzerism, which is the term used of YESHU in the later (albeit 'antagonistic' to say the least !) Talmudic writings c. 200 CE.

Just a little more food for thought for Freyas Day !

reply to post by Sigismundus


Seriously dude, I'm just using the bible and what it says. I feel like your posts are scareing any "would-be" posters from shareing their thoughts. I respect your point of view and your theological "food-for-thought" but I really don't care. I'm not trying to be ignorant but it's simply a thread to discuss biblical accounts vs. the adoption of a pagan holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ. All this other stuff you try to feed into it is just taking the theme way off course. Once again, I deeply respect your POV, and will defend anyone who speaks rudely against you but I'm sticking with the actual accounts recorded in the bible since it is indeed what I follow as a christian. Peace my friend.

Hi Locomon--

You (and others on this thread) will just have to excuse some of the apparent diversions from the main topic thread here, since it comes with (shall we say) a lot of 'baggage'...

I think the major issue with modern-day (especially 'fundamentalist' American) 'Christians' who only can read the 'bible' in English and often prefer to read the King James Version / KJV of their scriptures in a type of English no longer spoken or fully understood today) is that they have absolutley NO historical root understanding of the times when these works were first written or even 'basic background knowledge' of the terms and ideas contained and referred-to in the very texts they purport to believe 'every word' --

In other words, these persons (some are on this thread right now) fail to realise that they are reading very badly translated (and often fragmentary) texts originally cast in a foreign (and ancient, no longer spoken) tongue which was ITSELF (in the case of the New Testament) translated out of ANOTHER ancient tongue no longer spoken today, referring to images and a worldview which is pre-scientific and no longer in touch with what we call the 21st century (i.e. using an excorcist to drive out 'fever daemons' as a healing methodology (i.e. to drive away the cause of the sickness, i.e. evil or sin) is not necessarily the way we approach a person with a temperature today, &tc.

So the whole issue of Christians pretending to understand their belief system without delving very very very very deeply into 1st century Galilean Aramaic, 1st Century Koine Greek, Paleo Hebrew and pre-Mishnaic Aramaic Targum literature (upon which the New Testament Gospel material was built) is basically building a castle on quicksand...

Having said that, I can readilly see your point about 'sticking to the topic' of this thread which as you say has to do more with the pagan roots of the celebration of the 'Mass of Christ' (from the Latin word 'paganus' meaning 'village', i.e. referring to the non-converted, older pre-Christian religious views) -- my own input is to 'round out' whenever I can, the story with FACTS and try and enlighten here and there some of the persons on this thread whose own comments are sometimes shockingly mis-informed and jejune in even the very basic understanding of the 1st century world view which formed later 'Pauline Christian' dogma...

Unfortuntately for persons who like 'short answers,' the whole subject of discussing even basic religious Weltanschauungen ('world views') is that they come jam-packed with pre-conceptions and historical underpinnings which branch out into several fields all at once, including linguistics, archaeology, economics, ancient history, philosophy and magick, to name a few.

For example, the 'pagan' (i.e. pre-Christian) idea of a 'virgin birth' in the 2 gospel birth narratives (which do NOT match each other very closely) of course has parallels with the birth of Hercules from a virgin, or the birth of Socrates froma virgin, or the birth of Julius Caesar from a virgin (when he was declared a 'god' by the Senate in the 30s BCE, they had to make his birth virginal, so they could burn incense to him as a god in his own temple), ditto for Augustus and many of the later emperors who were worshipped in their own temples as Divine Sons of the Gods, or the virgin birth of Dionysius-Bacchus, or the birth of the sun god Mithras (Dec 25) from 'virgin rock' &tc are all natural pagan underpinnings, but it is interesting how the Greek Speaking Gospel Writers (whoever they were) STILL felt the need to use the Old Testament midrashically to make their Messiah's 'virgin birth story' stick i.e. they 'dressed up in haggadic midrashic fashion' Isaiah 7:11 to make 'almah' (Heb. 'young woman') which is NOT Heb. Bethulah ('virgin, never touched') into the Greek 'parthenos' (Gk: 'virgin') just so they could LATCH on to the idea of a miraculous birth and give it 'credence' for Greek Speaking Jewish Messianists in the Diaspora after the 1st Failed Jewish Revolt against Rome (cf: Josephus 'whose cult-followiing were forever feverishly looking for miracles, all the time, everywhere...').

The date of Christmas (The Mass of Christ) as it is celebrated by modern Christians echoes the solar deities all born on December 25th each year when the shadows started to get longer on the sun dials-- that much is clear and I don't think there is anyone left on this thread (at least!) who actually believes that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef ('Jeezuz') was physically born on December 25th using today's modern Gregorian calendar, but still there are alot of speculative discussions about when he would have been born (or when the Messiah was expected to be born, e.g. in September which is a high holy month for the Jews including feasts of Trumpets, New Year-Rosh HaShannah, Yom Kippur as well as the Feast of Tabernacles -Sukkoth) moreover 'in the Sign of the Virgin' (i.e. Virgo) which may well be another link for midrashic-haggadic (legendary) use of texts like Isaiah 7:14 which some Messianis communities considered to be 'referring to the Messiah' (or Gk: "christos").

This whole concept of Malachi chapter 4 as thought by Apocalyptic communities in the 1st/2nd century AD referring to the Messiah in the Last days has a lot of terms that are open to'midrashic treatment' (i.e. search out, squeeze out the meaning) e.g. the 'Sun' (key word) of 'Righteousness' (key word) rising (key word) with Healing (key word) in his wings' - and we see this midrashic tendenz all through the gospel narratives.

Anyone reading the gospel birth stories should know: the two stories in 'Matthew' and 'Luke' don't match each other; and that the two stories make HEAVY use of Jewish Midrashic Haggadic Legendary methodology from old testament texts - sometimes making use of the same 'source' text from which to draw their legendary expansions which many Christians today read as 'pure facts to be read soberly in the cold light of day...'

The kind of language used in the Birth Narratives is the same kind of language used in the Mystery Religions, of which 'the Mysteries of Christ' were just one of several dozen floating around in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and all of whom had some kind of resurrection saviour god at their centers...

reply to post by Sigismundus


So..... what is a short answer to what you ACTUALLY believe? Are you a christian or some other form of religion? I'm just trying to grasp what your "understanding" leads you to believe.

Hi Locomon--

I am just a disinterested observer who has a degree in Theology with a focus on the Dead Sea Scroll / intertestamental literature and from time to time I find mysefl commenting on what can be seen behind the received Judeo-Christian 'canonical' texts in antiquity and how they differ (often fundamentally) from modern 'Pauline-Chrsitian' belief systems.

I have my own personal universal-spiritual beliefs (as opposed to an organised Creed originally written in a foreign tongue no longer spoken) but these tenets (if you can call them) are far less narrowminded and more 'spiritually based' than the more modern monotheistic religious traditions as practiced today tha center around legalisms and outdated bourgeois moralities written by pre-scientific priesthoods of cults such as what eventually became YHWH and ALLAH ALONE cults...

There is no 'master race or chosen people ideology' or even 'saved' groups v. damned groups in my own Weltanschauung, and I do not support any firm apodeictic commands made up by priests purportedly worshipping middle eastern clan gods to control the daily lives of human beings whom I believe are being deprived of their true essence by organized religious groups up to this day).

Maybe you could call me a Spirtually-charged Scientific Agnostic Egalitarian who really does believe 'we humans (by which I treat male and female alike, i.e. as one) terran humans on this planet are indeed all one' and if the world could see beyond Jew v. Gentile or Muslim v. Infidel or 'saved' v. 'unsaved' (the old US v. THEM conundrum) maybe we could all start to treat each other (and our tiny dying planet) with a little ore respect (and less fear based hate) moving forward...

Especially in these days of more and more (ahem) 'stray' nuclear weapons running lose all over the place....

Fitzmyer states that Jesus was born on Sept. 11, 3 BCE.

Check his bio....he is considered the authority.

Originally posted by Alethea
Fitzmyer states that Jesus was born on Sept. 11, 3 BCE.

Check his bio....he is considered the authority.

I believe that was on the "Feast of Trumpets" which is my theory. Although I put His birth year at 4 BCE. Either way, that's a very reasonable date.

Groupies

Interestingly, the 17-year old Polycarp (who allegedly c. AD 104 met a feeble c. 94 year old 'apostle-elder' by the name of Yochanon--probably one of the 70 'apostoloi' of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean sent out 'two by two' to pre-announce the arrival of The Prophet before he actually showed up--sort of an 'advance press release' ) spoke with Iranaeus the Bishop of Lyons when Polycarp himself was an older man c. 140 AD

During this alleged interview, Polycarp is said to have told Iranaeus flat out that 'John' (who went by the name of The Elder') as an original follower of 'Iesous' in Jerusalem c. 36 AD (who may well have been the same person who was the mind behind the later Greek epistles 1, 2 and 3 'John') told him that R. Yehoshua was 48 years old when he was executed for armed sedition against the Maiestas of Rome which (c. AD 36) ) would have brought back the actual physical birth-date of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean to c. 12 BCE, which was the same year the new foundations for Herod's ReBuilt (englarged) 2nd Temple were being laid.


e.g. 'This temple has been in continual-construction for the past 46 years, and yet you claim to be able to tear it down and rebuild it [without hands] in 3 days?

to which an editor added: 'but he was speaking of the Temple of his Body' in other words, the writer/editor of the 4th canonical gospel was trying to convey the message that the physical body of 'Ieosus' was at that time (c. AD 34) 46 years old.

If 'John the Elder' was the actual person also behind at least SOME of the traditions written about in the canonical 4th Gospel (whoever wrote the final version is not known) we might have some clues ref: what Polycarp told the Bishop of Lyons

e.g. 'You aren't even 50 years old and yet you claim to have seen Avraham?'

Whether any of these statements have any 'historical' basis at all (or are just 'made up hagaddic midrashic legends' thrown together from various Messianic Hebrew texts) is not known, but some of the 'passion narrative' in the 4th gospel (which adds a lot of Aramaisms e.g. Gabbatha 'raised there' i.e. the Pavement, and the references to the Kidron Valley absent from the other muddled geographical details in the other canonical synoptic gospels of 'Matthew', 'Mark' and 'Luke', whoever they were) may have gone back to a real live person who may have witnessed part of the execution of his beloved Rabbi:

e.g. 'John' 19:34

''Then one of the soldiers standing by pierced his side with a sword, and immediately out gushed blood and urine (lit. 'water')"

To which some later editor added in the margin by way of a gloss in Greek in v. 35

"NB: HE that saw this for HIMSELF bore witness of it ..."

and another wrote underneath that phrase:

"Moreover WE KNOW that HIS testomony is the Truth, [and it is so] written that YOU might believe [it]."

Of course this statement of eyewitness testimony ONLY would applies to the blood and urine scene at the crucifixion in this place (notice how the writer of the 4th gospel chose to use 'water' since BLOOD and WATER (eucharist and baptism) were heavilly loaded theological symbols for this anonymous writer of the 4th canonical gospel, whoever he was--not the same Greek as in 1,2 and 3 Joihn however...)

The 3rd canonical Gospel's ('Luke') rather round figure 'now Ieous was around 30 years old when he began to preach' was only added because, as the Mishnah was later to claim, 'no man may be called Rabbi unless he is at least 30 years old...' and we do not know the actual year the historical ministry started or how long it lasted (the Apocalypse seems to indicate the Daniel-time frame of 1260 days in terms of length of the preaching, see Revelation chapter 11) but this might have been a combined time length of the TWO witnessess (e.g. "John the Baptist' and 'Iesous').

To me (and many modern scholars to-day) the testimony of Polycarp via Iranaeus makes more sense in terms of a birth year although we cannot be sure of what time of year (historically) that this R. Yehoshua was actually born...

The long awaited Jewish Messiah was supposed to be born in the Sign of the Virgin (Virgo) i.e. in September, which is the highest and holiest month of the entire year for the post Exilic Jews (which held at least 4 Holy Days in that same month: the Feast of Trumpets, the Feast of RoshHaShannah-New Year, the high holy Day fast of Yom Kippur, and the Feast of Sukkhot-Tabernacles)..but these expected 'theological birth details' of the long awaited Messiah might not have tallied with the actual historical person who lived and preached 'the Kingdom of Heaven' in the early part of the 1st century CE -- only to be executed for armed sedition at Passover in 36..at the 100th anniversary of the Roman Invasion (and 100 year Occupation) of Jerusalem by Pompey's ' troops.

Benevolent masters, you who seek even when logic has tossed and turned your view into a corner. Nothing is impossible. What we really celebrate every year around the darkest night, and why we resist any P t B.... Jesju was born under a pisces sign and in the month of pisces, and his most important signs all include fish, pairs of pisces or what not. He was Pisces.

FYI: I actually always believed that Jochannan was born on Midsummer, GGS I was baptised then. Twise! I said Rosh Hasj Hanough (since you are so proud of being correct, not you, but you, naigh, see you y.yyyy you, you are behind this aren't you?), but I meant his conception was as important as his birth and confirmations in advance *stolt skrvr sm f'n*, what you call prophecies....

Groupies

The fact that the Feast Day (i.e. Mass Day) for R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (aka 'Iesous') was held on December 25th (when the shadows on the sun dials start to INCREASE, cf: 'he must Increase')

Whereas correspondingly the Feast Day (i.e. Mass day) for Yohanon bar Zechariah (aka John the Baptist) is June 25th (when the shadows on the sun-dials start to DECREASE, cf: 'But I must Decrease')

This clearly echoes the Dead Sea Scroll idea of TWO messiahs (one kingly, Messiah ben-Joseph and one priestly Messiah ben-Aaron) re-echoed in The Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) chapter 11 with the figures of the TWO WITNESSES who must prophesy for a period of not less than (combined) 1260 days, matching The Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Daniel chapter 12--but it also links the SOLAR calendar to the Messiah (cf: Mithras, the 'Saviour of the World' who is seen at NOON (cf: the Book of Revelation: 'and lo, His face shone like the sun at NOON in its strength...') and it is this solar competitor to Christianity (Mithras) who is moreover flanked by 2 solar figures, one holding the Torch UP (Cautes) and the other holding the Torch DOWN (Cautopautes), representing the 2 solstices of the solar year).

Either way, it seems that solar-messianism was rooted in the pre-Christian tradition among the Dead Sea Scroll sect (cf: Malachi 4: 'And in that Day, shall ARISE the SUN of RIGHTEOUSNESS with HEALING in his wings...) which gives a pre-Christian (i.e. apocalyptic Jewish) colouring to the reasons why any Messiah figure would have a feast day on the 'birth day of the sun' when the 'shadows on the dial start to grow again' , reflecting the idea of a kind of 'death and resurrection' of the sun annually celebrated at what the Norse Asatru called 'Yule'.

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Groupies

The fact that the Feast Day (i.e. Mass Day) for R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (aka 'Iesous') was held on December 25th (when the shadows on the sun dials start to INCREASE, cf: 'he must Increase')

Jesju has his birthday soon. Every man on his post. I start tghe year at 25th. Milord seeks my beloveds' sources' pillows' wrinkles. 'Kels! 'charles?...

Originally posted by havok
I like this post. It makes you think.

We all know that the holidays (Easter and Christmas) are exploited for the "almighty dollar".

Im my opinion, society wants you to believe more in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny than Jesus Christ or God himself. Even for a child, the lure of both entities (claus and bunny) is way more appealing than some boring religion. Candy and presents? Come on!

If someone (or something) was trying to veer people away from God, it would be easy. Get society to worship the "money" aspect of things.

Well said Havoc. I have actually heard some people say that they need to "buy Christmas". As in do all the shopping and spend all their money for stuff they don't even really need most of the time.

No wonder Christmas is becomeing more and more secular.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by elaine]

reply to post by elaine


Reminds me of some scripture....

1 Timothy 6

9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


Christmas is full of idolatry along with pagan customs. Once again I give you Jeremiah 10 for the pre-christmas worship of the evergreen tree....

1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
2 Thus says the LORD:


“ Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
5 They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”


Makes me wonder how christians can still celebrate.... or at the minimum, put up a christmas tree after reading that if indeed they are true followers of the bible.

Originally posted by MrRoboto
Pretty much all Christian religious Holidays and traditions are based on archaic pagan celebrations and traditions. What better way than to enforce christianity, then by covering up a pre-existing religion!

I completely agree with this post. The 25th of December is celebrated as 'the day of no sun' in Pagan religion, also much of what western people use to celebrate 'Christmas' is mainly Pagan.
e.g.
-Misletoe, was (and still is) a drug used by druids to help with fertillity.
-having a Christmas Tree in the house has only been around in the UK for just over 100years as it was first introduced by Prince Albert who brought the tradition over from Germany when he married Queen Victoria. Poeple only started to have one for themselves when a picture printed of the royal family standing around a hugely lavished conifer!

and why is it that most of the western world recieves gift on Christmas day and children in Spanish countries have to wait till the 6th of Jan (el Dia de Los Reyes - Day of the Kings) when it was thought that this was the day the three wise men (kings) acctualy showed up?