CALLING ALL MILITARY! Former and current!

Originally posted by missvicky
Still don't understand how the military is protecting the civilan population here while fighting an illegal war in Iraq.

"Illegal war". Whatever.

Originally posted by missvicky
Still don't understand how the Kent State event wasn't the military opening fire on civilans.

Kent State was Guardsmen that were scared facing a huge mob and making a terrible mistake.

Being in the military, if called upon to open fire on civilians, the only thing I'll want to know is if they post on ATS. I'm shooting those people first.

First off great idea for a post. i see you have many replys i have not read them all but for my 2 cents worth, im currently serving in the armed forces in the national guard which if called to defend the states i would this is the reason i joined the military. now if the states wanted us to inisiate curfues, round people up and put them in consentration camps or try.... noticed i said try... to fallow an UNLAWFULL ORDER. you bet your sweet a** i would tell whoever it was to kiss my american A** and i would arest them and contain them and make sure they were ucmj to the max. i signed up to protect the people in the states. if there was a major car accident and i was the only one who had propor training and the tools knowing they were military issue to save a life i dont care what the military would do to me if i used the military suply to save lives thats why i joined. iv told a many of higher ranking officials to f*** off and never been ucmj because they knew they were wrong and iv had a few ucmj to where they were issued and artical 15, loss of pay loss of rank and transfered to a diffrent unit to be wached by the mp's. before any mission is conducted there is what is called an ROE- rules of engagement. they are pre determened and changed due to the mission as needed. and if the military ever said that we had to go after our own belive me the unit im in would have a sirious talk without any kind of ranking officer and come to turms of what to do about sompthing as illegal as that. no person should be in a consontratin camp unless you declare war on the us or sompthing major. so to awnser your question. if the us wanted us to go to war agenst our citizens it better be terrorists or im staning next to my fellow americans and would tell the unit kiss my a**.

The Guard should never have been called to Kent State. These guys weren't prepared for what they saw in front of them.

The mood of the period was very, very anti-military. I didn't shoot her, but the little bimbo who spat right in my face at San Francisco International did get a big thump right on top of her head with my fist.

Didn't even have time to think about it.

And the cops? I don't know. They were looking, and I looked back, but they just turned and drifted away.

I've been hitchhiking in uniform and had everything you can think of thrown at me out of the passing cars, from beer bottles to full beer cans.

So the Guard weren't trained or prepared, they were taken aback by the hostile crowds, and if the truth be known, they too, may have a tiny bit of pent-up hostility.

To this day I still can't fault them. They were placed in a lose/lose situation.

And they lost.

Regardless of your opinion of the National Guard training or lack there of, it still is a fact and precident of our military firing on civilians. I'm sure they "were just following orders", and if so was it an illegal order? And if they weren't following orders, then they were just pissed and opened fire.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


It has been my understanding other countries are going to be asked to assist US with this so called forced Vaccines

reply to post by missvicky


But you ignore testimony that they heard 'a shot', which is no more or less improbable than most of the subjects discussed here. Further, the constant harping on the KU shooting shows it to be the exception that proves the rule. Were the US military the American-butchering mob that some believe, there would have been many more 'incidents'. During the Reagan Administration, various protesters (anti-nuke, anti-Contra, anti-School of the Americas, etc) 'protested' by entering areas where deadly force by security forces would have been justified. However, the only death that I can recall is one individual who lay down in front of a munitions train in CA. His demise was a function of Darwin, not a trigger-happy military.

Originally posted by missvicky
Regardless of your opinion of the National Guard training or lack there of, it still is a fact and precident of our military firing on civilians. I'm sure they "were just following orders", and if so was it an illegal order? And if they weren't following orders, then they were just pissed and opened fire.

Other than Kent State, when did US military fire on US civilians?

Put yourself in the boots of the Guardsmen. Regardless if you have a weapon or not, facing a mob isn't something that's fun. They had M1 Garands. 8 rounds aren't going to hold off many if that mob decided to overrun them.

This thread asks the question: would the military fire on US civilians. Answer: Yes, they already have. Example: Kent State.
It doesn't matter how the national Gaurd "felt". Either they fired or they didn't and if they didn't I guess those protestors died of swine flu.

I wrote in a prior post, "That many will take advantage of a situation, if it benefits them in some way." I stand by that remark...for it is what I see everyday, everywhere. Not just the military. The problem is that it will also screw over some unsuspecting person as a result.

Where the slacker, and advantage taker is always looking for "the gravy job",
so that they can just skate along...it makes others have to pick up and do the job of them that think they are to good to " have to do that!"

Same applies to them that would blindly follow an order that they know violates the constitutional rights of a fellow citizen. Only under Martial Law situations, does the citizen loose certain rights temporarily. Martial Law cannot be imposed permanently. Therefore, the rights temporarily suspended must be restored.

All employees of the State and Federal government, take oaths to support or defend the State and Federal Constitutions. This includes the Military, and Police.
Where I have issue, is when you are told that the President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of all U.S. military forces...and you must obey his orders!
Top Brass officials are the ones who are supposed to be between their men, and the President. If you have an idiot or a cloaked anti American in the oval office...who would then gives orders for para military or police to violate American citizens rights, by issuing "Open Fire" orders...then it behooves the upper echelon of leaders to thwart those orders. ( and quite possibly remove the President from office by force )

The subordinate military person, shouldn't have to "rethink" or "decide" whether or not they will follow orders, effectively putting their necks on the line! It is up to their Commanders to make sure their forces are being legally and effectively utilized. When they aren't, then it is their duty to show their back bone, and refuse to abuse their personel.

Just as it would be immoral and unjust to send men into a situation knowing they will be slaughtered mercilessly... you wouldn't give state or federal employees orders to hurt our citizens. Nor is it legal to use foreign troops to do the dirty work. ( Posse Comitatus Act )

What is the duty of every civilian citizen? To know the Constitution, The Bill of Rights, and all Local, State laws where they live. I am not implying that we all have to be Constitutional scholars or lawyers...
But, to be ignorant of the basics...sets you up to be abused by a "Rogue Agent." It is also in everyone's best interests, to at least have a Lawyers Business Card in your purse or wallet, should you find that you need one.

I have always advocated that we all obey the law, and not blatantly violate it because of selfish interests. This especially applies to all state and federal firearms laws. Do not do something selfish and stupid. Even if you feel you are being violated by some jack booted goon squad thug...know your rights, quote them respectfully, and hand them your attorney's card! If for some reason you are detained, or even arrested, remain respectful, and maintain your dignity. Don't start swearing and hollering obscenities, and making threats. If you do, they will surly dig you a hole.

All it is going to take is another moron like McVey and company, that will make the federal forces come down on us all with an iron fist. Something that the Anti-Gunners in Washington D.C. are waiting for.

We have an administration that has some damned odd, and very screwy ideas about where they intend to mislead this nation. Times are going to be rough, tough, miserable, strife full, nervous and tense...everyone is on edge, and unfortunately, some will have an itchy trigger finger. Don't be one of them.

If you suspect that somebody is about to do something that will harm many innocent lives, it is your duty as citizen, to report it. Stay vigilant and stay safe, and use your brain.

Following up on what I posted...it is also the duty every citizen to know what the hell their elected officials are doing, or not doing. Nothing they do is a secret. Every word spoken and written by them is a matter of public record.

Actions are deeds. Deeds show the true nature and thinking of the person.
What is done, is done. No point lying about it...because the truth is on record.

Lately, they are all showing their true colors. They are all going to scramble and try to save face during the August summer break. They will lie to our faces. It has already begun.

Nearly all Politicians are deceivers and liars. They will pander to and say whatever it takes to an audience, to retain their cushy jobs. When they disregard or disrespect their constituents, by ignoring the real issues, and pander along party lines, to curry favor and profits selfishly, they have to be fired. Voted out! Sent packing! Hit the Bricks! Adios...

I feel that the seething can of snakes that writhes and hisses in the capital, needs extermination. I intend to vote against every incumbent that is up for re-election. Regardless of their records or past performances. I want them all out. Spare none. This is what they fear. This is what will keep them in line forever more. There has to be a major tsunami of voter rage sent to Washington D.C. that they will never forget. The only thing that will do it...is a massive tidal wave of voter anger that sends them all packing.

The second thing is to send a protest vote of "No Confidence" in the President...and ask for a censure and redress of his policies. The United States of America is being literally sold out, and up the creek without a paddle. Put a stop to it! If you don't, you are not going to like where we end up later.

Last, let every major national media ( NBC, ABC, CBS ) company know that you are on to them.
Let their advertisers know, you will not buy their products, because they support and advertise on those networks...who broadcast unmitigated propaganda and outright disinformation.

If you aren't aware of this...it is time to wise up!

I think you need to follow your own advise C&D. Democracy is a scam, it has been a scam from the moment Plato put it in writing. You may as well wipe your arse on your voting slip for all the good it will do.

Sonic Weapons Used In Iraq Positioned At Congressional Town Hall Meetings
www.prisonpl... anet.com/ sonic-weapons- used-in-iraq- positioned- at-congressional -town-hall- meetings. html

Miriam Raftery
East County Magazine
Saturday, September 12, 2009

“Long-range acoustic devices [LRADs] for crowd control can be extremely dangerous. These are used in Iraq to control insurgents. They can cause serious and lasting harm to humans…We want to know WHY our Sheriff Dept has this weapon,” Sal Magallanez of San Diego-based Liberty One Radio said in an e-mail sent to East County Magazine, prompting a joint investigation.

The device was stationed by San Diego County Sheriff deputies at a recent town hall forum hosted by Congresswoman Susan Davis (D-San Diego) in Spring Valley and at a subsequent town hall with Congressman Darrell Issa (R-San Diego). The Davis Rally drew an estimated 1,300-1,500 people, including vocal conservative and liberal protest groups.

A public records search conducted by East County Magazine has confirmed that the device is an LRAD 500-x manufactured by San Diego-based American Technology Corporation (ATC). Capable of use as an effective loudspeaker, the LRAD also has the ability to emit a deafening tone aimed at incapacitating and dispersing a crowd without use of lethal force.

“It’s very concerning,” Kevin Keenan, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said. “ It is fine for the Sheriff’s Department to have new less-than-lethal weapons, but for their interactions with individuals these still-dangerous weapons need to be used only as substitutes for firearms. They can’t be used as just another tool on the tool belt. As we’ve seen with tasers and pepper spray, these types of weapons are being used to subdue people even though they pose the risk of serious physical harm.”

He added, “Even more concerning is having these weapons for public order policing. I can imagine no situation, or am not aware of any situation that’s ever happened in San Diego County or is likely to happen that would justify using these weapons for public order policing to control a crowd. The main effect of having those weapons at public events is to chill people and chill free speech and free association.”

LRADs were developed by ATC at the request of the U.S. Navy after the attack on the U.S.S. Cole as a means of dissuading hostile invaders. ATC founder Elwood “Woody” Norris is a pioneer in sound technology who has also been instrumental in development of ultra-sound and ground penetrating radar.

Cruise ship Captain Michael Groves successfully repelled pirates off the Somali coast using non-lethal weapons including an LRAD. Groves has since filed suit against Carnival Cruise Line, claiming he suffered permanent hearing loss as a result, the BBC has reported. Navy News describes the LRAD as “louder than a jet engine” and helpfully explains that it overwhelms its targets with “sound so loud they hear it inside their heads.”

ATC initially sold LRADs primarily to the U.S. military, but has since sold products internationally and domestically. The company and its representatives have not limited sales to military, maritime and law enforcement personnel, however. Local lifeguards and even Liberty One Radio are among potential customers to whom ATC’s sales force has attempted to peddle LRADs.

Liberty One Radio host Mike Copass, a former Democratic Congressional candidate who ran against Davis, tried to interview the Sheriff’s officer who appeared to be in charge of the device, which was mounted on a Rhino all-terrain vehicle. But Magallanez said the official “acted as if he didn’t know what it was.”

East County Magazine contacted Lieutenant Anthony Ray at the Lemon Grove sheriff substation. “I was the incident commander,” said Ray, who confirmed that the device was an LRAD but was not sure of the model. “It’s a really loud speaker,” he said, adding that the device is used to assure that announcements can be heard over the din of a crowd. “We’ll often use a helicopter, but this is something portable,” he explained. The device has also been present at a sand-castle building competition in Imperial Beach and could be deployed at any large event locally, since the Sheriff’s office is sometimes subcontracted by other cities within San Diego County to provide security.

Asked if he was aware that the device had a deterrent capability that includes a directed sound loud enough to cause hearing loss, he replied, “You mean like they use in Iraq? I can’t imagine we’d do that, because it would hurt our own people at the same time…I can’t believe that we would use the kind of thing on a crowd that the military does,” he said, adding that the deputy on the Rhino was not wearing protective earphones. “There were deputies right in front, too,” he observed, but added that he would have to “go home and look this up on Google” to learn more.

In an interview last week with newly appointed Sheriff Bill Gore, formerly the Undersheriff, East County Magazine posed the following questions about LRADs.

ECM: Crowd control has been in the news with the Francine Busby pepper spray incident. Now some have expressed concern after spotting long-range acoustical devices (LRADs) at Congressional members Susan Davis and Darrell Issa town hall forums on healthcare. We understand these devices can be used as loudspeakers, to avoid need for a helicopter to address large crowds—

GORE: That’s not the primary purpose.

ECM: They’re also called sonic cannons, capable of directing a deterrent sound. They’ve been used in IRAQ on insurgents and to repel pirates.

GORE: That’s a precaution in case you need it.

ECM: LRADs can cause permanent hearing loss and other health problems. What make and model LRAD do you have, what are the guidelines for when these may be used, what training is provided, and how can you assure that your deputies and innocent bystanders won’t be hurt?

GORE: Our deputies have the required training.

He indicated that he did not consider LRAD technology to be a non-lethal weapon, such as tasers and pepper spray, then deferred other questions on this topic pending results of a public records request submitted by ECM.

However, Defense Update, a British defense contracting publication, lists LRADs as “non-lethal directed energy weapons. The publication states: “LRAD works like a highly directional, high power megaphone, able to blast sounds

continued
(such as crowd-dispersal instructions in Arabic) in a narrow beam and with great clarity at a deafening 150 decibels (50 times the human threshold of pain). LRAD can also create deafening noises which can incapacitate people within 300 meters by “firing” short bursts of intense acoustic energy.”

An article from Atomic Scientists at describes the device’s “ear-piercing siren” and confirms it has been used by U.S. Marines in Fallujah. The device has also been used by New York City Police for crowd control during the Republican National Convention. A technology article at GovPro.com states that the LRAD system “transmits powerful deterrent tones, by which piercing sound can cause pain, nausea, disorientation and possibly even hearing damage.”

Our records search confirmed that the Sheriff’s Deparment purchased an LRAD 500-X and on-site training instruction for $37,500 on July 21, 2008 supplied by the Lorimar Group, which signed an LRAD reseller agreement with ATC in 2006. In responses to questions asking whether the deterrent sound feature has been deployed locally or whether any complaints of harm have been received, the Sheriff’s office responded that no such records are available.

The manufacturer’ s specifications indicate that “The superior voice intelligibility and clarity of LRAD 500X provides a directional audio beam that can communicate with 100% intelligibility over 88 dB of background noise beyond 300 meters and capable of communicating over 2000 meters away in a benign environment. LRAD 500X operators have the ability to issue clear, authoritative verbal commands, followed with powerful deterrent tones to enhance response capabilities.” Moreover, the spec sheet indicates the device has a frequenty range of +/- 5dB over a 500 to 5kHz range, with a maximum volume of 148dB at 1 meter continuous and over 95 dB at 300 meters.

Ironically, the devices positioned at healthcare reform rallies hosted by Congressional members Susan Davis and Darrell Issa have the potential to cause serious health harm if its sonic crowd control feature is deployed, one medical professional informed East county Magazine. Dr. Mike Copass Sr. (father of radio personality Mike Copass) confirmed that “148 db, the max sound of the 500x ATC LRAD, will damage/destroy human hearing and damage, potentially, the brain.”

That detail hasn’t deterred sales. ATC media and industrial relations representative Robert Putnam informed Liberty One Media that “Business is looking really good.” He said thousands of LRAD models have been sold worldwide, hundreds have been sold in California, and that two or three units have been sold within San Diego County, but declined to release agency names.

At least one use of an LRAD deterrent sound system used against a civilian crowd of demonstrators by riot police in the former Soviet-block nation of Georgia has been recorded on video.

In an interview with East County Magazine, Putman initially denied that the Sheriff’s office had been sold an LRAD made by ATC. But when informed that Sheriff’s documents confirm the purchase, he said the company uses distributors— raising the question of how many more devices have been sold—and to whom. “ATC has 95% of the LRAD market which we helped create. Before, there was really no acoustic hailing and warning device,” he added.

Putnam objected to the term “sonic cannon”, responding, “It’s not a sound cannon. It gets their attention and hopefully gets them to comply.”

He also denied that the company’s LRADs can cause hearing problems or other health concerns. “No, not true,” he said. “You’d have to be in close proximity for several minutes in order to have any damage at all. If you willingly stand in that beam for an extended situation, then that’s your choice. There’s no way a large crowd would stay.” He said the company provides hands-on training to customers and has not had any lawsuits filed over damaged related to LRADs. The company is now offering a hand-held model, he added, which costs about $5,000 and can emit noise levels up to 135 dB. The device can also be adapted to have a high-powered light, infrared night vision, or the ability to translate commands into a foreign language.

Bullhorns are ineffective in large crowds, carrying only 20-25 yards and suffering distortion, he said. “With our LRAD, you are good to up to three kilometers. The 500-x is good for about a kilometer or a kilometer and a half.” Activation of the deterrent tone is a function of the volume control, not a separate switch, he confirmed. “But they are also highly directional, so people operating them don’t get anywhere near.”

He defended use of the technology as a non-lethal way to provide warnings and to prevent innocent people from being harmed, such as fishermen who venture too close to a military vessel, international border, or nuclear station. “The whole point is to save lives,” he said. “If you’re a bad guy and keep coming, or wear protective headgear and keep coming, then you know they are not there innocently and you ratchet up the response.”

He also revealed potential new domestic uses for the LRAD technology. “We are also excited to save wildlife,” Putnam said. “We are working on trial tests to clear birds out of runways because when a jet is taking off or landing, that’s when it is most vulnerable to a bird strike.” Such technology could potentially save passenger and crew lives as well. He also predicts the technology could be useful to prevent bird deaths from drinking tainted water at mining tailing ponds or flying into wind turbine blades at wind farms, as well as preventing damage to solar panels from bird defecations. Birds would not suffer damage unless exposed to the deterrent signal tone for several minutes, added.

Seattle Weekly has warned that an LRAD device could be “an extremely attractive implement of torture in the wrong hands—or an equally alluring engine of light terrorism in others. Imagine how easily a miscreant could trash any sort of outdoor gathering.”

That concern raises troubling questions about just how closely ATC screens potential buyers of its long-range acoustical devices.

continued


San Diego Life Guard Mike Russell told Liberty One Radio that life guards were approached by ATC about purchasing an LRAD unit similar to the LRAD-500x seen at the Susan Davis rally. An ATC sales represented “tried to sell it to the Lifeguard service for focused warnings in the middle of crowds or in the water,” he recalled, adding that the equipment was not purchased due to the high cost.

Asked by East County Magazine whether the sales rep disclosed the unit’s weapons capacity, Russell replied, “I was just told that it could be used “like an audio laser-beam” to speak to an individual or small group up to 300 yards away, without disturbing the people all along the beach. This seemed like great potential, people entering ripc urrents, or even in rip currents, could be communicated with, without disturbing the rest of the beach with the traditional loud speakers.” He added, “I wasn’t informed about any dangers to hearing, but I was just listening to the sales pitch guy indirectly…Perhaps the senior staff were informed.” A call to a senior lifeguard official was not returned by press deadline.

Liberty One Media (a politically progressive media outlet currently posting podcasts online while raising funds to purchase a broadcast station) sent an e-mail to ATC inquiring about purchasing an LRAD for use at concerts. The manufacturer sent sales literature, including a technical specification sheet, without warning about potential weapons usage—or inquiring about backgrounds of those seeking to purchase the product.

The ACLU’s local director voiced serious concerns over ATC’s efforts to market acoustic weapons to lifeguards and radio stations. “I think it’s inappropriate for commercial or private use, “ Keenan concluded. “There should be laws restricting it to law enforcement or military purposes.”


I have talked about this in another thread and was told I was nuts. Well here it is people and being used by LEO's and military, think we can trust either one? I no longer believe we can. German soldiers killed and helped kill millions in Nazi Germany and most said they did simply because they were overwhelmed. Humans are humans regardless of country of origin.

Our military is just as capable of harming American civilians, that is why the Second Amendment exists, WE THE PEOPLE are the true last line of defense of Freedom in America.

Trust the Patriot Army n ot the Federal Run Military.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


"his is true, but being former military myself, you realize that other than youre uniform you were the common man, Citizen first, military second."

I think you just hit the crux of the issue. I am not in the military. However, I look at military people as PEOPLE in uniform. In other words, there are people who help others (whatever the risk), those that do what's best for them (at any moment), and those who would enjoy firing on a bunch of unarmed civilians. I'm sure the military is composed of the same sort of spread. If it were ever to get so bad that our own military would be used against us, I think there would be some infighting in the ranks.

You know its a UNIVERSAL feeling these days, I cant find someone to defend Obama anymore, I was told how wrong I was, well - what do you Obamaites think now..?

He is Bush Light~! ... but Bush nonethe less... and this guy got in on the ticket saying he was gonna be a peoples President... ha ha now, thats a joke...

anyway ... save your nickles and dimes ... and buy Liberty Bonds,
as soon as they are available... it all depends of Uncle Sam ...
and well, talk is cheap ... it would appear... 60,000 people on MSM...
1.5 - 2.0 Million by head count... wow... next visit to Wdc... 10M+>

reply to post by spiritwomyn


Lengthy read, but worth it. I went to the magazine website. Interesting, to say the least. I think we could be in a world of poo poo. This is the same tech I believe they used on Noriega, back in the day, to flush him out. If not the same tech, then the same principle. What is scary is that the LEO's are using equipment they have no clue about.

reply to post by DisgustedOne


I saw a program on the history channel a number of years ago and the two people being interviewed were discussing a sound device, but the women kept hitting the guy and telling him to be quiet about certain things he was saying because it was top secret. Which I found amusing as they were on national television.
I know that Wacko and Ruby Ridge were used as practice sites for sound technology and how it controls people or disorients them.

The said the device could take out a village with sound in five minutes and no one would be able to react so they could calmly walk in and take their guns. So we should have protective head and body gear. A suit with some sound damping material and a used helmet with the same stuffed indside.

And to the earlier poster: If we tell them our ideas here, which unless we get together in private they will see, they can incorporate them into their plans. Don't underestimate a desk jockey in a dark room. Because they are not connected to the real world, they can think up some real dark &&^^%%.

reply to post by spiritwomyn



The chances of us getting together behind closed doors and planning their
demise is iffy at best. Better to scare the bejesus out of them right here,
where there's strength in numbers.