The price for France to sell 36 Rafales? Billions, page 1

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Topic started on 15-9-2009 @ 11:37 AM by FredT

The president of Brazil has announced thaty his country is in negotiations to purchase 36 Rafales from France. What did France have to do to get that deal?

The final contracts signed on 7 September cover licence production of 50 Eurocopter EC-725 helicopter (€1.85 billion), and a submarine package comprised of four Scorpène-type boats, construction of a related shipyard and naval base in Itaguai (Rio de Janeiro state), and technical assistance for the Brazilian design and construction of a nuclear-powered submarine (€6.8 billion). These contracts are being largely financed by loans totalling €6.1 billion extended by a pool of French banks www.defpro.com...

A Nuclear submarine? What next? Are the French going to sell them a SSBN too?

Further, under the terms of the agreement, the Brazilian MoD will open negotiations with GIE Rafale (Dassault Aviation, Thales and SNECMA) for the planned purchase of 36 Rafale fighters for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) under the FX-2 programme, plus an option for another 84 aircraft. On the other hand, France will formally join the ongoing Brazilian programme for the development of the KC-390 military transport aircraft and will provide technical support, while the French Air Force will eventually place a first order for ten planes.www.defpro.com...

Hmmm, and prop up an Emrbraer program. All this to see a few jets.

Sure every country does this, but whent its the US wow look at the complaints. When its the EU? Its all well and good.

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 11:59 AM by Dermo

Originally posted by FredT
Sure every country does this, but whent its the US wow look at the complaints. When its the EU? Its all well and good.

You know, thats a good point.

Brazil are already a Nuclear power though, they have a number of reactors.

Also, are they in any way hostile to the West? They wouldn't exactly be deemed as a threat would they?

reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 01:14 PM by kilcoo316

Originally posted by FredT
Sure every country does this, but whent its the US wow look at the complaints. When its the EU? Its all well and good.

WHAT?!?!

You not remember the bitching there was when the Brits sold Eurofighter to the Saudis?

There was a helluva lot, and still is, of arguments concerning the actions taken to 'grease the track' so to speak.

reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 04:25 AM by Redhercules

A Nuclear submarine? What next? Are the French going to sell them a SSBN too?

Crazy Brazil!!!

Crazy France!!!

reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 04:28 AM by mazzroth

Its well known that Brazil is totally owned by the European banks, its been bankrupted and would no doubt be bombed by the "Yanks" if it wasn't on the globalist's side.

reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 04:45 AM by Redhercules

I suspect that the next product which France want to sell is "Eiffel Tower "!!!

France, your decision is wrong

reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 06:04 PM by xmotex

Brazil is the leading economic & military power in South America by far, and a strong strategic partner & ally of the US. The French (also a major US ally, all BSing aside) are pursuing a defense & industrial relationship with Brazil.

I fail to see any threat here, Brazil is hardly what you'd call militarily adventurous anyway.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 01:42 AM by FredT

reply to post by xmotex

I dont really see it as a threat. It was more along the lines of what it takes to sell a jet these days.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 01:47 AM by SLAYER69

Well they aint the only ones making deals.

Major arms deals by Latin American countries

(Reuters) - Venezuela's new weapons deals have spread fears of a South American arms race and put President Hugo Chavez where he is happiest -- challenging U.S. power and playing to his home crowd.

South American nations are spending billions bulking up the military to defend rugged jungle and mountain borders as well as oil and mineral reserves. However, analysts say the region faces few real external threats.

Following are some details about arms purchases by major Latin American countries in recent years:

Official: Russian arms sales to set new record

MOSCOW—Russian arms sales are set to reach a new post-Soviet record this year, a top official said Tuesday.

Russia's weapons exports will exceed $8 billion this year, Russian news agencies quoted Mikhail Dmitriyev, head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, as saying.

Arms sales have grown at a quick pace, reaching a post-Soviet record of $7.5 billion last year and on track to surpass that for 2008.

According to the latest report by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Russia accounted for a quarter of global arms sales in 2003-2007, coming a close second after the United States.

While China and India have been the leading customers, Russia recently also has struck big weapons deals with Venezuela, Algeria and Iran.

I wonder what exactly was on that "lost" Russian ship??

S300 surface-to-air missile system to Iran,
Russia ratchets up US tensions with arms sales to Iran and Venezuela

Russia defied the United States yesterday by announcing plans to sell military hardware to Iran and Venezuela.

The head of the state arms exporter said that he was negotiating to sell antiaircraft systems to Iran despite American objections. Russia has already delivered 29 Tor-M1 missile systems under a $700 million (£386 million) deal with Iran in 2005.

“Contacts between our countries are continuing and we do not see any reason to suspend them,” Anatoli Isaikin, the general director of Rosoboronexport, told the RIA-Novosti news agency at an arms fair in South Africa.

Reports have circulated for some time that the Kremlin is preparing to sell its S300 surface-to-air missile system to Iran, offering greater protection against a possible US or Israeli attack on the Islamic republic’s nuclear facilities. The missiles have a range of more than 90 miles (150km).

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 06:23 AM by kilcoo316

Going a little political here....

Purchasing anti-aircraft systems is not exactly an aggressive move. Yes, you can deny airspace to others, but you cannot exactly invade a country with them.

On the S-300.... there were links where Chavez declared the rockets had a range of 300km... isn't that more into S-400 territory?

Would the Russians sell the S-400?

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 08:44 AM by Fang

The Brazilians desire for a long range/endurance submarine capability is understandable when you consider their growing off shore oil interests. They also have a lot of civil nuclear experience, and therefore a fair degree of of experience with reactors and fuel. Their relations with Argentina have at times been strained and Venezuela is re-equipping its air force. This deal would give Brazil the most able air force in the region. They wanted a multi role aircraft (particularly a naval strike ability) so I suppose the Rafale makes sense. I would have personally gone for the cheaper Gripen but its US technology and limited tech. transfer (although the Swedes make lovely conventional subs) would have been a disincentive. The French seem to have got themselves a Brazilian 'Al Yamamah' deal.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 02:23 AM by BLV12

reply to post by FredT

It's called offsets and what not, get over it.

It is two sovereign states doing business, which benefits both.

What do you mean, what is the cost?

The French are loaning billions to Brazil. Brazil in turn is buying French warplanes, helicopters, and subs. The French are also going to assist Brazil to develop an SSN.

So what?

I don't see what the big deal is about all this?

It's a good deal for France as it secures the first export order for the Rafale, plus they export a bunch of other stuff, and good for Brazil because they will get assistance from experienced people in SSN development.

Win win for both countries.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 02:40 AM by FredT

Originally posted by BLV12
reply to post by FredT

It's called offsets and what not, get over it.

Really No way

Yes I get that no?

If you bothered to read the OP, as I noted that how things get done. But when the US does it its decried but when the EU does it its "good business"

[edit on 9/24/09 by FredT]

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 02:57 AM by waynos

This appears to me to be a case of France and Brazil replicating the transatlantic trade link that the USA and Britian already enjoy. No harm in that.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 03:02 AM by FredT

Originally posted by waynos
This appears to me to be a case of France and Brazil replicating the transatlantic trade link that the USA and Britian already enjoy. No harm in that.

Never said there was and the business of selling jets these days goes far beyond basic offsets and the like.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 03:24 AM by waynos

Its nothing new really though Fred. Back in 1991 Boeing gave the UK a 100% offset deat to secure the RAF order for the E-3, and after the failure of the Nimrod AEW there wasn't even any competition for the deal.

One of the more interesting aspects of the arrangement is the French order for the C-390. I think the UK should at least be looking in this direction too. Ironically, when we last bought a type from Embraer, the Tucano, it was produced in the UK by Shorts, who are now wholly owned by Bombardier, Embraers biggest rival.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 08:19 AM by BLV12

reply to post by FredT

When has anyone complained?

And when countries do complain about what the US is doing, ie foreign policy, and with good reason because it often does not even taken into consideration the long term ramifications(see the Balkans and the radicalisation of muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo by jihadists fresh out of the middle east), the US doesn't listen.

I've yet to see Europe complain about US military sales and offsets to friendly countries.

Give us examples if your so confident.

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