Did Valinor exist?

In The Lord of the Rings, the Elves sail west to Valinor, a continent that used to be part of the physical world but was removed when Numenor (Atlantis) was sunk in punishment for them declaring war on Valinor.

They use magical ships that sail on an ethereal ocean that goes off in a straight line from the coast of Middle-earth, going up into the air and entering the dimension Valinor is in. A few strange, Bermuda Triangle-esque occurrences have happened where mariners got lost, disappeared, and ended up in Valinor.

The idea of a lost faerie continent is not unique to Tolkien. The Irish believed in a land called Hy Brasil, that sometimes appeared west of Ireland.

Do you think it's possible that some ancient continent was physically removed from the world and is now inhabited by fairies?

Personally, I don't like using a known work of fiction as the basis for a scientific discussion.

Research existing myths and legends (such as the Irish ones you mentioned). Get some links put together. Try to find the references for the local legends from the area and how those could be true.

Don't reference fiction. Any case you make is damaged by knowing that it is built on a false reference.

Indeed. While Tolkien is great and I love him to death, its not a good starting point to base an argument concerning a vanished continent on. A literary essay on how Numenor was a parallel to the real-world myth of Atlantis would work, but reversing the roles just paints you as a target for the more vicious people here in this forum.

That being said, you are on the right track with the Irish and other UK myths, I'd suggest reading up on that a little more, its really very interesting.

I'm not saying Tolkien's Valinor exists, I'm saying is it possible something very similar exists? Could that explain the Bermuda Triangle and the fairy/elf legends of Celtic and Nordic countries?

I am not sure you are understanding what we are trying to point out to you.

"Does a fictional continent exist supply evidence to paranormal stuff in the real world?"

That is what your statement boils down to. What you should do is perform the research we suggested, and then present that as a modern day comparison.

In summary, stop referring to Valinor (or any other known fictional place) and deal with history itself to put together a hypothesis.

I like your idea - but you really need to present your case better.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
I'm not saying Tolkien's Valinor exists, I'm saying is it possible something very similar exists? Could that explain the Bermuda Triangle and the fairy/elf legends of Celtic and Nordic countries?

I don't think so. Tolkien was a professor who specialized in history and mythology and was extremely familiar with the Nordic mythology. Valinor seems to be based on the Celtic legend of Avalon (and is a partial anagram of the name); the "Isle of the Blessed." Bermuda isn't anywhere near where the Isle would have been.

The "Isle of the Blessed" is sort of a generic myth; as one grows old, cultures around the world talk about the "sunset of life" or "twilight of life". If our world was spinning the other direction, people would talk about sailing off to the East.

To the west of the Celtic lands is the Mid Atlantic ridge, where the continental crust is pulling apart. There aren't any lands there, sunken or otherwise.

LOTR has a lot of mythology woven into it, but is clearly fiction. The Shire doesn't exist, nor does Mount Doom. They are all the creations of an extraordinarily talented scholar.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Stories like this go back to the very start of human civilization and are prevalent in nearly all cultures leading many to believe that we are storing an unconscious memory of a time when humanity was united and a great cataclysm tore us apart and scattered us. The memories of our ancient homeland (science tells us this is likely Africa) faded and changed and were blended with myth and legend to give us stories of lost cities and continents decimated by angry gods.

Stories of a great flood are also common and there is some evidence to suggest flooding at the end of the ice age, the drastic rise in sea level, is to blame for some of these legends.

We have to understand that while human history only goes back maybe 8,000 years or so that our species and our ancestors go back hundreds of thousands of years and who knows what dark memories we harbor in our collective unconscious, memory inscribed on our very genetic code perhaps or hard wired into our brain...

So some place like Atlantis, or Valinor, or insert name of lost civilization here, may have once existed. There are thousands and thousands of years of human existence that we have little idea what was happening. Scattered tools and bone fragments give us a glimpse but they hardly give us the big picture... Human civilization may have existed and been destroyed countless times (the Mayans believed the 'world' would end numerous times, not saying I agree with them but...)

We really don't know... which is where fiction comes in to fill in the gaps...

The lord of the rings is a allegory, of the post victorian world from a british perspective.
The character associations are sometimes obvious,
sauron is the nazis,saruman the former ally turned enemy is japan.
Gondor is britain
the usa has a couple of associations one is the kingdom of rohan
The far away land that comes to the aid of gondor after being attacked by a former ally.
It was a metaphor for the us waiting to join the fight till the japanese attacked.
The magic of the wizards is technology
the eleves well, are just elves
The power of the ring is atomic energy
it has the power to win the war yet with that come almost impossible to control evil of nuclear proliferation
then theres the thinly veiled victorian racism in the fact that north and west are good while east and south are bad.

reply to post by punkinworks


I would see Stalin as the main enemy. What did Tolkien himself say was the inspiration?

reply to post by Hanslune


hi there hans,

have no idea what was in tolkiens mind.
My brother came up with analogy.
we had thought how stalin might figure in,maybe stalins ussr was one of marginaly alligned kindoms of men inferred, but not a part of the story, that lay in the east, that eventually sided with good.

reply to post by punkinworks


I've seen an analysis of this somewhere someplace. Which had the two towers being Nazism and Communism. Cannot find it anywhere thou.

I think Luxembourg is the shire....either that or the Grand Duchy of Fenwick.

I tried reading the Lord of the Rings series of books when I was a kid. I could not make heads or tails of them. I have also watched the movies and still don't understand them. Oh well, I guess I just don't have the right mindset.

Anyway, here is a link to some things you might find interesting.

J.R.R. Tolkiens' Middle Earth did not come out of thin air. Tolkien, an academic linguist, drew on the following source materials to inspire his world-building exercise. The texts presented at this site are complete and in some cases in the original languages.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Then there is the myth of Avalon. Or should I say story? Who knows, I would argue it maybe possible, if improbable.

[edit on 20-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Hanslune


Actually Tolkien was a technophobe after the first World War and that is largely what it was about with the Orcs and Sauron representing the encroaching industrial revolution.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


That has some creditability too. As Russian Communism was hot on heavy industry.

reply to post by Hanslune


I am not so sure it was of a political bend*Fascism, Communism, etc* just more so about as the "Good" races followed a more or less monarchal system.www.nationalgeographic.com/ngbeyond/rings/influences.html