Here is a disturbing Bible quote..... You have to see this!

You all know that I love putting this stuff out there for you to stew around in your brains. This is for all the literalists. (Gotta love Deuteronomy).

Now, among a few others, I believe this verse is referring to a slave. Well, at least how to claim one......

Deuteronomy 15:17; then you shall take an awl, and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.

bible.cc...

I was looking at that...and wondered what in the heck an awl was. Does anyone here know what an awl is?!?!?!?!?! Well I took the liberty in finding out for you.

AWL
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English al, from Old Norse alr; akin to Old High German Ala awl, Sanskrit ArA
: a pointed tool for marking surfaces or piercing small holes (as in leather or wood)

Damn...thats like an ice pic for crying out loud....like I said...gotta love Deuteronomy. Anyway, I went to find some pictures of an "Awl" because I was curious.

www.orbitals.com...

Now, amazingly I found this too. I had to contain the laughter just so I could copy the length...

www.thebiblerevival.com...
(Look at the images on the page)

Well, I just thought I would share. Have a good day!

Deuteronomy 15:12-18
12 "If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
13 "And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
14 "you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
15 "You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
16 "And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
17 "then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your maidservant you shall do likewise.
18 "It shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then the LORD your God will bless you in all that you do.
(NKJ)

When you read more of the text you see that the slaves were treated quite well. They let them free after 6 years, and when freed aren�t left empty handed. With livestock, wine, whatever comes from a threshing floor, which is given liberally.
But if the slave doesn�t want to leave because he loves his master and his house, the master will honour his decision. So the master performs the ritual of piercing the slave�s ear with an awl. This ritual is consensual. The slave was a free man, but chose to stay with his master.



[Edited on 19-5-2004 by StationsCreation]

Originally posted by StationsCreation
But if the slave doesn�t want to leave because he loves his master and his house, the master will honour his decision. So the master performs the ritual of piercing the slave�s ear with an awl. This ritual is consensual. The slave was a free man, but chose to stay with his master.

Whats wrong with just saying 'I like it here, I'll stay - but I'd rather you didn't nail my ear to the door'

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Pisky]

Originally posted by Pisky

Whats wrong with just saying 'I like it here, I'll stay - but I'd rather you didn't nail my ear to the door'

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Pisky]

Well maybe that's just the way things were done back in the day.

Originally posted by Pisky
Whats wrong with just saying 'I like it here, I'll stay - but I'd rather you didn't nail my ear to the door'

That's what I'd be saying.

Yeah, I guess your right. I mean keeping slaves for only six years then releasing them is so humaine. I guess since Dueteronomy is one of the king flip floppers in the Bible, it is OK for them to drive an awl through a slaves ear. Everything is OK. It makes it all better. So stationscreation, when are you going to go get your slaves and stick an awl in their ear?


Tell me, why is it that you don't own slaves....more specifically, why is it that americans don't own slaves?


Deuteronomy..chapter 21

A man gets murdered in a field and we can't figure out who did it...what do we do???? We cite the Bible. Clearly, we are supposed to round up the elders at the nearest cities...grab a cow from each city, and chop the heads of the cows off in the place where the deceased was found. I mean...what else would we do...you know?

Why is it that we don't sacrifice cows to God anymore Mr. StationsCreation??


[Edited on 5/19/2004 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Why is it that we don't sacrifice cows to God anymore Mr. StationsCreation??

I just simply explained the verse this thread is for by reading the surrounding verses, nothing controversial. I just posted on what it said.

Didn't expect that.

Why's this bible stuff vex you so much, you do indeed post alot on it, it's always interesting though.

If you really want to know the answer to your cow question, I could tell you, but you've already decided that its wrong.

These verses are the answer:

Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
(NKJ)

Hebrews 13:20
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(NKJ)

Jesus was the fulfilment of the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. A covenant that was different to the fathers.

These laws for slaves are types and shadows of things to come...Christ. He came in the flesh as servant to God, he gained a wife and children in His servitude (the Church) and He didn't want to leave them alone and helpless and wanted them with Him so He was pierced for our transgressions, nailed to the cross, in humble submission to His master.

Thanks Seapeople!

Always eager to hear the "LIVING WORD" as it surely applies just as much to life today as it ever did.

I stopped eating Osprey and Eagles a looong time ago so I could get to heaven.

Hey I have an idea for when you get bored.
Why not just find some phrase in the bible, take it out of context, don't bother to work it out and post it on ATS as some terrible secret?

An awl is the punch used to put holes in leather.

By making a hole in the ear its sign, accepted by the person, that they are your servant.

Servants were sometimes desired positions as the person got food and accomodation, just like a worker in our capitlistic society today.

So if you went to work for a person back then the hole would be seen as a type of agreement. Sometimes people worked for another for a period of time as well to pay off debt.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Hey I have an idea for when you get bored.
Why not just find some phrase in the bible, take it out of context, don't bother to work it out and post it on ATS as some terrible secret?

An awl is the punch used to put holes in leather.

By making a hole in the ear its sign, accepted by the person, that they are your servant.

Servants were sometimes desired positions as the person got food and accomodation, just like a worker in our capitlistic society today.

So if you went to work for a person back then the hole would be seen as a type of agreement. Sometimes people worked for another for a period of time as well to pay off debt.

That is exactly what I do...wow Mr. Moderater...you are good! I definitely take verses out of the bible and throw them out here....out of context. I have severe problems with people and their hard fast literal interpretation of the bible beliefs. Literal....has no context.

So, you want me to take some things out of context from the bible? Jesus approached a fig tree in the New Testament....... Anyone know this story? He was hungry and wanted some figs. When he got to the fig tree...it had no figs, because, in the words of Jesus Himself, "it was not fig season". He got a little upset (something that I was under the impression was a sin in itself). He condemned the poor out of season fig tree....to wither away. Now, for all you literalists, tell me, how long did it take for that tree to wither? Was it immediate? Did it take a few days? Just let me know....you may want to consult Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John......

(Not to mention your own common sense....I mean, Jesus said himself that it was not fig season.....why get angry?)

I know its out of context........

As far as the quotes from Jerimiah, that is the first time ANYONE HAS EVER said anything to me indicating that they might have knowledge of the Bible. Clearly you know more than me regarding the Bible. You still must concede my point, that the literal interpretation of the Bible is flawed.

But that wasn't your point, it was obvious that you wanted to show the "cruelty" of the Bible. Come on now lets not grasp for straws here, you have some valid points, but accept defeat when you are beaten and respect the winner.

Originally posted by infovacume
But that wasn't your point, it was obvious that you wanted to show the "cruelty" of the Bible. Come on now lets not grasp for straws here, you have some valid points, but accept defeat when you are beaten and respect the winner.

I have shown the cruelty of the Bible, and I gave credit where credit was due. Unfortuantely, you and your 160 IQ were not the one who defeated me.

Didn't say I was smart ass, and cruelty is in the eyes of the beholder, therfor a opinion, so you may have showed your opinion , but nothing else.

Originally posted by StationsCreation
These verses are the answer:

Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
(NKJ)

Hebrews 13:20
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(NKJ)

Jesus was the fulfilment of the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. A covenant that was different to the fathers.

Another example of someone using scripture to support their OPINION. You should have kept going in your quote...
Jer 31:34-and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother saying: Know the lord for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest.."
If Christianity (jesus) was fulfillment of this "new" covenant then no man should need to be told about the lord anymore. Yet christian preachers are doing just that. This "new" covenant hasn't been fulfilled yet. Jesus didn't fulfill it. Especially for you literalists. This verse is only mentioning jesus if your a christian and INTERPRETING it as such.
Most importantly, the hebrew word (chadashah) being translated "new" here can also be translated renewed. It comes from a root meaning refreshed. In 31:33 he's still referring to the Torah, not exactly a totally new covenant.
Seapeople, Jeremiah 7:22-23 would be a good verse showing these cows were never supposed to be sacrificed. Of course, it also shows god changes his mind about what he wants, which is a contradiction...

[Edited on 21-5-2004 by KSoze]

Fig trees bear fruit BEFORE the leaves come out

PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS ! He ANSWERED the fig tree.

The fig tree was saying to Him by it's leaves...look, I have fruit...but there was none! The fig tree was cursed. It tells us all that if we proclaim faith but bear no fruit...we are cursed.

The word says...IMMEDIATELY the tree withered.

Enough said?

Originally posted by KSoze

Another example of someone using scripture to support their OPINION.

[Edited on 21-5-2004 by KSoze]

My Opinion?

This is what the Apostle who wrote the book of Hebrews taught. It's not just my opinion.

Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He(Jesus) is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(NKJ)

First off there is a distinction between the two covenants, being referred to as �First� and �Second�, �a better covenant�, �new� and �old�. Plus it says in the Jeremiah quote, �not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers�. So yes it is a different covenant. Not simply renewed.

The word �new� in Jeremiah is as follows:

H2319 From Jeremiah 31:31
châdâsh
BDB Definition:
1) new, new thing, fresh
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong�s Number: from H2318
Same Word by TWOT Number: 613a

The word which is related to châdâsh(H2319) is châdash(H2318). Notice the accent on the �a� in the second word is not there, but is in the first one, they�re two different words. The second word(H2318) can mean renewed, but not the one used in Jeremiah 31:31(H2319), which means new, new thing, fresh.

H2318
châdash
BDB Definition:
1) to be new, renew, repair
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to renew, make anew
1a2) to repair
1b) (Hithpael) to renew oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong�s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 613

And the word used in Hebrews for �new� covenant tends to support my answer:

G2537
καινός
kainos
Thayer Definition:
1) new
1a) as respects form
1a1) recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
1b) as respects substance
1b1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer�s/Strong�s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 3:447, 388

Plus Hebrews 8:13 testifies to the fact that �In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.� How could Jesus make the first covenant obsolete if He didn�t usher in the second new covenant.

So my original answer is still correct.

I didn't say it couldn't be translated new, I just said its possible its reNEWed. One doesn't need strongs definitions because the interpretation doesn't depend on this word.
You fail to look at verses 34 just like I said. If this "new" covenant is referring to jesus then how come christians are still spending millions of dollars TRYING to convert the world. Universal knowledge of god as prophesied here has not happened, and it did not happen during the time of jesus either.
Christians have been pulling this out of context and twisting the words around to support christ. If jesus instituted this new covenant mentioned here then no teaching would need to be done, universal knowledge of god would abound. Now, this doesn't disprove jesus but its not referring to his first appearance either.
The prophecy is addressed to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Both of which were scattered during the time of jesus.
The Torah is everlasting (atleast thats what the TanaKh says) and there is no new covenant in the sense that the law has been destroyed. A new covenant doesn't necessarily imply a new salvation program anyways. The word covenant (brit in hebrew) often means just a promise.
If you think otherwise, then how did jesus respond when someone asked him how to recieve eternal life. I'm not asking how Paul responded, only jesus. He made it very clear.
You assume the author of Hebrews is an apostle, you don't know...The writers of the NT show numerous examples of not being able to even quote from the word of god right. Jeremiah 31:32 reads, "My covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto to them" while Hebrews reads "because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them"...the hebrew word used here means husband not disregard...if the NT writer is an apostle then he is changing words to fit his message.

Bravo Soterion, thats a great explanation.

Originally posted by SOTERION 5
Fig trees bear fruit BEFORE the leaves come out

PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS ! He ANSWERED the fig tree.

The fig tree was saying to Him by it's leaves...look, I have fruit...but there was none! The fig tree was cursed. It tells us all that if we proclaim faith but bear no fruit...we are cursed.

The word says...IMMEDIATELY the tree withered.

Enough said?