Theism Pantheism Atheism

Theism - God Made all (E.G Judaism, Christianity, Islam)

Pantheism - God is All (E.G Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age)

Atheism - No God at all (E.G Religious Humanism)

Everybody is religious

every single person has some kind of religious view point.

Everyone is a fundamentalists.

Atheist's are fundamentalist they just have different fundamentals!

and everybody has faith.


As a christian i feel that in my view we have a lot of evidence for our religion which requires a lot less faith than any other religion or faith. (including Atheism)

If the universe had a beginning. it must of had a creator!

Frank Turek said this.

Second law of thermodynamics
Universe is expanding
Radiation Afterglow
Great galaxy seeds
Einstein's general relativity

Scientific Evidence that the universe had a beginning

"I believe in the big bang..i just know who banged it!" Frank Turek

if the universe had a beginning, then it must have had a Beginner.
the evidence leaves us with 2 options.

1. No one created something out of nothing

or

2. Someone created something out of nothing

which is more reasonable?

If someone created something out of nothing that would mean that someone was created by someone, wich was created by someone etc etc.
Which leads to this question : Who was first?

If noone created something out of nothing then that something (Universe)
would have a source wich leads to this question : What was that source?

Scientists have answered the secon question by saying that the Universe was that energy and stardust or some sort, exploded at a certain time (Big Bang) wich again leads to the same question : Which was the source of
all that energy and stardust?

Soooo i guess... that both could be reasonable
.

I´m sorry if i have bad grammar, i was born in a non-english speaking country so i don´t have a perfect english

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

God is self-existing, immaterial, and eternal outside the universe

[edit on 14/09/2009 by the illuminator]

reply to post by the illuminator


I dunno, my faith works out well for me and is based on the world around me and my experiences both internally and externally. As you might imagine, I am not a Christian... I can best be described as a pantheist.

Your explaination of a constant, self-existing god does nothing really to address the point. Saying God is self-existing with no creator is no differant than saying the universe has always existed in one form or another.

Current M-Theory actually does a pretty decent job of explaining the creation of multiple universes through collision of membranes within the 11th dimension. It does not yet attempt to explain how the dimensions cames to exist, but that can be forgiven just as much as ya'll can be excused for saying god is eternal.

Christianity is supposed to be under a mix of Pantheism and Theism, but no one really respects that or teaches that anymore....

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
Christianity is supposed to be under a mix of Pantheism and Theism, but no one really respects that or teaches that anymore....

can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

reply to post by the illuminator


Where is this "space" that god exist and who created it?

And if you say God is self-existing couldn't it be argued that the universe is self-created?

reply to post by the illuminator

As a christian i feel that in my view we have a lot of evidence for our religion which requires a lot less faith than any other religion or faith. (including Atheism)

I'm going to have to stop you there and tell you that Christianity requires just as much blind faith as any of the other religions. There is zero proof of any deity so it's just as likely that there are 30 billion gods in the universe as there is one omipotent/omniscient creator.

And no, not everything that's created has a creator or a "first cause". Quantum mechanics has shown that particles can be created in the vacuum of space without having a cause, exist, and then poof back in to non existence.

Besides, if it's impossible for the universe to exist without a creator, then why is it impossible for a creator to exist without another creator? Because the Bible says so?

The only valid option with any evidence is option 2. Option 1 is, sadly, all hope. Trust me, I hope there's something to God(s), but until the evidence is apparent, I have to rely on more than flawed logic and blind faith.

do you have evidence that the universe is self creating?

because science has evidence that it had a beginning

as i said whats more plausible. that the universe was created by no-one or the universe was created by someone?

Both, let me explain.
At the beginning the Universe was created, noone created it. This "Universe" collapsed in a set amount of years, here the creator was born. At the "Universe"´s collapse, the creator was saved, so he created the next "Universe".

That way 1. doesn´t really contradict 2.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

reply to post by the illuminator


There is nothing about the universe that screams that it is all there is. It is perfectly plausible that the universe exists in a much larger omniverse and was created through processes which exist in the larger system.

Reverse infinity discussions are always great. Because it's like asking what is the biggest number. You can always ask, yeah, but what made that? Same goes for theological discussions.

Originally posted by Bildeberg
Both, let me explain.
At the beginning the Universe was created, noone created it. This "Universe" collapsed in a set amount of years, here the creator was born. At the "Universe"´s collapse, the creator was saved, so he created the next "Universe".

That way 1. doesn´t really contradict 2.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

Thats alot harder to swallow and harder to get evidence for my friend

reply to post by TheOneElectric

Christianity is supposed to be under a mix of Pantheism and Theism, but no one really respects that or teaches that anymore....

That doesn't make sense. Christianity stemmed from Judaism.

Judaism's big "claim to fame" is it's monotheistic, personal God:

Deuteronomy 6.4:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the LORD is one.

Throughout the Old Testament, God didn't take kindly to when something other than him was receiving worship. A medal ox receiving worship would've been a-okay if God was pantheistic.

The Hebrew God is separate from creation, as he created everything! Therefore pantheism is eliminated. How could something be God if it was created?

Christianity inherited this God. Christians view God as completely separate, and unique, from creation.

If, as you say, Christianity truly has pantheism somewhere in it, it's just being ignored, how do explain this? Romans 1.21-23:

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

If Christians had viewed things in a pantheistic way, why would Paul rail against those that worshiped animals, which by the definition of pantheism would have God in them. Not to mention that Christians, for the most part, are expecting one to come that will set himself up as God and receive worship. Things don't end too well for that fellow.

Originally posted by the illuminator

Originally posted by Bildeberg
Both, let me explain.
At the beginning the Universe was created, noone created it. This "Universe" collapsed in a set amount of years, here the creator was born. At the "Universe"´s collapse, the creator was saved, so he created the next "Universe".

That way 1. doesn´t really contradict 2.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bildeberg]

Thats alot harder to swallow and harder to get evidence for my friend

Hard to believe, yes, but slightly easier than the Christian version.

If we base our beliefs of creation on the story that's the easiest to believe we can just say we have always been here and always will. Problem solved...

I have a suggestion.

There is no way you are going t convince me of anything based on centuries old arguments and pseudo logic (like rejecting any counter-argument because god is a "special case" so it doesn't apply). And I certainly will not convince you of anything based on logic or argumentation.

However, ATS does provide you with a forum to share with us some of the perspectives of your faith and how and why it is applicable to the right here and now. We are faced with a host of challenges and problems at the local, national and global levels.

What sort of solutions or insights does your faith give you into the issues of today that we who do not share your faith may find enlightening? This would seem to me to be a far more effective way of presenting your beliefs in a positive light rather than engaging in "first cause" arguments.

Or perhaps your faith might give some insights into the UFO and another paranormal issues that are dealt with on this board.

After all, does the bible not say "By their fruits you shall know them."

reply to post by the illuminator


With all due respect Iluminator, you ask for evidence for someone elses beliefs, but you have none to offer yourself. I think we can all agree that the things that happened before our world wadscreated are quite hard to "prove". Much of it is taken on faith, even many cosmologists would probably admit that they take a bit of a leap of faith when they work some of their math. Many would even admit to just guessing.


OCTOMOM! Hey there! Long time no see! How are ya!?

I never understand why Christians try to equate atheism to a religion. Atheism has no religious text, no dogmatic principles, and it doesn't require you to follow anything. It promotes you to go out and find answers on your own rather than believing everything someone tells you or text from a 2,000 year old doorstop.

I also don't believe in unicorns, the Boogeyman, and Manbearpig. Is there a religion for not believing in them?

[edit on 22-9-2009 by serenesupreme]

reply to post by rogerstigers

I think we can all agree that the things that happened before our world wadscreated are quite hard to "prove". Much of it is taken on faith...

At least to me, it's refreshing to see someone that, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't a theist acknowledge something like this!

OCTOMOM! Hey there! Long time no see! How are ya!?

I'm well. Thanks for asking! Yourself?

reply to post by serenesupreme

I also never understand why people try to equate atheism to a religion.

It's due to how many define what a religion is. And it has nothing to do with a set of dogmatic beliefs or a sacred text. Many view anything as a religion if it answers the three "biggest" questions man has:

1. Where did we come from?
2. Why are we here?
3. Where are we going?

Atheism can answer these three questions in one way shape matter or form, albeit not in a typical religious way with heaven, angels, and things of that sort, so people view it as a religion.

Whether or not you agree with the thought process is up to you, but that is why many equate atheism to a religion.

[edit on 9/22/2009 by octotom]

reply to post by octotom


I am pretty much a pantheist. I believe in a universal force, but not an ordered religion or dogma. My purpose here is to learn and explore this life and when I die in this body, take what I have learned back with me wherever I go next. I view this life as temporary and transient and human knowledge as a whole rather limited and childlike in scope. That'll be enough details for now.

And I am well. Surviving the transition from Fall to Winter. Three weeks ago, it was 100 F and today it was 67 F and nothing but rain in between..lol