It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why? (On Health Care)

page: 1
1

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:34 PM
link   
When a sink drain springs a leak you don't tear down the house, dig up the whole drainage system and rebuild everything. You fix the leak.

We don't need to spend trillions on an all encompassing plan and further bankrupt our nation to fix what amounts to a few leaks. We need to fix the leaks.

Tort reform to stop the law suit madness.

Open competition with no artificial borders at state lines legislated to reward special interests.

Regulation to remove the pre-existing condition nightmare.

Prosecute those who game the system.

Government funded health care ONLY for those who can not pay themselves and nobody else.

Insurance pools or co-ops to increase the buying power of small business and individuals.

Nothing else is needed or desirable. Everything else is simply pandering to special interests or members of tiny groups of people who want to completely change the country and control everyone. Don't let them fool you. It is all about control to force you to believe and do what they want you too. It is not about freedom.

Government has never successfully run a business without massive waste and fraud. Not once in its history has it done that. To think they can do it now is delusional.

Ask yourself why exactly has neither Party ever done the simple common sense things I listed above? They are not dumb. They know what is needed and what is not needed.

I'm all for health care reform but we don't need to let ourselves be further controlled by our government. Yes some need help and everyone should have good health care. No we don't need to flush our system down the toilet of history to accomplish that.

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue. When they treat it as such, people need to understand its all about control. The government is responsible for what we have now, which is a system controlled by how many votes and how much money the special interests can divvy up to their respective bought and paid for politicians.

We need to ask ourselves -

Why are attorney's allowed to file a constant barrage of frivolous law suits and get ridiculous settlements helping to drive up the costs? Could it be they have the politicians in their hip pockets and that most politicians are attorneys?

Why is there artificial borders that Insurance companies can not cross and offer their products for better prices? Could it be they buy these borders by buying politicians?

Why do Insurance companies charge one group of people a higher price for identical services than they do another? Why are they not mandated to charge everyone the same and make it a true pool? Could it be they have also bought politicians?

Why does the government want to take over the parts of health care that are not broken and are working instead of just fixing what is broken? Could it be that they want more control over our lives?

Why is a special interest group, a union called SEIU being given complete access to the White House and Congress and even being allowed to orchestrate what is in the health care plans? Why don't they care what the other 300 million of us want who do not belong to SEIU? Why is SEIU more equal than us? SEIU did not run for office and yet they have more power than any Senator; why is that?

Why are we not being allowed to read the actual language of the Bills and to comment before they are voted on? Do they think we are to stupid to read them or is it that they have things they want to hide?

Why do politicians vote on Bills they don't understand or have not even read simply because their respective Party leaders tell them too? Why would they do that? Is that what they are paid to do? Or are they paid to represent us?

These are the "Why's" I keep asking myself and to me the answers become clearer and clearer.

For those who don't know me, before you respond with what you think the answers are, I'm neither an R or D and I ask you not label me falsely. I'm all for health care reform but I want it in a common sense way not poisoned by Partisan Politics. It is way to important to be bastardized by being politicized and I'm equally angry at both Parties behavior in this important debate. I pray for intervention by whatever honest people currently serve in DC although I doubt there are many. I'd rather see this put off for a while than see a massive economy destroying special interest driven plan now.

Where am I wrong and why?

[edit on 10/13/2009 by Blaine91555]




posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:47 PM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


In todays politics bills are pushed and passed to appease the different pimps that runs our politicians in Washington, right now America should have come to the conclusion that we don't have representation in government have no had one in many, many decades.

Wait when the government trusting subjects realized that is not such thing as a free ride or cheap options.

This nation is already in the verge of something and more bad news is going to tip the cup.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Blaine91555
When a sink drain springs a leak you don't tear down the house, dig up the whole drainage system and rebuild everything. You fix the leak.

We don't need to spend trillions on an all encompassing plan and further bankrupt our nation to fix what amounts to a few leaks. We need to fix the leaks.

Tort reform to stop the law suit madness.

Open competition with no artificial borders at state lines legislated to reward special interests.

Regulation to remove the pre-existing condition nightmare.

Prosecute those who game the system.

Government funded health care ONLY for those who can not pay themselves and nobody else.

Insurance pools or co-ops to increase the buying power of small business and individuals.


I find it rather endearing that you don't consider your proposal "tearing the house down". I do, but that's not to say it's bad.

Still, I think you, and almost everyone else, is missing the big health care picture by framing the debate in these terms.


Nothing else is needed or desirable. Everything else is simply pandering to special interests or members of tiny groups of people who want to completely change the country and control everyone. Don't let them fool you. It is all about control to force you to believe and do what they want you too. It is not about freedom.

Government has never successfully run a business without massive waste and fraud. Not once in its history has it done that. To think they can do it now is delusional.


I'm of the impression that any group which can not conduct said business, is also inept and insufficient to regulate said industry.

And to be frank, your ideas are pandering to the other side of the coin, but still the same end-game.


Ask yourself why exactly has neither Party ever done the simple common sense things I listed above? They are not dumb. They know what is needed and what is not needed.

I'm all for health care reform but we don't need to let ourselves be further controlled by our government. Yes some need help and everyone should have good health care. No we don't need to flush our system down the toilet of history to accomplish that.


I'm confused, you are against government control, but yet suggest it as part of the solution to curbing the insanity.

How do you reconcile that?


We need to ask ourselves -

Why are attorney's allowed to file a constant barrage of frivolous law suits and get ridiculous settlements helping to drive up the costs? Could it be they have the politicians in their hip pockets and that most politicians are attorneys?


Answer - in a land of billions of laws, all legal conclusions are possible given the correct reasoning. This will not change with MORE laws, but rather fewer laws.


Why is there artificial borders that Insurance companies can not cross and offer their products for better prices? Could it be they buy these borders by buying politicians?


Answer - Because we allow people to live in states that apply government directly proportional to what the people ask for. This is to our benefit if we decide to see it like that.

The solution to your issues lies in that.


Why do Insurance companies charge one group of people a higher price for identical services than they do another? Why are they not mandated to charge everyone the same and make it a true pool? Could it be they have also bought politicians?


Same reason life insurance is more when you are 75 and smoked for 40 years you get charged more; because you cost more. That's business and life isn't always fair.


Why does the government want to take over the parts of health care that are not broken and are working instead of just fixing what is broken? Could it be that they want more control over our lives?


Because that's what government does. Government only has one tool and always has: Force.

It can not do anything other than that. To increase power you must increase your capacity to exhibit force.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:59 PM
link   
reply to post by marg6043
 


I agree Marg. I'm not quite ready to join the doom and gloom crowd however but we do need to stop the bickering and come together if we want it to change. The old premise of "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" is still a true statement.

It is clear to me now that all along the greatest power they hold over us is keeping us divided. If we ever come together, they know we will retake control and they will be nothing more than the public servants they should be.

The real problem is how do we get people to lay aside their differences long enough to take back our country? I don't want to move to another country that will end up being the same. I don't want to force my beliefs on others. I just want to be left alone to live my life as freely as possible. I do understand we must have laws and those who enforce them, but how do we control those who do the enforcing?

There is no full answer I'm sure. But I see this as being very much like the sixties. We recovered from it for a time only to see ourselves slip back down that hill and we have to climb it yet again.

What angers me the most is most answers are obvious and many problems would be easy to fix if only we could get past the Partisan madness and work together. We will never succeed fully but it can be better than it is.

Health Care is no small matter and it should not be something that is rushed into without serious and honest debate. The honest debate part is the real issue. Now that the politicians are in campaign mode full time, it makes it even harder.



[edit on 10/13/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 06:27 PM
link   
Regulate the insurance companies. They are the ones who make all the money out of the health care system. Whether it's on taking premiums but not paying for treatment, denying claims based on arbitrary loopholes.
The comment on the frivolous lawsuits is well aimed. The liability insurance premiums are forcing health care costs through the roof.

Think how financial institutions made their money - only to really screw up the economy.
That's exactly what the insurance companies are doing/have done to the health system.

Here's one: Americans do not live longer than people in nations with universal health care.

Why not? Surely with a health care system that is lauded as the best in the world, and all these specialist doctors there should be some benefits.
The benefits are going into the pockets of the insurance companies.
You're not living longer.
You're not in better health.
You're more worried about costs/health.
You're working longer hours.
You're being fleeced.

Ever see pictures/film from - say - France? Where everyone is leisurely drinking coffee at a sidewalk cafe, strolling to work, smoking, drinking wine?
They live longer.
They are just as successful/wealthy.
They don't stress as much.
They are likely healthier (less stress, you see?).
They know that if they get ill a doctor will visit them (oh, yes), and if they are really ill they will go to a hospital and get fantastic treatment.

Don't buy all the "waiting list" stuff. Unless you have actually experienced it first hand, you are likely being fed misinformation indirectly by......you guessed it...an insurance company.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Badgered1
 


I guess you have not read the health care bill we got, right>

First is not free, is not government run and is not universal.

Second, private insurance still rule and now is mandatory for people to purchase their crap still.

Yes, they already warn us the consumers that we will be facing higher premiums because now they have to absolve withing the 40,000 million plus of those that now health care can not deny due to pre existing conditions.

We are screw as health care run private companies is still going to be crappy and now a lot cheaper with cheaper run care.

If you think that we are to live longer with cheaper care think twice.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

I find it rather endearing that you don't consider your proposal "tearing the house down". I do, but that's not to say it's bad.


I see it more as a renovation and each item as a leak to be fixed or a door to be replaced.


And to be frank, your ideas are pandering to the other side of the coin, but still the same end-game.


It is impossible to have a discussion without some part of what we say agreeing with one side or the other. It does not mean a person is pandering. If you see merit to idea's from both sides, a person will always be thought to be siding with one side or the other due to the prejudices the others bring to the debate. I need not attack either side to discuss the issue.



I'm confused, you are against government control, but yet suggest it as part of the solution to curbing the insanity.

How do you reconcile that?


That is a false conclusion based on your personal prejudices. You are trying to pigeon hole me into one point of view or another. I am not anti-government. It is common sense we need laws and regulations to have a civil society. We do not need however people in power controlled by special interests who do not have our best interest at heart.

When we categorize one another we make honest debate impossible.


- in a land of billions of laws, all legal conclusions are possible given the correct reasoning. This will not change with MORE laws, but rather fewer laws.


In a way you are pointing out the exact same thing I am. We actually agree in that we need less laws. We need more effective and fair laws. The quickest way to put an end to the ambulance chasers is to simplify the law and remove the loopholes they use.

One of the biggest lies going is that laws need to be complex or written in a way that not everyone can understand. It is a bald faced lie to protect the attorneys ability to empty our wallets. Most cases other than criminal cases should not even require an attorney. Courtroom trickery could be eliminated easily and to say otherwise is yet another lie.



Answer - Because we allow people to live in states that apply government directly proportional to what the people ask for. This is to our benefit if we decide to see it like that.

The solution to your issues lies in that.


Since anything that encourages competition reduces costs and benefits customers it is not exactly hard to see that the only reason it is, as it is, is pandering to special interests for dishonest reasons. I suppose the only real solution is full transparency in government so every time they make such a decision their backsides are hanging out in the wind for everyone to see. The ability to hide what they are doing is a written invitation for them to make decisions to benefit themselves and not us whether it is federal or local government.


Same reason life insurance is more when you are 75 and smoked for 40 years you get charged more; because you cost more. That's business and life isn't always fair.


Not really. If it was a genuine pool with the risk shared by all, no matter age or behavior, it could be cheaper for everyone. We would pay the same from birth to death no matter who we are and there is no way that would not benefit us. The only reason we see this debate is people can not see past their own prejudices to understand how it could be. Without shared risk the whole concept of insurance is a farce.

Why do you think they encourage this particular debate? Who do you think it benefits for us to constantly be segregating ourselves based on one issue or another. Racism will never be gone as a tool to control us. It will only be replaced with hatred for fat people, hatred for smokers, hatred for meat eaters and whatever other form of hate they can find to control you and me with.

Then they will use this hate to justify picking some peoples pockets more than others. For instance smokers have paid in more in extra taxes than their health care costs for decades now, so why the lies? To divide us and justify their having to pay for health care twice? It would seem so. Why do people go along with it? It benefits them and that's all they care about.



Because that's what government does. Government only has one tool and always has: Force.

It can not do anything other than that. To increase power you must increase your capacity to exhibit force.


Or, serve the people and do the jobs they were elected to do. Just because it is one way now does not mean it MUST be that way. Fatalism is giving up. I don't buy into that argument. You do frame the problem very clearly however.

It is NOT the governments job to hide what they are doing or who is buying them.

It is NOT the governments job to pass unjust laws or to interfere in a way that increases the burdens on us on purpose.

It is NOT the governments job to give special favors to groups who buy them.

It is NOT the governments job to hide things from us and lie to us.

It is NOT the governments job to lie and pander to get elected. In fact they should be tried for fraud when they do.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Badgered1
 


There is an honest component to that even though you are right in the fact that argument is misused.

I had the misfortune of competing with Canadian Patients in a city near the Canadian border which was very real. It was a holiday weekend and I injured and ankle badly. I could not get into a clinic for treatment until the Canadian holiday was over as the entire cities medical system was overwhelmed by Canadians taking all the appointments every Canadian holiday weekend. Even the day after when I finally got in most cars in the lot had Canadian plates.

It was the Orthopedic Surgeon who saw me who told me he was overwhelmed every Canadian holiday, not some partisan making a point.

I paid for it because even now I have trouble with that ankle as I did not get help in time even though I had plenty of money to pay. No MD was available because of the Canadians pouring over the border. If there is no reason, why did they do that?

Then about ten years later while traveling across Canada, I met a man in White Horse in the Yukon. We got into this topic. He was working at a high paying job and developed a hernia. He had to wait 18 months to get what is considered elective surgery and could not work for about 20 months all together. I highly doubt it would have cost more than a couple of months wages in the US to have this simple surgery and yet it cost him 20 months wages.

I won't mention the young lady I met who thought the entire US was completely denuded of forest and wildlife and could not be convinced otherwise because she saw it on TV


You see there is merit to both sides of that debate, but once again they use it to divide us.

You and I are clearly not that far apart here.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:39 PM
link   
reply to post by marg6043
 


We should not be surprised. The whole thing is bastardized to garner votes, money and power. If that were not true the votes would never be along Party lines.

Nobody has read the language of the Senate Bill. The House Bill is pretty much meaningless as the final will look nothing like it.

What upsets me the most is the concept of punishment. It is insane to think many will not simply pay the fine which is far cheaper than the insurance.

They don't think the American People are fools. They know we are. While everyone is worried about which celebrity is sleeping with who they know they do as they wish.

I have this image in my head of the entire Senate calling each other and planning who will vote which way to pretend they give a damn about you or me. In my mental image they all agree to vote Party Line to make sure we are so busy hating each other we don't notice they are all really on the same page. Perhaps they flip coins or throw dart at a dart board, but I can't help but think the division is fake.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:42 PM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


I read you frustration, we are not along, is many like us frustrated in this nation with what is going on.

I feel so powerless and you are right our government knows it too.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 08:52 PM
link   
reply to post by marg6043
 


You and I are people who often disagree, but we can still debate without animosity and I appreciate that. On this subject I think most of us are closer than we realize. Of course there are irrational people who are so myopic they can not see the forest for the trees; who will guarantee we never come together without any encouragement from the government to do so. It is just their nature or due to youth.

Yes, as long as most of us are blinded to what they are doing by their encouraging or even causing us to separate into camps, we will never win and they of course know that.

There does not need to be any Illuminati or Grand Conspiracy, in fact I doubt there is. It is simply the time tested methods used by those in power, who covet more power and who realize how to control the masses that keeps us down. That and our own gullibility.

Most rational people know that the medical care system is broken and want it fixed. It is a shame we have let our halls of Congress be filled with such divisive people and be controlled by evil people.

We have nobody to blame but us. We keep allowing it to happen. Mostly we allow it because they trick us into fighting among ourselves and continue this travesty we call the Two Party System. Until and unless we reach the point of maturity where each candidate runs on their own merit, this will continue to be thorn in our sides. They could give us a fair system, free of corruption anytime they wish.

It is coming home to roost however. The Independent voter now dominates the playing field. That is a good thing for all of us. Now if we can just get genuine transparency and legal recourse against politicians who lie to get their jobs. In other words, simple accountability to the people who give them the power.

This is the sixties all over again. We will survive and come out of this better than we were before. It is what makes us who and what we are.

When they started labeling ordinary working people asking questions as crazy or controlled, they made a strategic error I think. Both sides have revealed their hands to us, showing us how the game is really played. Those of us who lived through these times before have not forgotten and we won't give up. We know the power of the masses.

The next protest they see will mirror the makeup of the average American community. The next time millions show up on the National Mall, a mixture of Right, Left and everything in between, they will have no choice but to clean up their acts until a new generation when it starts all over again. We are living far longer now which means there are many more of us with the insight to see what is going on. We have seen this all before.

OK
I'm off my soapbox. It feels good sometimes to put it down in words just to see if it makes sense.



posted on Oct, 14 2009 @ 08:06 AM
link   
Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Badgered1
 


I guess you have not read the health care bill we got, right>

First is not free, is not government run and is not universal.

Second, private insurance still rule and now is mandatory for people to purchase their crap still.

Yes, they already warn us the consumers that we will be facing higher premiums because now they have to absorb within the 40,000 million plus of those that now health care can not deny due to pre existing conditions.

We are screw as health care run private companies is still going to be crappy and now a lot cheaper with cheaper run care.

If you think that we are to live longer with cheaper care think twice.


[edit on 14-10-2009 by marg6043]

[edit on 14-10-2009 by marg6043]



posted on Oct, 14 2009 @ 09:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by Blaine91555
I see it more as a renovation and each item as a leak to be fixed or a door to be replaced.


That's a mighty big leak then, but I'll take this at face value.


It is impossible to have a discussion without some part of what we say agreeing with one side or the other. It does not mean a person is pandering. If you see merit to idea's from both sides, a person will always be thought to be siding with one side or the other due to the prejudices the others bring to the debate. I need not attack either side to discuss the issue.


I attack no one, and you miss my point. There are many more than two sides or options in this debate, but the only two I hear is Republican (some government power added) and Democrat (loads of government power added). This is the reality of the debate and I see neither side as having any sort of good end.

I have no prejudice, however I do want to reframe this debate. It's the only way to discuss it properly in my mind.


That is a false conclusion based on your personal prejudices. You are trying to pigeon hole me into one point of view or another. I am not anti-government. It is common sense we need laws and regulations to have a civil society. We do not need however people in power controlled by special interests who do not have our best interest at heart.


I pigeon holed no one and assume nothing. I will quote for you what I mean:

- "Government has never successfully run a business without massive waste and fraud. Not once in its history has it done that. To think they can do it now is delusional."
- "Government funded health care ONLY for those who can not pay themselves and nobody else. "
- " Open competition with no artificial borders at state lines legislated to reward special interests. "

To name a few. You are still mired in the idea that the solution lies at the Federal level. THAT is the problem, nothing else.

The reason you have state line seperations is because each state has it's own licensing, health regulation, and financial restrictions. The companies must, therefore, conduct business differently in each state according to it's respective laws.

The only way to circumvent that (not even sure it'd be constitutional), would be for the Federal government to strip the states of some more of it's power or to bribe them into selling that power (like with federal road funds, etc).

Not the best idea in my opinion.



When we categorize one another we make honest debate impossible.


Do not be guilty of your own assumptions. Labels mean nothing to me.


In a way you are pointing out the exact same thing I am. We actually agree in that we need less laws. We need more effective and fair laws. The quickest way to put an end to the ambulance chasers is to simplify the law and remove the loopholes they use.

One of the biggest lies going is that laws need to be complex or written in a way that not everyone can understand. It is a bald faced lie to protect the attorneys ability to empty our wallets. Most cases other than criminal cases should not even require an attorney. Courtroom trickery could be eliminated easily and to say otherwise is yet another lie.


First off, in a free society, the civil court system is vital. I'd think very carefully about approaching the issue with tort reform rather than the "Great Legislative Purge" as I like to call it.

Tort reform is dangerous, and removes some of the power of the people to gain recompense for damage to their property.



Not really. If it was a genuine pool with the risk shared by all, no matter age or behavior, it could be cheaper for everyone. We would pay the same from birth to death no matter who we are and there is no way that would not benefit us. The only reason we see this debate is people can not see past their own prejudices to understand how it could be. Without shared risk the whole concept of insurance is a farce.


Let me paint a picture for you. There are 50 opportunities to run 50 different health care models. Mass. could have state run/taxed universal care (single payer), while New Hampshire could have no state tax for this and no shared care.

No medicaid or medicare or Social Security is needed as the state simply assumes that role and may correct it, phase it out, or ramp it up as it and it's citizens so choose.

You would then have freedom to choose the type of system you choose to live and get taxed under.






Or, serve the people and do the jobs they were elected to do. Just because it is one way now does not mean it MUST be that way. Fatalism is giving up. I don't buy into that argument. You do frame the problem very clearly however.


Wrong. It is that way and will always be that way. That is the function of government, force. It is the collective population's pressure on ourselves and the world around us. That force can be good when used in a sparing and prudent manner.

Realism and fatalism are not the same.



new topics

top topics



 
1

log in

join