In The Name of God

Recent events on a local and global scale has made me wonder what is making so many kill or seek to kill others in the name of God, whatever you call that "God".

First, in the world of Islam Allah (God) Muslims have a word known as Jihad or "Holy war"

Through the faith of Islam many are able to give justification to barbaric acts based on a FAITH in a God... some believe that this God wants them wage war on all non-believers in a "jihad".

They seem so strong in their faith that they are willing to kill or be killed as long as it is seen as an act that will praise "Allah".

But is their God any more twisted or evil than the God in christian culture or is the evil aspect only relative to the view of faith that individual person has?... Can religion for some be a form of insanity?

We have all seen the acts of Islamic Terrorist Groups such as Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad.. and many others.. their acts of murder and terror speak for themselves.... All a part of God's (Allah's) will?

What about the lesser known acts said to have been done in the name of God in recent times?

Jim Jones who lead scores to suicide and murder in South America because he believed that was what God wanted.

Andrea Yates who drowned her children because God told her to do it.

Deanna Laney who bashed her sons skulls in because God told her to do it.

Many who knew these people long before they found faith said they were "normal people"

Jim Jones

Deanna Laney Case


Andrea Yates Case

Jihad

These are just a few examples, the scarey part is ... there are thousands more... and all through the history of Human Kind.

Just who the hell is this God to these people?

What can make someone twist a faith that is peaceful into acts of pure evil?

Is religion a form of insanity in itself?... Or is this just a human condition that could infect anyone?

I am worried that this killing, suicide, murder and insanity in the name of God, Allah or whatever you call it, will indeed lead the human race to the war of wars. A battle of faiths western/christian culture against Islam.

Only I am not a religious person, so what side am I on?... Is there a God for me?... A god for the sane?

We can look away from the base issue of conflict in this world all we want.. but as I see it this conflict is driven by faith in a God in one form or another... It is the way those on all sides can deal with their acts of evil.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Who is this God?

And why are so many committing acts of evil in his name?

Gazz




[Edited on 15-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Yeah, it has made me wonder as well. I believe all the wars going on the world now are between belief systems, namely the world's major organized religions.
Here is a quote from a website:

They are key leaders of these groups, driven by extreme, twisted religious concepts.
The source of their philosophies?
Leo Strauss (US government), Muslim Wahhabis (Bin Laden & Al Qeada),
Christian Fundamentalism (Bush & Ashcroft), Zionism (Sharon & US government).

That quote is from this webpage:

www.worldmessenger.20m.com..../searchindex.html

I've read in places that the Illuminati cultists have an agenda of dividing the masses under religions. It works. You'll also recognize that the leaders of these religions have tons of cash and pretty much don't follow them to the letter. They mostly use them to control the masses of followers that they have. People like the Bush's, Pope, Osama, etc. They all have a lot of money, but they pervert the teachings. The thing is, when they try to force countries to conform, people die.

If it was up to God, we would all be peaceful towards each other, but evil prevails in this world.

The Christian God and the Muslim God are one in the same. The Muslims have a different outlook on how they think that God wants to be pleased. The murders in the name of god are more than likely due to a mental illness. I dont understand why people kill in the name of god but i'm sure they have some strong belief that makes them do so.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
First, in the world of Islam Allah (God) Muslims have a word known as Jihad or "Holy war"

Through the faith of Islam many are able to give justification to barbaric acts based on a FAITH in a God... some believe that this God wants them wage war on all non-believers in a "jihad".

They seem so strong in their faith that they are willing to kill or be killed as long as it is seen as an act that will praise "Allah".

But is their God any more twisted or evil than the God in christian culture or is the evil aspect only relative to the view of faith that individual person has?... Can religion for some be a form of insanity?

These groups hide behind and pervert the true meaning of religious texts to further their selfish and greedy goals. The Bible and the Quran both teach peace, it�s only when radical interpreters attempt to recruit support and gain acceptance for their cause by finding precedence in these works.

There is a difference, however between the word, struggle and jihad. The word "struggle" does not connote the sense of reward or worship in the religious sense of the word. But when the word jihad became a part of Islamic terminology, the sense of reward or worship came to be associated with it, that is to say, if struggle is struggle in the simple sense of word, jihad means a struggle which is an act of worship, the engagement of which earns reward to the person concerned.
The word Jihad in the Quran
The word Jihad or its derivative has appeared in the Quran for four times in the same literal sense, as we find in the Arabic dictionary. At each place it has been used in the sense of effort and strength and not in the sense of war and fighting.
The first verse in the Quran in this connection is: "Say: 'If your father, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the commerce in which you fear a decline, the homes in which you love, are dearer to you than God. His Apostle and the striving in his cause (Jihad fi sabilihii), then wait until God shall fulfill his decree. God does not guide the rebellious." (9:24)

www.jammu-kashmir.com...

Monotheism - the belief in one (usually masculine) god originated in the time of Ancient Egypt, during the time of Pharoah Akhenaten. From that concept came the gods of Judaism, which led to Christianity and Islam.

The problem with the three latter religions is firstly that they deny the feminine principal (the Goddess) and secondly that they believe that their god is the one and only. Hence you get groups of people who believe that their task in life is to convert others (in which ever manner as possible), in order to fulfill the demands of their deity.

The pagan beliefs, for example Wicca, Asatru etc, recognise multiple gods and goddesses. Odin, Thor, Freya and Loki are not omniscient, neither can they defeat death. At the time of Ragnarok, the gods will die in battle.

The Wiccan gods in contrast are dualistic deities - one male one female. It is only monotheistic religions that are imbalanced, hence the level of violence and destruction - there is no female to balance the male. (Although the Catholic faith reconises Mary as Jesus' mother and in a way she is considered a 'goddess').

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Pisky]

Originally posted by Pisky
Monotheism - the belief in one (usually masculine) god originated in the time of Ancient Egypt, during the time of Pharoah Akhenaten. From that concept came the gods of Judaism, which led to Christianity and Islam.

The problem with the three latter religions is firstly that they deny the feminine principal (the Goddess)

Sorry to disagree with you, but this is absolutely incorrect. All three of the monotheistic desert religions believe in the feminine aspect of God, or rather that God is beyond gender.
I offer you Genesis 1:27 from the English Standard Version of the Bible

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And I'll have you know that the God from "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" (Genesis 1:1), is the feminine plural "Elohim."

I'm sorry to say this, because it sounds angry (because I am frustrated), but the idea that Christians, Muslims, or Jews believe God to be masculine in the sense that a human being might be masculine, is simply propoganda from certain religions such as Wiccanism. Now, I have no problem whatsoever with Wiccanism per se, but I am very very tired of some Wiccans (probably not true Wiccans) who keep claiming that Christians believe all kinds of things they just don't.

and secondly that they believe that their god is the one and only.

Can't disagree with that, that is a fair assessment.

Hence you get groups of people who believe that their task in life is to convert others (in which ever manner as possible), in order to fulfill the demands of their deity.

That's a pretty big jump in logic there. The demands of my God, as I understand them, are that people be allowed to worship Him as they see fit, and that I should not interfere with the beliefs of others (I know I'm using the word "Him" to describe God, but this is because the neuter in English, "It," implies nonsexuality, while I believe that God is beyond Sexuality, as all sexualities are contained within Him).

The pagan beliefs, for example Wicca, Asatru etc, recognise multiple gods and goddesses. Odin, Thor, Freya and Loki are not omniscient, neither can they defeat death. At the time of Ragnarok, the gods will die in battle.

I'll buy it, although I don't know why pagan beliefs would centre on the Norse Pantheon. What of Hu? Or Astarte? Or even good old Jupiter or Zeus?

The Wiccan gods in contrast are dualistic deities - one male one female. It is only monotheistic religions that are imbalanced, hence the level of violence and destruction - there is no female to balance the male.

I'm trying very hard not to call this BS. The idea that thoughtful Christians (as opposed to people who only mouth the words) believe that God is male in the same sense that I am male is absolutely absurd. Try reading even C.S. Lewis, or Maimonides... no serious modern Theologian will tell you that God is "male."

(Although the Catholic faith reconises Mary as Jesus' mother and in a way she is considered a 'goddess').

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Pisky]

This is a BIG sore point between some protestants and Catholics. Can't say more about that without writing a book.

By the way, I don't know why you say that monotheism originated with Akhenaten. Many scholars would disagree with you. The concept of Monotheism may go back to the origins of Zoroastrianism or Brahminism. (Yes, I know Zoroastrianism is often currently thought to be dualistic, but in origin it may have been Monotheistic. The Rig Veda offers little doubt that early Brahminism included a uniting principle, and a central, Supreme and universal being).

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I'll buy it, although I don't know why pagan beliefs would centre on the Norse Pantheon. What of Hu? Or Astarte? Or even good old Jupiter or Zeus?

Firstly, I'm not Wiccan. I am closer to Asatru than to any other pantheon, hence my discription of the Norse gods and goddesses. The Romans, Greeks etc are just as valid.

And I'll have you know that the God from "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" (Genesis 1:1), is the feminine plural "Elohim."

I am well aware of the meaning of 'Elohim'. Maybe it means a pantheon such as the Norse, maybe it means the Annunaki. I don't know. I wasn't aware that the word is feminine. Maybe it means 'Godesses' after all.

The demands of my God, as I understand them, are that people be allowed to worship Him as they see fit, and that I should not interfere with the beliefs of others

You are right whe you say that people shouldn't be allowed to interfere with other people's belief structures, but the problem is that many Christians and Christian-derivative faiths (JW, Christadelphians) do see proselytisation as a fundamental tenet of their beliefs.

Try reading even C.S. Lewis, or Maimonides... no serious modern Theologian will tell you that God is "male."

Thanks for that - I'll give them a go.

This is a BIG sore point between some protestants and Catholics. Can't say more about that without writing a book.

Very true. I'm an ex-Catholic myself so I'm well aware of the difficulties.

Originally posted by Pisky

[deletia]

You are right whe you say that people shouldn't be allowed to interfere with other people's belief structures, but the problem is that many Christians and Christian-derivative faiths (JW, Christadelphians) do see proselytisation as a fundamental tenet of their beliefs.

[deletia]

Well, no doubt, but whenever I'm around certain Wiccans I know, they sound like they're trying to convince me that I'm wrong to be a Christian and should convert over to Wiccanism because Christianity believes in a "Male" God while their much better religion believes in a male and a female god. Now, I don't begrudge them arguing with me... they should, if they feel that the health of my soul is at risk, and I'm glad of it. But to on the one hand proselytise about how a straw-man version of Christianity is flawed because it only believes in a "Male" God and on the other hand to get upset about Christianity because some members prosyletise is a little rich.

On the other hand, if a Wiccan is content to let me believe as I believe and is not going to get upset about the imaginary idea that I am a sexist because I am a Christian, more power to them. (By the way, I should note that I personally believe that Christ (through some method I don't understand) redeemed everyone's sins, regardless of their faith, so I do not feel that people's souls are in danger if I do not proselytise. You do understand that most people who prosyletise do it out of genuine, if misguided, concern for other people, right?)

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Quote"the problem is that many Christians and Christian-derivative faiths (JW, Christadelphians) do see proselytisation as a fundamental tenet of their beliefs."

What exactly is wrong with proselytisation? That's what Christ did and encouraged his people to do? They share because they think they have what you need. Beats the # what that Earnst Aingsly spouts on Sunday morning, although not as funny.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by intrepid]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Sorry to disagree with you, but this is absolutely incorrect. All three of the monotheistic desert religions believe in the feminine aspect of God, or rather that God is beyond gender.
I offer you Genesis 1:27 from the English Standard Version of the Bible

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And I'll have you know that the God from "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" (Genesis 1:1), is the feminine plural "Elohim."

Okay Alex you totally blew me away with these ying/yang concept of the Xtian/Islam/Jew god.

Is this an interpretation you have made or do one of these denominations actually preach it. I only ask because I have a Catholic mother/Protestant father and all the churches I have attended always referred to God the father. Tell us more.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Well, no doubt, but whenever I'm around certain Wiccans I know, they sound like they're trying to convince me that I'm wrong to be a Christian and should convert over to Wiccanism because Christianity believes in a "Male" God while their much better religion believes in a male and a female god

Unfortunately thats true - many Wiccans do just that. The question I have is are they true Wiccans, or are they 'Buffy' and 'Charmed' wannabes ?

You do understand that most people who prosyletise do it out of genuine, if misguided, concern for other people, right?

Yes - I understand that. They are trying to save the soul of the person they are talking to. This is a laudable trait, but fails to take account of one thing - everyone is given a free will. My belief is that people should be able to make their own choices after having been given the relevant information. I don't like people trying to pressure me.

Originally posted by Bleys
I have a Catholic mother/Protestant father and all the churches I have attended always referred to God the father. Tell us more.

Thats why I believe that the monotheristic view of 'god' is male. God is always spoken of as 'Lord', 'Father' or 'Allah'.

Originally posted by Bleys

[deletia]

Okay Alex you totally blew me away with these ying/yang concept of the Xtian/Islam/Jew god.

Is this an interpretation you have made or do one of these denominations actually preach it. I only ask because I have a Catholic mother/Protestant father and all the churches I have attended always referred to God the father. Tell us more.

Well, I'm very flattered that you were "blown away." I will tell you all I know, if you promise not to call me an Xtian again (Also, very few Jews would be pleased to hear you refer to the Most High as "the Jew God" )

Do one of the denominations actually teach it? Well, to my knowledge, no denomination has anything to say on the matter. The issue of God's "sex" is not really a "weekly churchgoing" kind of thing. However, serious modern theologians would not disagree with me. Not just Christians, too.

Here is a page on a Sikh view

Here is a Christian view

Here is a Jewish view

Here is another Christian view

I won't drown you in links, though. I should note that in the Kabbalistic view (which is of course a subset of the Jewish view, and which I have studied sparingly with a brilliant professor from my city) the "emanations" (potentialities? powers? I'm not sure what word is correct for this concept - The Sephirioth, if you know what I mean) are some male, and some female.

Keep in mind that the Shekinah, the presence of God to which Moses spoke and which descended upon the Tabernacle in Sinai etc. was UNDOUBTEDLY female.

Now, as for the "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost" thing, it is incredibly complicated. C.S. Lewis tells us that this metaphor is used for a number of reasons. We must keep in mind that all three aspects of the Trinity are co-eternal, so it would be wrong to think of the Son of God existing "after" the Father. Nonetheless, one way we think about the relationship is a father-child relationship. We think of the Son as male because that which it represents, the Word, the Logos, was indwelling in Jesus Christ, who happened to be male. Now, why a Father? Partly because, at the time, the Father was associated with the creative energy, which is appropriate for the Father (perhaps Keter in the Kabbalistic imagery). The Holy Ghost is sometimes thought of as female, which would create a neat parallel to the Kabalistic image (Father = Keter, Son= Chochmah, Holy Ghost = Binah). Anyway, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit way of speaking is a metaphor for what words cannot say (since God is ineffable). There is a great deal more to this, but as they say, I could write a book

One more thing: Maimonides teaches us that although God's body is desribed in Torah for the purpose of teaching, God cannot have a body (in fact, Maimonides teachs us that we cannot speak in positives about God, only in negatives, e.g. God is not male, God is not female, God is not bounded, etc.)

I appreciate your interest. I strongly reccomend Maimonides' "Guide for the Perplexed," although you must keep in mind that it was written in the middle ages and some sexism may have crept in

1.) there is God the father, he is the ruler of the house.
2.) there is God the son, Jesus Christ, the kinsman redeemer, comming to buy, back his church and make them part of the family, again (gives the idea of us being God, in part)
3.)There's the Holy Spirit, which pleads for you to the Father, when you don't know what to say, that stays by your side while we wait for Christ to come back for us...understanding the context of the time period, sounds just like a mother
(shh! don't tell the church, they're likely to get upset!)

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
The Holy Ghost is sometimes thought of as female, which would create a neat parallel to the Kabalistic image (Father = Keter, Son= Chochmah, Holy Ghost = Binah). Anyway, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit way of speaking is a metaphor for what words cannot say (since God is ineffable).

That intrigues me. The implication is that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary to create Jesus. Yet the holy spirit is female.

This is all great information, and far more than I expected so far... all very good read too to all!!

Now what does it all have to do with why so many kill or commit acts of evil in the name of a faith or God?

ALL opinions are welcome here!

Gazz

God is love.

Anyone not loving God before everything and not loving their neighbour as themself (forgiving them) is not doing God's will.

If everyone was to forgive instead of fighting it out because they insist they are right then the world would be alot better place.

Originally posted by Pisky

That intrigues me. The implication is that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary to create Jesus. Yet the holy spirit is female.

But, again, you see, this is based on the false idea that the elements of the Trinity have gender per se in the same way that humans have gender, and this is not true. If, when Jesus was concieved within Mary, you imagine a physical God coming down and actually having sex with Mary... I'm sorry, but that is a misunderstanding.

God concieved Jesus within Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, I'm no theologian, but allow me to theorise on the meaning of this here. The Holy Spirit is that aspect of God which binds, a manifestation of the "love" between the principle of primal, elementary existence within God (the Father) and the principle of the logos (the Son). Thus, in essence, the Holy Spirit represents the interaction between the motivational force of existence and the force which forms the universe as a form. Now, what about conception? Keep in mind, as C.S. Lewis would say, that although in ordinary human terms a man and a woman have a baby, it is really God who creates the baby (because the man and the woman are creatures of God, following the laws of God which are the laws of Nature). When God created a baby in Mary, he was doing nothing different that what is done when any other child is born, but in this case (for reasons I'm not sure I personally understand) he chose in this case to create a baby without a human father.

This is of a similar tenor as other miracles preformed by Jesus. God makes the fish multiply and the grain grow... we see this every day. But Jesus did the same thing with the loaves and fishes... he made the amount of fish multiply, and the amound of bread increase... the same miracle that God does every day, simply sped up so that humans would realise that all nature is a miracle of God.

The problem here, I think, Pisky, is that you keep thinking of God as if he were just a really amazing human being with special powers... this is not so. God is an entirely different kind of being than humans, and thus He is "above" sexuality, while containing all sexualities.

Originally posted by TenPin
God is love.

Anyone not loving God before everything and not loving their neighbour as themself (forgiving them) is not doing God's will.

If everyone was to forgive instead of fighting it out because they insist they are right then the world would be alot better place.

Hear hear!!! This is exactly the central message of Islam and Christianity, and one of the most important messages of Judaism.

Luke 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
12:53 "They will be divided, father R610 against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
12:54 And He was also saying to the crowds, "When R611 you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, `A shower is coming,' and so it turns out.
12:55 "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, `It will be a hot R612 day,' and it turns out that way.
12:56 "You hypocrites! You R613 know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why F321 do you not analyze this present time?
12:57 "And why R614 do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?

Joh 14:27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

As long as there is a different faith, where people believe that they are right (both those who actually are AND those who are not), and they be not peacemakers, there will be fighting: hence the first quote. What Christ brought, as a teaching was going to rock the world to it's knees, and whether right or wrong, there was going to be bloodshed. He knew it, though he tought his followers to be lovers of peace, and prayed in the Garden for oneness, he already knew that there was to be fighting, antagonistic, divisive people.

John 7:40 Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, "This certainly is the R474 Prophet."
7:41 Others were saying, "This is the F90 Christ." Still others were saying, "Surely R475 the F90 Christ is not going to come from Galilee, is He?
7:42 "Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the R476 descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"
7:43 So a R477 division occurred in the crowd because of Him.
7:44 Some R478 of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.

Joh 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath." But others were saying, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?" And there was a division among them.
Joh 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

The scriptures themselve are used to divide: More in refference to, "If you're doing something wrong, it'll be the first to cut you (combined with you conscience)...:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

And there's also rules for how to deal with people set out to divide God's Church...


look, the whole of the scriptures point out that we are to be as peaceful and submissive as possible, but the practicality of the matter is that, as long as someone beleives they are right, and DOES NOT know how to control him/herself with respect to others of different viewpoints, there will be fighting. Christ caused division just by being himself, because people see waht they want to see. Just as much as we are children of God, ever since the fall, we've also have been called Children of wrath. Just think about those things that upset you to the point where you no longer think, you just act. Have you ever tried to hurt someone else's kid in front of them? (never did myself) They will tear you apart, then ask questions later. If it's that important to you, your reason will be impaired, so you learn to control yourself, in specific situations. Not everyone controls themselves when it comes to religion.

Originally posted by jlc163

[deletia]

John 7:40 Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, "This certainly is the R474 Prophet."
7:41 Others were saying, "This is the F90 Christ." Still others were saying, "Surely R475 the F90 Christ is not going to come from Galilee, is He?
[deletia]

[deletia]

I'm sorry... I agree exactly with what you're saying, but somehow numbers and letters snuck into your pasting of the scriptures, and I see it as "...This certainly is the R474 Prophet... This is the F90 Christ..."

Sounds like high school boys discussing cars

"Hey, have you seen the new R474 Prophet?!?!"

"Yeah, I like the detailing on the Prophet, but the F90 Christ leaves it in the dust."