Republican08 Series I: Discussions with a Muslim

This is, A thread, Of a conversation between me and a Muslim, only about Islam, and religion, He agreed, then I agreed, we should 'publish' this now, for audience purposes.

Now, if you'd like to reply to any questions, feel free, if you feel the need to elaborate in either side, feel free, this is for entertainment purposes, and It's been a fun few weeks, and Wish I could carry on, but me and Babloyi, have a few things going on, so we cut it short, albeit, we're both up at a late hour, and I do, applaud him for being such a great role player, although I feel I am a interviewer, although I hope this will raise some of you to know a muslim more then the media points a view at it.

Republican08-

The bible my dear sir, speaks of the Talking snake, one of the first stories at that!

I'd like to hear how man can live inside a fish, and tell about it!

No not little jabs, if you can't do that, do not respond.

Ok, I was going to research the Quran, to attack you...

But I decided, I'd Keep it to the basics....

Why do you think your god (Allah) is a personal god?



BABLOYI-

Oh right. You speak of the devil. I understand.


Go ahead and research to "attack" me

. I'll try my best to limit the jabs. Personal request here, though. If you do use one of those "Humongous list of verses showing what is bad in religion", please make sure to check it up in the textual context in any one of the major translations. I find that Islam Awakened is a good resource, if a little cumbersome to read.


As for why I think god is a personal God:
Well..there is the personal reasoning: I have "experienced" god, felt god, been comforted, given strength, tetc.
Then there is the abstract reasoning: If you have a omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient god, it is obvious that such an entity would be fully capable of having a "personal relationship" to each and every thing in the universe.

REPUBLICAN08-

You say that you have experienced 'god' himself, and omnipotent, omniscient, omnieverything, god.

You have felt him, i'm sure, as you have felt, the chair you sit on, or the socks you have on now!

I do not doubt that!


I wonder perhaps though, of all the hindus, who have 'felt' just as real the presence of Lord Krishna, or the Christians who felt the presence of Yahweh, or saw Jesus, or even archangels?

Or those who have felt the presence of other gods....

What of them?

You explain what a certain god would do, and be capable of.

But what would of brought about that god, and more so, why would a god of that magnitude concern himself with this pale blue dot.

BABLOYI-

God is god to all humanity, not just muslims. I'm very sure that Hindus, Christians, Jews, whoever can, and have experienced God in some form. A name is just a name, a string of sounds we associate to an object. We might use them to make identification easier, but God is not limited to names.

As to your final statement, as I said, some of the properties of God are omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, etc. So unlike humans, God does not get tired, god does not get bored, god does not have to leave off one aspect of creation because another may be deemed "more important" by some. God is concerned with all things, at all times, in all places

REPUBLICAN08-

I offer a subtle question then.

Why create/concern, himself with humans? What are we, but mere peasents. Just play things.

And then Again, I ask renewed, do you believe the Koran to be the whole truth?

BABLOYI-

As I said, colouring the idea of God with our own perceptions wouldn't work. God is fully capable of handling all things with perfect precision. There is not the idea that "this is less important" "this is unimportant" "this is important".


And yes, as I mentioned earlier, I believe the Quran to be truth..

REPUBLICAN08-

What does the the Islam Religion say about Apostasy?


BABLOYI-

The punishment lies with God.

There are some who claim that the punishment for apostasy is death, and use certain hadith to back their theory. I think this is not correct, because there are many hadith where the Prophet didn't have the apostate killed or anything.
The punishment of death came because of treason during a battle, not because of apostasy.


Now I'll be the first to admit, there IS the concept of capital punishment in Islam, but it isn't for some minor personal thing like apostasy. It is for stuff like murder, or treason, etc.

Another point I'd like to make. I find the modern concept of "shariah" to be a farce (note the emphasis on modern). Each person you ask, each country you check that claims to follow Islamic laws, they've introduced their own perversions, ideas and traditions.

Last point, following the previous one, there are many states in the world today that claim to be "islamic", when they're just nonsense. I speak only for myself, as a muslim, and while these countries may be doing lots of horrible things, unless they are clearly based off Islam (in the sense that "The Quran says , and these people are doing it!" and not in the sense of " is a bad thing, and I see lots of muslims doing it, thus Islam is evil!"), I'd think that'd be outside the bounds of this discussion. Thanks!

REPUBLICAN08-

Ok, for day changes and such, let's change to another topic.


Why did allah, go create man, in the ways he did?

Would evolution be a better alternative of creation for you?

In a ignorant question, what is the purpose, and service of mecca?


BABLOYI-

I never said Allah didn't create man through evolution. I don't think Allah said it either. It is certainly possible that Allah created man through evolution.

In a personal aside:
I've mentioned this whenever some "science vs religion" or "creationist vs evolution topic" comes up, but I'll reiterate here. It really annoys me how two sides (theists and atheists) have picked up alternating ends of a completely unrelated field (science) to hold up as their flag. It ends up with reasoning like:
"I disagree with evolution because I believe in God"
or
"I don't believe in God because of the existence of evolution"
Which I'm sure you'll agree are both very illogical and backwards approaches to take, and can hinder the pursuit of knowledge by inserting politics into it.


As to your second question, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Mecca has certain history. According to Islam, it is the place Muhammad was bor;. It is the city of the Ka'aba (which has much history of its own); it is the place that Hagar and Ishmael settled; it is the place muslims go to perform pilgrimage every year.

If you mean the purpose of the pilgrimage, those are numerous too. The most obvious would be instilling a sense of brotherhood (all those people together with a common purpose), giving a sense of "religious achievement", and setting aside a part of your life specifically for religious pursuits, etc.

REPUBLICAN08-

Creation of Adam & Eve While Islam recognizes the general idea of the development of life in stages, over a period of time, human beings are considered as a special act of creation. Islam teaches that human beings are a unique life form that was created by Allah in a special way, with unique gifts and abilities unlike any other: a soul and conscience, knowledge, and free will. In short, Muslims do not believe that human beings randomly evolved from apes. The life of human beings began with the creation of two people, a male and a female named Adam and Hawwa (Eve). The Qur'an describes how Allah created Adam: "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26). And, "He began the creation of man from clay, and made his progeny from a quintessence of fluid" (32:7-8). Thus, human beings have a fundamental attachment to the earth.

islam.about.com...

From my understanding the argument is the same as a christians, claiming that maybe god worked through evolution, possibly, but the basis says otherwise, polar opposite almost.


As for you position on unlogical on both parts of evolution disproving god, and god disproving evolution.


Both are logical, rational, is another question, one side provides much reasoning, the other bends all rationality and reasoning to fit it, and you've already figured out which side is which.




I need not at much to my second question lol.

Do you feel that in the face of evolution, when looked at greatly seed doubt in your faith?


BABLOYI-

Having a soul, or special place on earth doesn't negate the idea of evolution for me.

By "illogical", I didn't mean that the actual viewpoints may be illogical (ie. pro-evolution, anti-evolution), I meant statements like (what I quoted before):

"I disagree with evolution because I believe in God"
or
"I don't believe in God because of the existence of evolution".
The one thing (belief in God) has absolutely no logical connection with the other (the idea of evolution). It would be like saying "I think beef tastes bad because apples are yellow".

Because of a certain amount of obstinacy, if we ever get new information (such as evidence negating/updating evolution, or evidence unequivocally confirming it), we'll have one side rejecting it solely because they feel the need to defend themselves against the other side. And that isn't the spirit of scientific discovery.

REPUBLICAN08-

What portion therefor, do you have, which evolution doesn't satisfy?
Fixed-
What part of evolution do you not deem fit?

And why does evolution allow your god to co exist?

What keeps you from believing of evolution if you don't?

In what case does Allah promote or possibly have an aspect in the realm of evolution

-Fixed above

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Republican08]

BABLOYI-
I have no problems with accepting evolution. However, one side effect of this polarised debate is that the against side has done their best to poke holes in as much of it as possible. While their reason for doing so might be misguided, and much of their arguments may be nonsense, there is some truth there. IF we stopped politicising the debate, scientists may be less scared about investigating and coming up with better fitting ideas. As it is now, many seem to find it necessary to "Stick to evolution", for no other reason than to "defend it" because it is being attacked. It is the nature of science to constantly update itself, and assimilate the new information, but in this case, because of this silly argument, it is not happening in this particular field.


God is the creator of all. He set up the rules, set up the structure, the materials, and gives it a push whenever needed. The existence of evolution doesn't negate the existence of God anymore than gravity or anything else.

REPUBLICAN08—

IF you feel this argument is silly, I will stop this immediately.


Scientist, thinkers, are not scared of it, they just cannot accept the "God made everything", argument and leave it at that.

Thusly, when we ask is this good for us, we do not reply, well god made us, and it must be good, so eat it!

Poison.

Evolution is the best, and most logical argument, some don't believe we came from chimpanzees, but I don't believe I came from dirt, dust, or a clotted blood.

Science updates, and corrects, and moreso, will say it is wrong, and rewrite itself.

More then religion can say at that though, religion is 'always right', always updating the world to fit what it says, always twisting reality to fit what it says, twisting it to the point where some dismiss reality and acknoweldge religion only.

I reiterate this of what Hitchens as said.


BY WHAT RIGHT!?


Hitchens ends.

You claim god did this, structured this, all of this imperfection, this atrocity, this ridiculed, this lukewarm planet.

He did all of this, and yet he's a 'perfect' being.

He should be spat upon by the village idiots in my eyes.

Evolution goes against the teachings of the gospels, and quran!

How do you not see this?

And if we alleviate one spot, what point does the rest lay upon, by which other then morality, which is like shooting fish in a bucket!

And please don't go to morality, unless fully armed.

Why couldn't god of left us well enough #in alone, a perfect being, why go the the trouble of torturing, a dauhmer effect on the human race.

A woman is raped, why does god allow this, to start of the next question.

BABLOYI-

I hope you won't be offended by this, but it seems to me you launched on a (well structured, I admit) pre-concieved rebuttal to an argument I never presented. I never said "God made everything" is an excuse not to study the universe. On the contrary, if you ask me, studying the universe reveals the beauty and awesomeness of God's creation. Hitchens may believe that ours is an atrocious, lukewarm existence, but I'd have to disagree with him.

As for the woman getting raped, I don't know, I am not god. Perhaps it was a chance to have a wonderful child. Perhaps it was a test that would ultimately make her grow. Perhaps it was just a bad man succumbing to dark desires.

REPUBLICAN08-

I presume, you know of the multi-verse 'theory'.

That there is not a universe, but multiple of them, and most likely an infinite amount of universes. If uni would fit lo.

Could this fit into the teachings that have been taught?

If this is proven true. Whichever way is proven.

Would your faith still be structured, if we were just a simple branch off of infinite amount of possible realities, where anything can happen in any universe?

Also, as a add in, away from the question.

If Time travel, was possible, how would your religion embrace this, ( I say embrace for the purposes of it is possible, in the question).


BABLOYI-

Yay, science fiction! A subject I greatly enjoy.


There is nothing I can think of that is in the concept of the multiverse theory that would go against the ideas of Islam.
As for time travel, again, I don't think there is anything implicitly wrong with it, in regards to Islam.

An interesting question that I have pondered on, sometimes, though, is whether we commit some big sin (like murdering someone), and then go back in time to the point it didn't happen, would that be evil, or wrong?

If we accept the multiverse theory (and connect that to time travel), then some alternate, somewhere in the "multiverse" would have experienced it, and it would probably be wrong for us to have done. But aside from that, I have no idea. Personally, I'd think it to be majorly wrong.

Actually, thinking of that, now if we approach the multiverse idea from the opposite angle, there may be some alternate of us, somewhere, who took a bunch of different decisions, and ended up being an evil serial killer.

Hahaha...that'd just make my head hurt. But I can't be worried about that. That alternate is not ME.

REPUBLICAN08-

Good reply

Since my answer was fulfilled I guess, I'll ask another question

What are your feelings toward atheist?

What do you believe an atheist is? Elaborate?

BABLOYI-

Personally, I'd think an atheist is a fellow who hasn't found the whole truth yet. There's this nice quote somewhere (I don't quite remember from who), that says "Atheists are half-muslims. They only have the latter half to be complete" (talking about the Islamic creed of "La illaha illallah muhammad ur rasoolallah" (There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet).


What do I believe an atheist is? There's a lot of debate going on about semantics and stuff, but...bleh
"An atheist is a person who doesn't believe in god".

Now if you're going to start some semantic trickery or something using my definition, then just remember, I don't really care about updating it. After all, I'm sure most have knowledge of the concept of atheism, and wordplay is just wordplay .

REPUBLICAN08-



Believe me, I could give a **** about semantics, as long as understanding is understood.

Why do you believe 'atheists' are atheists?

What would make someone a atheists, other then a christian or hindu?


BABLOYNI-

I dunno...so many reasons
they haven't got the whole information yet
they had bad experienced with the religion
they found something that they believe is a major mark-down for their religion
they were brought up by atheist parents
they're going through a rebellious teenage phase

REPUBLICAN08-

Who has a good experience with religion? Really?

"rebellious, upbringing, or finding a falseness in religion"

Is why people become atheist.

Well if we assume that everyone was brought up theist, as if not...... you know....

and the rebellious was to be....stoned..... you know...

And falseness in religion...... killed.... you know....

Why is it still there, why can we still find reason to question?

I admit, I know little of the quran, but in the bible, god was there in the beginning, and the good and evil was apparent.

In my eyes, we realized, that we didn't live on a disk, we weren't the center of the solar system, nor galaxy.

We weren't really that all special.

And although science can't explain everything, it's explained alot more then any religious text ever has.

So, I propose one question, as a deep muslim, what would life be like, without, an atheist, if everyone believed in Islam, and everyone followed directly by the Quran.

Strictly, word for word.

Not bashing of course, just wondering, since i'm not of full knowledge of it, what would it be like? The entire earth, not as the world described in the text, but as it would be seen as a outsider, an alien, a alien watching the earth of only Muslims, strictly living by the Quran.

BABLOYI-

Well, first off, it wouldn't be possible (even according to the Quran). God fully intended that there'd be different religions, tribes, "races", so that "we could know each other".

If through some weird impossibility it DID happen, it'd probably be some sort of strange utopia, but also probably somewhat boring .

Republican08-


How would the UTOPIA be according to the words in the Quran, how would people be treated, how would land be, and such, I'm just simply curious, I know again, little of the Quran.

BABLOYI-

Well, if EVERYONE followed Islam (strictly, exactly, etc), there'd be zero crime, zero wars, poverty eliminated etc.Parts of the Quran dealing with non-muslims, or punishments would probably be nullified.
Not exactly sure what you're looking for. Some specific example? The Quran is a pretty big book, with lots of content.

Republican08-

Just to be sure, what would be the life of a woman be like, in the exact accordance of the Quran, the exact teachings, what would their life be to the exact? Still not sure of this?

BABLOYI-

Less people would automatically look at them as sex objects? Treat them according to their abilities or personalities rather than their size?

REPUBLICAN08-

Not sure what is meant here.

Okay, I accept this answer.

Now I ask this, what would it be like, in a 'Christian" utopia?

BABLOYI-

Hahahahahah....if you ask me, a Christian Utopia would be even more impossible. "Turn the other cheek"?! I applaud the sentiment, but I could never do that. If someone attacks me, I like knowing that I can freely attack back. However, if it is all christian, it probably wouldn't happen (who'd attack in the first place?).


I suppose you're looking for me to spill some "bad points"? Women wouldn't be allowed to speak in church (but they probably wouldn't need to, the priest would be all perfect and all), divorce would be prohibited (although again, with

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Republican08]

everyone being perfect and all, it might not be needed). Oh, and everyone's head would explode trying to perfectly comprehend the finer theological issues .

The thing is, as I mentioned previously, it really wouldn't be possible. You can't just discount human nature and rebelliousness and have everyone following the rules exactly and perfectly.

REPUBLICAN08-

I've been had....

gasp.

You've got me, of course I wanted to hear the bad, although, I'm not sure what it would've been.

I wonder now though, for women, Is there a free will?

And also, to allow you the allowed longer answer!

What made you believe, solely in Allah, and if you would of been born elsewhere, would you have believed in something else, and if this is reiterating, I apologize.


BABLOYI-

You asking whether or not a muslim woman would be oppressed in this imagined islamic utopia?

Nope, I don't believe so. While Islam may set some vague gender roles (for example, unless he is unable, it is usually the husbands job to provide for the family), nothing stops a woman from working in what she wants to or doing what she wants to (unless it is some job like assassin thief or porno star or something).


As for your second question, again with the unpossible hypotheticals!

I do not know what would have happened if I was born somewhere else. My childhood was hardly religious (not really practising muslim and non-practising catholic), and my parents probably aren't too happy with my religiosity ("You'll never get married with a beard like that! We won't have any grandchildren!") . I'd probably believe in God in some form, and hopefully have enough strength of character to drop it if I found something wrong (I have tremendous respect for converts. It isn't something people usually do).

I believe in God because I've experienced God, and I believe in Islam because it most closely "fits".

REPUBLICAN08-

Ok you said, that Islam, fits the most, (most closely fits, in context).

What about Islam fits 'moreso' than the next religion?


BABLOYI-

That'd be a long long comparison .

Suffice it to say that my understanding of God involved something without all the extra baubles and frills just to make it shiny. THere were certain ideas that were innate in me that also pointed to "this wouldn't be how God would operate". A couple of eliminations later I arrived at Islam. I'll admit that because of my family history I might have had more exposure to it than some other religions, but I'd like to think that I dug deep enough into all, and only stopped when there was a major point that I fundementally disagreed with.

REPUBLICAN08-

If it's not too personal, If I could trespass.

What was the 'defining' moment that you became a Muslim.

You also said "This wouldn't be how God operated". Albeit In a different context.

What was it that made you think this way?

What made Allah, fill in the gaps? You know what I mean.

I still don't understand your last line....? Elaborate?

" but I'd like to think that I dug deep enough into all, and only stopped when there was a major point that I fundementally disagreed with."


BABLOYI-

Probably around my teenage years. Before that while I believed in God, I was kind of indifferent to the specifics, sometimes calling myself one thing, sometimes another, until I decided to "define" myself, as you put it .

As for things about how God wouldn't operate, I'd assume God would be just: Not requiring such things as human sacrifice, or favouring one person over another just because of the circumstances of their birth.

By my last line I mean exactly that. I investigated major faiths and religions and only gave up on them after I found some major point that I disagreed with.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Republican08]

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Republican08]

Wow.

Thanks for sharing that. Real interesting.

S&F

What is the whole point in this thread. So that you can tell everyone what you said and believe in your own beliefs. Weather you want to believe it or not people can experience God. There is a life after death. And remember you can't disprove God. You can never without a doubt prove that God doesn't exist. No amount of yelling and tell others that they are wrong in there beliefs doesn't help you. In fact it makes a pointless threads. There is just the same amount of logic in belief in God. In fact if you follow evidence and facts you actual might believe.

It was interesting, but your questions are all over the place, Republican08.

I'm not quite sure if you are just wanting to debate for the purpose of seeing what makes a person of any faith tick or if you are genuinely looking to get closer to God yourself.

If you are just wanting to engage in dialogue, people of faith,, to see what makes them tick, then I guess all these random questions would be the way to go. But if you would like to have, what all of us people of faith have - a personal relationship, I would suggest your questions be more oriented towards the intimate details of what we each experience, how we each back up our claims (Jew, Christian, Islam etc) and then and only then could you formulate some kind of opinion regarding who is getting what and how much out of said religion.

In the end it must come down to which of these religions takes the believer the furthest through the teachings they provided.

Babloyi gives detailed answers but I guarantee you he/she could have wrote a thesis on each and every question. From the outside looking in - Babloyi wins, hands down.

No agenda guys, you're too paranoid.

It was more of a late night discussion, with another member.

Quit freaking out, especially you Slymatt whatever.

If you don't like a thread... or hell if your not going to read it, you don't have to reply.

GREAT! you two guis have my applause,its about time we have an inteligent discusion with no hate on either side,today i begun to realise that there are alot of young muslim people who are normal and great guis,not religious fanatics.
im too lazy to read now but still GREAT

reply to post by slymattb


No ones freaking out man.

Apperently you miss mine and Myrtales Instinct points about your thread.

My point in basic

Originally posted by slymattb
Weather you want to believe it or not people can experience God. There is a life after death.

Myrtale point basically

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I'm not quite sure if you are just wanting to debate for/But if you would like to have, what all of us people of faith have - a personal relationship, I would suggest your questions be more oriented

I am calm, I just don't get why you made the thread, you took the whole discuss you had posted on other thread here. Point taking you made a thread and you should discuss what is in the thread. You ignore both mine and Myrales posted completely. Now why did you post all that, if you don't want to discuss the truth. God is alive.

Besides I notic that you didn't repond to the U2U about God and Christ that was sent a week ago. It seams to me that you don't want to discus truth????



[edit on 11-10-2009 by slymattb]

Been busy, and the Babloyi wanted me to go ahead and publish it, then I went straight to sleep, and worked all day, will write my portion in a little bit, just reserving this spot...

Oh and slymattb I have no record of a u2u from you....?

I deleted the u2u I swear I thought it was you, but could be wrong.

Originally posted by slymattb
I deleted the u2u I swear I thought it was you, but could be wrong.

I feel like I may of gotten it, but I go through U2U's extremely fast, and may of forgot to reply...

I tried buying more u2u space, but it just doesn't work...

You can send it again if you like, unless it just says you fat hobo, die!

Then don't, only nice ones

reply to post by Republican08


Excellent interview, Republican08. I actually learned something.

The interview reminds me of dialogue in a Robert Altman movie, all over the place, but with a lot of meaning.

Thank you for sharing this rather personal experience.