The Great American Streetcar Scandal

Thanks to all for keeping this alive. I put it up last last night and it seems it was going to the way of the Dodo bird as it was falling down the forum quickly. I don't care about stars or flags I just hate it when I take the time to do something and it gets ignored. Nothing I can do about that, it happens, but it's nice to see someone got something out of this.

I came across the Roger Rabbit angle in one of the sources. Been so long since I saw that movie I remember little about it except the classic line "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way". I'll have to get a copy of it and watch it again. Thanks for bringing it up.

Just think of how handy those systems would be today? The congestion of city streets, rush hour...the pollution and noise...most cities are dying to have these systems in place. Now we are spending millions to put these systems back into place...I wonder who owns the companies that manufacture street cars and electric railways now?

Originally posted by synchro
Now, the 'future fantasy' is to turn our cars and trucks into trolley cars or people movers by using radar and LDAR (sp.?) systems which work similarly to cruise control only with braking and steering to keep distance from other vehicles on heavily congested freeways during rush hour. This is supposed to greatly reduce traffic and increase fuel efficiency. Yet, I see it as making each person buy and maintain their own 'people mover' so the city won't have to. Oh, and of course one would have to pay an extra fee in order to grant their vehicle 'access' to the computer network and traffic lanes that controls their it. Who's to say that all this wasn't planned a long time ago? Good cop, bad cop?

well i can tell you exactly why that won't happen; laws should be in place for one purpose, and one purpose alone - to ensure the safety of the citizens in situations where law enforcement can not control. laws are put there to make us safe, but unfortunately, the police are using them to make their money.

think about it - instead of putting a rail under the road to guide your vehicle, and instead of adding a computer that automatically steers and drives your car, they use police enforcement to regulate your safety... when you screw up, by either having an accident, or driving and swerving while intoxicated, the police are there to "protect" you and other citizens by stopping you, in turn creating income for themselves. well, if they really cared about our safety, they would install rails to guide our cars, and computers on each and every vehicle to control them safely to their destinations.

however, that won't bring in the same money, for cops and the highway patrol, that traffic laws, photo-enforcement cameras, tickets, and driving under the influence brings when you break the law... laws are for safety, but if we designed our systems to be safe, then someone wouldn't be making tons of money off of the sheep.

where else have we seen this sort of scheme practiced before??.......

reply to post by adrenochrome


Don't get me started on traffic enforcement cameras. Really.

But yeah, you got it right. If the money-go-round isn't pulling the cash into the coffers of the rich and powerful it goes into more and more enforcement of laws and regulations "for our own benefit" that just put the money into the coffers of the state, so they can make more laws and the cycle is never ending. Just like the war on drugs - bust someone for a pipe or something totally nonexistent, take all their belongings, sell them so they can go bust more people.

I'm digressing a little and the war on drugs is not what this is about but the facts are the same. If the corporations don't make enough millions or billions, then we get screwed.

EDIT: Spelling error and to put in these pics.

According to the Cleveland Plains-Dealer, this subway was closed in 1954. Just another one sitting there rotting away.













Source: rustwire.com...

[edit on 9/30/2009 by TheLoony]

reply to post by D.E.M.


D.E.M. They say something about a picture is worth a thousand words, and they are. However, sometimes the opinions taken from moments reaction, or stare are scrutinized for something they never were, but I must say the photo You presented are worth a 1000 words of truth

I rode the Red Cars (as they were called) in downtown Los Angeles. My gramma didn't drive - - but knew all the bus lines - "car" lines - - - and was on a first name bases with some of the drivers.

They were really cool. The metal conductors sparked when they touched the wires.

I never heard anyone think it was a good idea to tear them up. Most people I heard were very upset about it and thought it was stupid to spend money to destroy something that worked so well.

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

reply to post by TheLoony

Thanks to all for keeping this alive. I put it up last last night and it seems it was going to the way of the Dodo bird as it was falling down the forum quickly. I don't care about stars or flags I just hate it when I take the time to do something and it gets ignored. Nothing I can do about that, it happens, but it's nice to see someone got something out of this.

This was from one of Your earlier posts. I understand what Your saying completely.........For Real The problem is the society in it's present conditioned state of existence. We are conditioned to not be able to focus on the more simple things usually; why would anyone with the bling, bling, bling on the boobtube

Regarding the post I responded to....... The current state of conditioned existence is sad to say the least. We look at cryptic pre history in shock, awe, and wonder; however, We are almost in a similar modern state concerning the advancements of late 19th, and early 20th centuries. Just like the photos You provided, the advancements were all around us, but they are covered in weeds, and lost in some kind of veiled lie regarding history of the advancement of man

Thanks again for the thread loony

Just curious -- have you ever searched by: "The Red Cars"

Who knows - you might find more information.

Funny to realize that American cities fell for the same scheming as a lot of European cities in the 50's and 60's :All sorts of public rail transport in city centers was dismantled out,because it was "outdated" i.e. DAF and Mercedes , Michelin etc. couldn't sell enough diesel buses and tires as long as trolley's and trams reigned......until city-center retailers discovered customers stayed away because they refused to dive headlong in the quagmire called"city-traffic" and went to large malls outside the city limits. Net result: dead inner cities, no revenue in taxes for the municipalities etc...

Suddenly all big cities are rolling over one another to re-instate Trams, trolleys etc. in the inner cities (Inner cities, by now reduced to a stinking, sut-producing 24hrs traffic-jam).....allthewhile they could have spared themselves the hassle by never dismantling rails and such anyways(some older cities here did just that, and kept, despite ridicule and pressure from bus-companies, the rails and overhead power cabling. They are the ones currently laughing their a$$es off on he stupidity of a number of "modern cities")

reply to post by TheLoony


Interesting well presented thread and comments. I think the highway system serves an important role but why not park on the outskirts of urban centers and eliminate much of the congestion, smog, costs and hazards? For instance, we often park in New Jersey, board the ferry to NYC and then take connected buses from the ferry terminal all over the city. It's convenient, economical, comfortable and in general, enjoyable. Hard to believe, right? There's no good reason that public transit should not be revisited.

The end of suburbia, well worth watching in relevance to this thread...
www.youtube.com...

Great Job. S&F. Your work on this post is greatly appreciated!!

The whole point of making america addicted to the automobile, is to get the rest of the world to follow suit.
If 'global warming' is caused by man, and the world would be using public transport instead of the car, it wouldn't be very easy to convince people that MMGW (Manmade Global Warming) was real.
Australia has copied america in it's urban planning centered around the need for a car, despite claims that we have one of the best PT systems in the world. Now, it seems Aus is going to lead the world in the creation of all-electric cars. Why can't we lead the world by having our cities car-free?

A typical response to the arguments of MMGW is "MMGW? Oh yes, we have too many cars, it must be real! Let's support al gore!" Just because your local area has too many cars doesn't mean the whole of civilisation is like that.
Please stop supporting legislation that forces world governments to opress third-world countries who only want what we have.

[edit on 30/9/2009 by nrky]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet is that GM created CREDIT!Back in the early 20's, they decided to do battle with Ford and founded the credit system. It took off around the time of this scandel.

If public transportation is so great, why didnt people use the new buses as much, and why dont people like to ride the bus now. Cars are about freedom of coming and going and doing as you please. That is why people love them.

The other question is that if public transportation is so great, why does almost every public transporation system in the US have to be subsidized by local, state, and/or federal money. You would think something that is as wonderful as you describe existed then they would be raking in the dough.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by TacoBellMakesGas]

It is obvious that we were sold a bill of goods [pig in a Polk] in regards to the trolley system. The only reason the American public does not use or really desire a light rail system is that we were sold the "American Dream". Everyone has a house and a car in every garage.

Would the American people go for a light rail system, sure if presented in the proper light. However, you have the auto manufactures to contend with and they are not about to give up on the auto gravy train. I am sure big oil and the tire industry would be happy to give up their share...NOT!

Personally I love the MTR and KTR systems we have here in Hong Kong. It is so convenient, I can go anywhere I want without any hassles. No need to carry coins for fares as we have an Octopus card (cash card) that pays the fare simply by touching the card reader. We can even use it for buying food at the stores and other items.

We have our cars also but just don't drive them as much. I remember as a kid being able to get either the trolley or train in LA and loving it. Thanks to the OP I now know what happened to them.

Originally posted by TacoBellMakesGas

The other question is that if public transportation is so great, why does almost every public transporation system in the US have to be subsidized by local, state, and/or federal money. You would think something that is as wonderful as you describe existed then they would be raking in the dough.

I have often wondered what the dealio was with this myself. The Public Transportation we have in my city is packed with people. Often times standing room only. Yet they continuously cry that they're not making enough money. They recently got rid of transfers here. Used to be, you could pay for a ticket on one bus, get off of that one, and onto another using the same ticket, for which, you would surrender your transfer. It was great for going on simple one stop trips to the store or whatnot. Now days you have to pay every time you step on a bus, unless you want to shell out over twice as much for an all day pass. Part of me wants to slap the PT people over here as being greedy savages, but that's the way of the world it seems. Someone, somewhere, is rolling in it, and it's hurting Public Transportation, and giving the PT here in my city a bad shake.

Chrono

This thread reminds me of my home town in sheffield

We had a huge and successful tram network running as recently as the 60's.......

upload.wikimedia.org...

Which has been torn up.

then replaced at vast cost with a new tram network..........


Which isn't as good !

farm4.static.flickr.com...

reply to post by TheLoony


Up until 1938 - 1939,

The Kanawha-Charleston Interurban served my area with street car lines that traversed just about every single mile of the county. The services were successful up until rubber tired bus services started popping up and competeing with the trolleys. With the arrival of the Greyhound Bus Company, the buses just proved to be the "nail in the coffin" to trolley service around here. The county wide bus service that we have now, they run on the original trolley car routes that once went about the county. I can tell you this, most of the infrastructure that the trolleys used to get around is still here even though its buried under the blacktop of highways and city streets. However, there has been talk over the past two decades of reviving the interurban lines in both Charleston and Huntington. Then again, this talk of it has been going on for the past twenty or so years. If it were to become a reality again, most of the infrastructure like cantenary poles and the overhead wires for power would have to be rebuilt from scratch.

In fact, here is a list of the Interurban companies that were once located in West Virginia.
West Virginia Trolley Lines

Here are two little tidbits of information about the Pacific Electric Railway. The railway itself was founded and funded by Henry E. Huntington of the Huntington family of railroad and real estate. His uncle, Collis P. Huntington, was the man behind the completion of the Central Pacific Railroad that would eventually make up the western expansion of the Transcontinental Railroad when it was completed in 1869. Collis P Huntington was also the driving force behind the completion of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway here on the East Coast of the United States. Along with the Chesapeake & Ohio came new cities such as Huntington, West Virginia and Newport News, Virginia,

reply to post by TheLoony


hello i am a trolley enthusiast.i am from philadelphia and have a great appreciation for trolley transit but before i go in it just drives me nuts when i hear the terms "light rail" or "LRV".i truly understand the power and gravity of the trolley because by living in and old city like philadelphia where most cityscape has not changed in a century i have seen personally the positives of the trolley to this city and actually seen first hand the remnants in other sections of the city of trollies past.i live in sw philly which is close to PHL AIRPORT and my section of the city was designed with the trolley in mind.we have 3 of the 5 active trolley lines left in my section of the city which with if you add the connect points with those of our elevated train lines and dare i say bus connects makes my part of the city the most connected arguably in the united states.i was born and raised next to the oldest line in philly the route 11 and if you all were to visit philly it takes you through a real time line on how neighborhoods developed and their relationaship with downtown(center city).while i am curious to see and experience boston's trolley line and san fransiscos as well i would argue that our 11 is the most connected trolley in the world.you can go from the city limit alway to downtown for one fare.in my opinion city planners have it all wrong.trolleys were designed to bring folks from the neighborhoods to downtown and NOT from sector to sector or district to district.the untapped resource is the neighborhoods themselves.rails cemented in streets mean one thing and that is promise promise something is coming all the time and when something is coming all the time folks are likely to build businesses which in turn sustains the population settlement of the neighborhood.now having said all that this method of thinking was not utilized or sustained in once trolley dominant sections of philly like west philly and south philly and north philly which saw their lines cut infact if you their are sites which you can still see the trolley tracks and the poles still intact inpart because septa and philadelphia are too cheap the cover them up.of all the cities who can realize the dream of a GREAT trolley system it should be philly because all the inferstructure is already in place and we still have a culture which depends on trolleys and mass transit in general