Originally posted by mad scientist
It may just be a different version of teh ammo UP. Sometimes penetration power is detrimental to the requirements of a mission ie. inside a plane.

Yes I know MS. But no, they really changed the weapon and it's ammo. It was a political issue in Belgium. Since the P-90 have been designed and is producted in Waloonia, some Flemishs policy makers have tryed to *kill* the P-90. They failed.

lol ultra phoenix

Lol, UP, I like your avatar.

UP, you and Nans will likely end up getting married at that rate!

MS, do you have any information on the ballistics (specifically bullet weight and muzzle velocity) for the FN P-90?

It seems that the point of the P-90 is to produce a high volume of firepower for close range with increased penetration (although according to UP, it seems they are detracting from the penetration). This sounds like the requirements of a submachine gun.

If you need a weapon for up-close-and-personal confrontations, then yes, a subgun would be preferred. However, 9mm in my book just doesnt cut it. At the same time, I CANNOT see an advantage to going to an even smaller caliber!!!!! By far the subguns with the best stopping power at those chambered in .45 ACP.

In my book, the best subgun ever invented would be the Thompson M1928. It is rugged, virtually indestructible, the feed ramp is machined to accept virtually any cartridge shape that can fit in the magazine, and the weight and design are perfect for keeping good control when firing at full auto. I have fired one, and have no problems at all keeping an entire magazine within center of mass of a human shillouette at 25 and even 50 meters.

The alternatives to this would be the M3 Greasegun (acceptable), the Mac10 .45 (too small, too high rate of fire, too inaccurate, not acceptable), or the new HK .45 subgun (likely the preferred in todays world).

Of course, the queen of close quarters combat is a good reliable pump action 12 guage shotgun, preferrably with the shortest barrel possible. Firing 9 pellets of 00 Buckshot, or up to 41 pellets of #4 buckshot, it ends a close range fight very quickly.

If you need enhanced penetration, the Treasury Department developed a 9mm ammo that uses tungsten carbide drill shanks machined into flechettes and fitted into sabots... they are rumored to be able to penetrate Level III tactical vests from an HK MP5.

Originally posted by joehayner
Lol, UP, I like your avatar.

Thanks. Of course, my new avatar is just temporary.I'll keep it some days.

But your avatar is funny too.

Originally posted by dragonrider
1) UP, you and Nans will likely end up getting married at that rate!

2) It seems that the point of the P-90 is to produce a high volume of firepower for close range with increased penetration (although according to UP, it seems they are detracting from the penetration). This sounds like the requirements of a submachine gun.

1) Huum, I have to see with my wife. She probably has a different point of view.

2) Yep, the P-90 is good for close combat. But actually, the P-90 cartridge can NOT penetrate anything, except a body. That cartridge don't penetrate body armor, helmet and so on.... Also, if you are hit by a P-90 cartridge, the bullet will stay inside you and will not coming out from your back. It's a security. If someone is behind the guy who's hitted, he/she will be safe. The new P-90 cartridge has been designed to wound, not to kill, and to avoid any * collateral damage *.

Also, if you don't hit your target, but you hit a wall, a car ...etc... the bullet will smash against the wall and will not go somewhere else after having hitted the wall.

As to the claim that the 5.56mm was designed to hit targets at 1000 meters....

From a full size AR-15, the 55 gr FMJ round at 1000 meters will be traveling at 799 feet per second, producing 78 foot pounds of energy, or about 2x the muzzle energy of a .177 air rifle. It will experience 711 inches of drop or about 19.75 meters of bullet drop from point of aim

The 7.62mm NATO 147 gr FMJ at 1000 meters will still be traveling 1047 feet per second (still supersonic!) producing 365 foot pounds of energy, or about the same as the muzzle energy of a 9mm handgun.

There are MANY documented cases of the 7.62mm being used successfully (by snipers) at 1000 meters, and beyond.

I am STILL waiting for an explaination of why smaller lighter calibers and high tech are any better than what we had 50 years ago????

Actually, the new player in the game is a re-vamped M4 using a new cartridge in 6.8mm. All that is needed is an upper receiver change out - or replacing the barrel and bolt - and a slightly re-designed mag. Do a search on 6.8 SPC and you will find out the info on it. FYI they are being sold commercially as well now too - around $600 - $1200 (depending on the maker) for a new upper for your AR-15 (or clone). Also, another new development is polymer cased ammo that the military is looking at - lighter weight than conventional brass cased ammo. And by coincidence (?) a round of the new 6.8mm ammo in a polymer case weighs in about the same as a standard 5.56mm brass cased round. Oh and the polymer cases cannot be reloaded! Kinda dries up the "secondary supply chain"!

The XM-8 are already in field trials with the army...the M4 is too unreliable in adverse conditions...that is why they are looking for a replacement.