Crop Circle - New one is a beauty! 24th July 2009

reply to post by jfj123

Continued from previous post

an alternative cc creation hypothesis which in the final analysis may or may not prove to be the correct one ...

And all I'm saying that it is no more valid then my Giant, flying, invisible, purple wombat hypothesis.

Your "wombat" hypothesis doesn't even come close in comparison.
I've demonstrated that the required technology for MY hypothesis exists ... so now return the favour and provide substantiating evidence that your "wombat" hypothesis STILL has EQUAL validity.

but irrespective, have done so basing it on ONLY currently available technology

You can't say that because you've been asked to produce said current technology and you've refused over and over.

Evidence for said current technology now provided.

This is far more than can be said for alien involvement with it's ZERO supporting evidence

Agreed.

OR rope & plank involvement with it's ZERO completed analysis of a SINGLE complex crop circle design and execution in it's entirety.

Incorrect. This info has been posted many times. And NO I'm not going to post it again. I've done so, and many others have done so. If you want to see it, go back in the thread and read it for yourself.

No ... you have NOT provided what I requested which was to pick a very complex crop circle design and then provide a DETAILED analysis/breakdown of the logistics involved in taking the original paper design (assuming there must have been one) all the way thru to the completed product. That means EXPLAINING how every line, every circle, every angle for that cc was surveyed, plotted and physically laid down ... how communication between members was conducted ... how error checking/correction was catered for ... how the low light conditions were handled, etc because if you can't fully EXPLAIN and in DETAIL the creation process to someone else, then that means you don't fully UNDERSTAND it yourself.

Those adhering to the rope & plank dogma continuously regurgitate the same old tired cliches as to how SIMPLE and EASY it MUST be.

It is.

Then you'll have NO probs in explaining in detail (see my response immediately above)

After all, the cc is plainly there on the ground and say to themselves, "how easy that must be to make ... a circle here ... a line there ... and viola, a crop circle is born !".

Although simplified, this is correct.

Again, see my response above

You're continuously asking for proof ... let's momentarily turn the tables and let ME ask you to pull out a detailed analysis of just what it takes to turn an idea in someone's head into a full blown, 100's of square meters, complex and complicated graphic "etched" into a wheat field.

This info has been posted many times. I'm not going to post it again. Re-read the thread and find it for yourself.

Have reread and nothing close to what I'm asking.
Let me try again because I'm obviously NOT making myself clear.
You and your other group members are now standng in the middle of a wheat field ... it's pitch dark ... you've brought equipment with you ... you have a design on a sheet of paper.
Now, tell me EXACTLY (step by step) how you intend to transfer the paper design to the wheat itself and what logistical problems you'll be faced with and how you overcome them.

- how the graphic is surveyed and plotted onto the crop

Done.

Not done ... see above

- evidence that a board DOES indeed crush and compress wheat stalks in such a fashion

Done.

Not done ... see above

- how individual members communicate when working on different sections of the design

Done.

Not done ... see above

- how undulating terrain is factored into the initial design

Done.

Not done ... see above

In fact, if you're so inclined, take a look at this article regarding the Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009

www.earthfiles.com...

Here a 12 year "veteran" in crop circles was commenting on the unusual construction of this particular circle. There were many points raised but they all basically revolved around the logistical nightmare of starting this circle on one side of a hill, then extending it over the top of the hill and onto the other side ... on top of that the weather conditions for that day were miserable.
Even he had to admit that there was NO WAY he could work out how it was accomplished.

But I'm sure however it was done that it must have been very SIMPLE !!!

In addition, my hypothesis offers an explanation of HOW the wheat is
crushed and compressed;

So does my wombat hypothesis

The DPD operates by creating a plasma directly adjacent to the target, and then detonates the plasma resulting in an explosive force being applied to the target structure.

Now, how does your wombat achieve the same effect ? perhaps by farting ?

it explains HOW the intricate graphics process is controlled;

Please explain this.

In the same way that computer controlled laser milling machines operate. A laser (or any other cutting method) is controlled and guided with millimetre precision by specialized computer software that can select a specific pattern/design from many that have been input beforehand.
Nothing magical there !


Continued in next post ...

reply to post by jfj123

Continued from previous post

it explains WHY glowing "balls" are occasionally spotted;

What technology would create glowing balls and under what conditions are they created? What are the glowing balls made of?

The same technology that creates the DPD effect could also be responsible for the "glowing ball" effect. As stated earlier, the DPD uses a powerful laser to ionize the air in the immediate vicinity of the target. Now ionized air is also known as a plasma and guess what a plasma does ? It GLOWS !!
You want to see a plasma in action and glowing ? If you have one in your house, take a look at a flourescent light tube ... other common examples are neon light displays and plasma tv's.

it explains WHY no one has EVER been caught in the process of cc creation;

People have been caught. This has also been posted.

Please supply source showing that a perpetrator has been caught in the PROCESS of creating a HIGHLY COMPLEX crop circle.

it explains the INCREASING sophistication of the designs;

So does a guy who practices his designs and wants to improve upon them. I get better each time I begin a new painting.

Again, simple answer ... as with most computer software, the programmers write more sophisticated and capable code. You only have to compare the low quality of the 1st generation of computer games e.g. Pong with the current generation of games ... simply light years apart, more sophisticated and more capable.

it explains HOW intricate cc's are created so quickly ... and more ....

With a decent team, I can build an entire house in 3 days from beginning to end. That's a bit harder then creating a crop circle in a couple of hours.

For maximum efficiency, response time and speed, the technology generating the DPD effect would be under computer control. This is no different then my earlier analogy using the computer controlled milling machine.
Now because it's under computer control, positioning, acquisition, targeting and firing would be orders of magnitude faster than if humans alone were creating the patterns manually.
So ... position, acquire, target, fire ... move on to the next section ... position, acquire, target, fire ... move on to the next section ...

End result being a crop circle created in an extremely short time and therefore minimizing unintended observation by passerbys.

"Hey, look mom ... look at the pretty bright balls !!"


Now you've been provided with sufficient info to give you an overview of what I'm proposing as an alternative explanation to the long standing mystery of crop circle formation. The main advantage of my hypothesis is that it's underlying premise rests firmly on LOGICAL, REASONABLE and TECHNOLOGICALLY FEASIBLE assumptions.

!! Crop circles ... now an alien and board stomper free zone !!

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername


Allow me to debunk you

And can I say it would be nice for most of us to understand what is really happening, but maybe we accept for now that we don't
There may well be tech that can form these patterns in our crops.

We have had account of formations before the internet and the flight of man into the air, so it would be unfair as hostorians to say we can rule out the existence of crop glyphs as of being only a recent phenomenon. We do have all eyes on the fields now, and the internet can provide a good viewing platform, and there may still be many formations that go unseen - worldwide (theoretically of course!)

As for the tech -
We've had a lot of rainy weather in the UK this summer - so microwaves at the crops..no

Ion or beams pushing the crops down, it's sort of possible in our minds to imagine this, however, our wheat, etc in the UK grows vertically (might be different in your part if the world) and so how would this work? How would a vertically cut formation be made, yet the forces at work operate at the base of the crop stalks and somehow form the crop above to fold over a certain direction?

I could suggest this to you. When you don't really have an explanation for something occuring (credible or not), why not resign to the fact you can only give opinion, or science fiction type fantasies. That you are at times gobsmacked or overwhelmed at something like a grand, and beautiful crop circle.
To go for the throat of people giving their opinion, well, just shows immaturity my friend.

reply to post by warpath1984

Yer so full of it.How about dealing with the subject at hand,bro.Does wind and rain have any effect on your one button scenario?I don't need notarized documentation,just a brief answer,you don't have to divulge state secrets,woulden't want to affect your security clearance.Or chances of one.

The DPD operates by creating a plasma directly adjacent to the target, and then detonates the plasma resulting in an explosive force being applied to the target structure.

Explain us how do they direct the explosive force so that all of the stalks are pointing in the same direction?
Why are all parts of the circle connected or easily accessed from other parts by jumping over some corps or a special line for this?

Show me a crop circle which a human can't access without leaving any traces.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Can do ...

I believe that we can both agree that the military does indeed have space launch,

Yes the US military has space launch capabilities.

delivery and operating capabilities and for the purpose of this post of mine, need not be debated further.

Yes they have payload delivery capabilities.

However, to establish the plausability of the hypothesis that man-made technology is the main effecting agent of crop circle designs, we need to establish that the 2 main components critical to the plausability of the hypothesis currently DO exist in some form or other and are potentially capable of creating the observed effects. These critical components consist of the following:
(1) the energy beam generating technology
(2) the control and tracking software of the beam itself


(1) The energy beam generating technology
The principle involved here is one whereby a high intensity laser pulse (not necessarily in the visible light spectrum) is used to ionize air directly infront of (OR DIRECTLY ABOVE) the target by rapidly superheating it and effectively creating a region of plasma. This plasma region is then "detonated" by a 2nd laser pulse resulting in a rapid expansion of the surrounding air.

Such technology EXISTS and is being developed based on a grant originating from the WhiteHouse "Office of Management and Budget" involving at least one recipient, namely Stellar Photonics.

Description:
Dynamic Pulse Detonation: Explore a phenomenon referred to as Dynamic Pulse detonation which involves the creation of high intensity impulse forces by detonating laser induced plasmas.

Quotes:
"The system works by producing non-lethal plasmas in front of a target. The plasma is generated by a laser superheating the air in front of a target causing rapid expansion ..."

You haven't shown that technology exists to create crop circles.

Lets take a closer look at Dynamic Pulse Detonation.

The US Army hopes, within a few years, to deploy a plasma shield - a machine that generates a protective screen of dazzling mid-air explosions - to stun and disorient an enemy.

Plasma is typically an ionized gas and is usually considered to be a distinct state of matter in contrast to gases because of its unique properties.

Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons.

The device uses a technology known as dynamic pulse detonation (DPD). A short but intense laser pulse creates a ball of plasma and a second laser pulse generates a supersonic shockwave with the plasma to generate a bright flash and a loud bang.

news.softpedia.com...

This is a theoretical weapons system that is not exactly directional. In other words, the system ignites a ball of gas which rapidly expands in all directions and not uni-directionally.

Good try but SORRY.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername

but irrespective, have done so basing it on ONLY currently available technology
You can't say that because you've been asked to produce said current technology and you've refused over and over.

Evidence for said current technology now provided.

Yeah but that technology doesn't work for crop circles. Sorry.

OR rope & plank involvement with it's ZERO completed analysis of a SINGLE complex crop circle design and execution in it's entirety.

Incorrect. This info has been posted many times. And NO I'm not going to post it again. I've done so, and many others have done so. If you want to see it, go back in the thread and read it for yourself.

No ... you have NOT provided what I requested which was to pick a very complex crop circle design and then provide a DETAILED analysis/breakdown of the logistics involved in taking the original paper design (assuming there must have been one) all the way thru to the completed product.

Buy the book.
People have posted this information. Your problem if you can't get it.

That means EXPLAINING how every line, every circle, every angle for that cc was surveyed, plotted and physically laid down

I'll do it when you do it with your space ray technology.
Now remember, you must explain how it's done...every line, every circle, every angle, how it's plotted and physically laid down. REMEMBER... IN DETAIL

... how communication between members was conducted ...

Already given many reasonable explanations. Will not do so again because you either refuse to read or can't.

how error checking/correction was catered for ...

Explained and given examples.

how the low light conditions were handled,

Explained and given examples.

etc because if you can't fully EXPLAIN and in DETAIL the creation process to someone else, then that means you don't fully UNDERSTAND it yourself.

I'll go ahead and turn this back on you. If you can't fully EXPLAIN and in DETAIL the creation process to someone else, then that means you don't fully UNDERSTAND it yourself.

Those adhering to the rope & plank dogma continuously regurgitate the same old tired cliches as to how SIMPLE and EASY it MUST be.

It is.

Then you'll have NO probs in explaining in detail (see my response immediately above)

You first When you take the time to adhere to the exact same criteria YOU have laid out, I will

After all, the cc is plainly there on the ground and say to themselves, "how easy that must be to make ... a circle here ... a line there ... and viola, a crop circle is born !".

Although simplified, this is correct.

Again, see my response above

Again, see MY response above. If you expect anyone to be held to the standards you set, I will REQUIRE you to be held to the same standards. UH OH...now it gets hard for you

You're continuously asking for proof ... let's momentarily turn the tables and let ME ask you to pull out a detailed analysis of just what it takes to turn an idea in someone's head into a full blown, 100's of square meters, complex and complicated graphic "etched" into a wheat field.

This info has been posted many times. I'm not going to post it again. Re-read the thread and find it for yourself.

Have reread and nothing close to what I'm asking.

Then you missed the info. Try re-reading it again.

Let me try again because I'm obviously NOT making myself clear.
You and your other group members are now standng in the middle of a wheat field ... it's pitch dark ... you've brought equipment with you ... you have a design on a sheet of paper.
Now, tell me EXACTLY (step by step) how you intend to transfer the paper design to the wheat itself and what logistical problems you'll be faced with and how you overcome them.

Haven't you ever taken a math class? Seriously????
You expect us to cater to your questions. Fine, I'll do so ONLY after you apply the same absurd standards to your own hypothesis. I'll be watching intently to see your post....leaning forward, chin on hands, looking at the computer screen....patiently waiting...and yawning....

how the graphic is surveyed and plotted onto the crop

Done.

Not done ... see above

Yes done.

- evidence that a board DOES indeed crush and compress wheat stalks in such a fashion

Done.

Not done ... see above

Still done.

- how individual members communicate when working on different sections of the design

Done.

Not done ... see above

Yep...still done. explained to death....take a reading class.

- how undulating terrain is factored into the initial design

Done.

Not done ... see above

For the umpteenth time....this has already been explained. Your failure to understand it doesn't make it any less valid.

reply to post by jfj123


Look ... I'm going to say this one last time for your benfit and that of other posters to this thread ... and then I'll leave you to continue with your black/white, yes/no belief that the ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank.
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.

First, let me give you one of the definitions of "hypothesis":

"A theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation."

And an example of it's use"

"The hypothesis of the big bang is one way to explain the beginning of the universe."

Note the use of "bolding" as an emphasis in the above.

Now, I also used the word in a similar sense, namely that we have a subject in need of investigation and in response I created a theory that was entirely and solely based on our current technological capabilities.
It was shown that based on it's documented specifications, that it indeed might have the capability of producing a gross similar effect to that observed i.e. the crushing/bending of plant stalks.
From that point of view, yes, it's a successfull hypothesis and therefore warrants further investigation as an alternative method of cc creation.
Due to the fact that it's documented technology, it immediately makes it a better contender than the "aliens did it" school of thought. And also because not a SINGLE complex crop circle design has EVER been demonstrated and constructed out in the open and in front of the public and media, makes the "rope & board" theory NO better a solution then the one I proposed. Note that I'm not referring to a basic cc being demonstrated as I know they have, I'm talking about a highly detailed and complex cc being created right there and then infront of witnesses. In fact, when you stop to consider, virtually EVERYTHING relating to complex crop circle design using a rope & board is based on nothing more than guesswork and assumption.

At this point I'll bring up the question of the "Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009" difficulty of construction once again and ask why you totally ignored any attempt at explaining the documented logistical construction issues inherent in this site. Is it because the "rope & board" explanation immediately becomes obviously and ludicrously inadequate ?

Oh, by the way, your considered and expert analysis of a possible Clatford crop circle construction technique would be invaluable I'm sure to not only myself, but all other cc followers.
And please remember what you stated a while back ... ALL cc's are ridiculously simple to construct when you know how. So you should be able to knock up a convincing explanation without even breaking a sweat !


The fact that we don't know ALL of the DPD's operational capabilities and performance specs (after all, it IS military hardware and they're not usually too forthcoming with every last detail) does NOT disqualify it from remaining a valid contender.
There abound many past examples of instances where the military has developed some revolutionary technology and only released the bare minimum of it's FULL operational capabilities or construction details to the
general public.
A good example is the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. At the time it would have be as plain as the nose on your face that the technology obviously exists BUT it's design, construction and FULL operational specifications remained a closely guarded secret for many years afterwards.
A more recent example is the Stealth Bomber. Yes, we know it exists and is operational BUT would YOU be able to state categorically that YOU know EVERYTHING about it's full capabilities and specifications ? Don't think so.
What we've been told about the Stealth Fighter is basically what we're allowed to know ... and nothing more.

Therefore, it's not unreasonable (based on past evidence) that the same COULD also apply here. A new technology has been developed and we're shown only SOME of it's more gross operational characteristics with the finer details remaining undisclosed. Would you choose to reveal everything about a newly developed technology to your potential "enemies" ? Again, don't think so.
It's almost a certainty that there's a lot more to the DPD technology then has been revealed so far. So if you think I'm being unreasonable in my assumption, then by all means let me know.

So your responses demanding to know every last bit of the technologies full capabilites is patently unreasonable as that level of info has not been released/disclosed.
And because of that, you immediately feel justified in leaping for the jugular screaming "Yeahhhhh ... I've successfully proved that there is NO way this technology could have been used in cc creation".

Unfortunately, you've done no such thing.
Here I have successfully made a case for this particular technology (or a variation) to have the capability to influence plant stalk orientation based ONLY on available and verifiable documentation.
On the other side of the coin, however, you have actually FAILED to provide ANY significant and verifiable justification as to why this technology ABSOLUTELY could not be a possible contender.

As a final word, let's make this real simple and straightforward, shall we ?

Instead of you responding by breaking apart every one of my statements, why don't you simply give us a few lines whereby you state categorically YES or NO that such technology could or could not possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design.
If your answer is NO, then explain citing sources.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
and then I'll leave you to continue with your black/white, yes/no belief that the ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank.

The fact that you think "rope & plank" is the only way WE think crop circles can be made is ridiculously idiotic.

There is already documented cases where people use rollers, and body weight.

They can use heavy truck wheels that have been rigged to a handle bar, so they can push them around. They can even use chemicals that structurally weaken the crops and make them lay down on their own. There is actually unlimited ways they could be made by man.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.

You actually think there is only 3 options.. You should just stop talking now, your mind is actually so closed that you believe your mind is open, thats BAD.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Due to the fact that it's documented technology, it immediately makes it a better contender than the "aliens did it" school of thought.

Nobody cares if "man" made crop circles with technology. The reason crop circles are popular is because people think "aliens" did it, and they believe there is messages in them.

Since the crop circles are man-made, NOBODY CARES! Even if it was made with advanced technology, NOBODY CARES. There is no useful knowledge or information in crop circles. I'm not saying there is no information or messages in some of them, I'm saying there is nothing you can't find on the internet in them (nothing important).

I used to work at a machine shop, and we would cut thick steel plates into any pattern we wish with lasers. Heck we even cut steel with water. It is basically a laser printer you can buy for your own home for less than 100$, except with a more powerful laser. WHO CARES if they can do it from space... (they can't yet).

And just so you know, technology like that will not only be insanely detectable with ordinary heat sensing tools, and other tools, but it would also be visible from the ground with the naked eye, and especially telescopes.

Face it, there is no microwave/laser technology making designs in crops. Not only would it be costly and irresponsible, but if they wanted to keep it a secret, the last thing they would do is use to make pointless meaningless designs in crops.

Go ahead and call me close minded, but I am the exact opposite. I am so open minded that I already thought about that idea, but I also can even see how stupid that idea is compared to other ideas available.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And also because not a SINGLE complex crop circle design has EVER been demonstrated and constructed out in the open and in front of the public and media, makes the "rope & board" theory NO better a solution then the one I proposed.

Complexity is an opinion. Sadly, your opinion is worthless because you already have a preconceived expectation about how a crop circle should look based on the best crop circles ever made.

Not all artists are the same. Some people will be able to make good crop circles, and others will make crappy crop circles. It just so happens that the only people who are willing to make a crop circle in public are not the best artists in the world.

But to say no complex crop circle has ever been made in front of camera is really ignorant. You are ignoring a LOT of facts. I am sure you have heard of crop circle makers? I know you have... They have tons of complex designs. But like I said, your opinion is flawed because you have high expectations.

You are comparing Pacasso to Da Vinci.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Note that I'm not referring to a basic cc being demonstrated as I know they have, I'm talking about a highly detailed and complex cc being created right there and then infront of witnesses.

I can turn this around, all based on opinion.

Show me ONE "highly detailed and complex cc", BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE.

All the crop circles I have ever seen are NOT complex, or detailed. I am a graphic artist, and all crop circles look to me like child's play. Actually most crop circles are all elementary level 2D graphics design that any entry level fool can make using primitive shapes.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
In fact, when you stop to consider, virtually EVERYTHING relating to complex crop circle design using a rope & board is based on nothing more than guesswork and assumption.

Actually almost every single crop circle I have ever seen can be measured and plotted using a simple rope for measurement. I can prove that too...

Using a board to bend the crops is the only assumption. There are many other ways to bend crops.. I already listed a few.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
At this point I'll bring up the question of the "Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009" difficulty of construction once again and ask why you totally ignored any attempt at explaining the documented logistical construction issues inherent in this site. Is it because the "rope & board" explanation immediately becomes obviously and ludicrously inadequate ?

I hope you are talking about the crop circle I think you are talking about. The one that looks like a funny stick figure man. LOL stick figure man.......

OMG it so difficult to make a stick figure man in crops! LOL.

images.google.com...

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Oh, by the way, your considered and expert analysis of a possible Clatford crop circle construction technique would be invaluable I'm sure to not only myself, but all other cc followers.

I guess I missed it? Why do you think it is so difficult? I'll have to reread some posts... but at first glance, the crop circle you are talking about looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And please remember what you stated a while back ... ALL cc's are ridiculously simple to construct when you know how. So you should be able to knock up a convincing explanation without even breaking a sweat !

After looking at it.. all I see is circles, arcs, and lines.. All of which you only need a rope to measure and plot.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
The fact that we don't know ALL of the DPD's operational capabilities and performance specs (after all, it IS military hardware and they're not usually too forthcoming with every last detail) does NOT disqualify it from remaining a valid contender.
There abound many past examples of instances where the military has developed some revolutionary technology and only released the bare minimum of it's FULL operational capabilities or construction details to the
general public.

Do you realize what you are doing/saying??

You are basing your argument on ASSUMPTIONS. The same thing you accuse others of doing. That is pure hypocrisy.

Once again, not many people would really care if they did have the technology to do it. It's still man-made, which makes the entire crop circle hoax meaningless.

I have just been inside this crop formation of the thread title.

It was very hard to reach for someone my age, and I even got zapped by the electric fence wire that surrounds this field, much to the amusement of other people there.

The formation is indeed staggering to view with your own eyes, something photographs never quite manage.

One concern I have: I found no signs of blown or elongated nodes on any wheat stalks.

Further, every stalk I examined was bent on the stalks, away from the nodes.

In contrast, the very long formation under Milk Hill near Alton Barnes (the one that has a long line of 'alien writing'), had a preponderance of stalks showing 90 degree bends right on the node itself.

I am in no way saying this means one thing or another, just reporting my at-scene obsevations.

[edit] -here's an image I took from inside, looking back on the hill I climbed down to reach it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/75ad0278f332.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by songthrush]

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by jfj123

 

Look ... I'm going to say this one last time for your benfit and that of other posters to this thread ... and then I'll leave you to continue with your black/white, yes/no belief that the ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank.
I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.

Well lets look at it one more time.
What do we know for sure?
Well, we know for sure that people have made crop circles using a rope & plank. We have had people admit to it, people getting caught, and people being prosecuted for it.
We know that there are actually sites for circle makers who actually sell their books that explain how to do crop circles.

These things indicate that crop circles are at least partially made by the everyday person. This leads us to reasonably speculate that if some of them are made by everyday people, they probably all are. The alternative is to accept your "idea" is that maybe the US military is in competition with c circle makers to see who can make them better.

Now lets look at your "idea" a little closer.
Does the US military have the technology to create crop circles using the technology you've specified? The answer is NO, based on the info you posted, the best they can do is create mini-explosive balls of gas that are NOT directional.
Now lets ask ourselves why? Motive is important. Why would the US military draw in English wheat fields when they can simply grow wheat on their own military bases and not draw attention. If you want to keep technology secret, you don't use it all over the world, you test it in restricted area's.

Occam's Razor-All things being equal, the simplest solution is usually the correct one. Guy + Pen & Paper +String + board = Crop circle
Your idea
US military + satellite + Advanced orbital tracking system + intense laser pulse creates a ball of plasma + second laser generates supersonic shockwave = crop circle

Let's keep in mind that the DPD system is going to be used to disorient the enemy as a type of shield and from the information I could find, is non uni-directional.

First, let me give you one of the definitions of "hypothesis":

"A theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation."

And an example of it's use"

"The hypothesis of the big bang is one way to explain the beginning of the universe."

The big bang is a THEORY and not a hypothesis.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by jfj123

 

As a final word, let's make this real simple and straightforward, shall we ?

Instead of you responding by breaking apart every one of my statements, why don't you simply give us a few lines whereby you state categorically YES or NO that such technology could or could not possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design.
If your answer is NO, then explain citing sources.

Well, so much for my simple request above to you to give a clear yes/no, black/white answer to my question whether
"such technology COULD or COULD NOT possibly be used in some manner to manipulate plant stalk orientation ... and by extension, possibly effect a crop circle type of design

So what happens instead, you go back into "breakdown and analyze" mode.

Look, how simple do I have to put it to you ?
Let me therefore break it into 2 simpler questions ... now pay attention, please.

"Do you or do you not believe that technology as described previously can be used to MANIPULATE the ORIENTATION of plant stalks ?" YES/NO

"Do you or do you not believe that technology as described previously could POTENTIALLY be used to create a crop circle TYPE of design ?" YES/NO


Oh, and by the way, the "Big Bang" is a hypothesis based on the following definition:

"As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena."

The last time I looked, BB had NOT been "tested and confirmed" and therefore remains a HYPOTHESIS ... so unless you know something the rest of us don't ... hmmmmm ??

[edit on 5-8-2009 by afoolbyanyothername]

reply to post by ALLis0NE

The fact that you think "rope & plank" is the only way WE think crop circles can be made is ridiculously idiotic.
There is already documented cases where people use rollers, and body weight.
They can use heavy truck wheels that have been rigged to a handle bar, so they can push them around. They can even use chemicals that structurally weaken the crops and make them lay down on their own. There is actually unlimited ways they could be made by man.

Whether I use the term "rope & plank" or "rope & roller" or "rope & whatever" is nothing but symantics and pedantic on your part. The "basic" principle remains the same ... someone manually using some DEVICE to depress and flatten the wheat.

I've tried to convince you that there just MIGHT be a plausible 3rd option but a closed mind will remain a closed mind.

You actually think there is only 3 options..

You should just stop talking now, your mind is actually so closed that you believe your mind is open, thats BAD.

See my response above ... but basically another mediocre response on your part.

Due to the fact that it's documented technology, it immediately makes it a better contender than the "aliens did it" school of thought.

Nobody cares if "man" made crop circles with technology. The reason crop circles are popular is because people think "aliens" did it, and they believe there is messages in them.

Since the crop circles are man-made, NOBODY CARES! Even if it was made with advanced technology, NOBODY CARES. There is no useful knowledge or information in crop circles. I'm not saying there is no information or messages in some of them, I'm saying there is nothing you can't find on the internet in them (nothing important).

I used to work at a machine shop, and we would cut thick steel plates into any pattern we wish with lasers. Heck we even cut steel with water. It is basically a laser printer you can buy for your own home for less than 100$, except with a more powerful laser.

"Nobody cares ... ???????" Seriously ???? What crap !! I'm sure there are untold numbers of cc followers worldwide that in fact do give a "faecal excrement" as to exactly HOW cc's are made.
What a ridiculous and thoughtless statement, indeed !

WHO CARES if they can do it from space... (they can't yet).

And now you're professing to be an expert on all matters space related and what can and can't be done from space !!

And just so you know, technology like that will not only be insanely detectable with ordinary heat sensing tools, and other tools, but it would also be visible from the ground with the naked eye, and especially telescopes.

So, what part of DPD technology would be detectable with "ordinary" heat sensing tools ? Why visible ... a UV laser is INVISIBLE. Anyway, perfect opportunity for you to cite your sources !

Face it, there is no microwave/laser technology making designs in crops. Not only would it be costly and irresponsible, but if they wanted to keep it a secret, the last thing they would do is use to make pointless meaningless designs in crops.

Wow, you managed to dismiss 3 points in the blink of an eye ... impressive !
Now, time for you to back up your talk with sources ... oh, wait ... perhaps this is just YOUR personal opinion ... hmmmm ??

Go ahead and call me close minded, but I am the exact opposite. I am so open minded that I already thought about that idea, but I also can even see how stupid that idea is compared to other ideas available.

Stupid compared to what ??? Aliens, perhaps ?? No, then what about compared to your earlier suggestion of using "body weight" to flatten the crops ? Excuse me a sec whilst I piss myself laughing imaging a bunch of people rolling around on the ground, in a field, in the dark, and creating a work of art at the end of it .... oh, my !!!!!!

You are comparing Pacasso to Da Vinci.

Errrr ... I do hope you realise that Pablo Picasso and Da Vinci were BOTH geniuses in their own rights ... so I'm confused regarding this non-sensical comparison of yours.

Note that I'm not referring to a basic cc being demonstrated as I know they have, I'm talking about a highly detailed and complex cc being created right there and then infront of witnesses.

I can turn this around, all based on opinion.

Show me ONE "highly detailed and complex cc", BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE.

All the crop circles I have ever seen are NOT complex, or detailed..

Tell me something ... do you NOT read cc posts being made here in ATS where many are absolutely astonished and delighted at the COMPLEXITY of the latest cc's ?

I am a graphic artist, and all crop circles look to me like child's play. Actually most crop circles are all elementary level 2D graphics design that any entry level fool can make using primitive shapes

Tell me something else now ... do you consider that you've mastered the art of verbalising inane and illogical statements ? I certainly think you have !
The vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue how to start, manage and complete a detailed and complex design in a field of crops ... so I guess they must be even BIGGER fools then you give them credit for !
Get it into your head that there is a world of difference between sitting infront of your pc screen and using Paint or whatever to doodle away with primitives such as circles, lines and other geometrical shapes so of course it would look like child's play... BUT actually standing in the middle of a field in almost total darkness and trying to reproduce your pc design to a vastly bigger scale is not something I would now label as "child's play".


Continued next post ...

reply to post by ALLis0NE


Continued from previous post

In fact, when you stop to consider, virtually EVERYTHING relating to complex crop circle design using a rope & board is based on nothing more than guesswork and assumption.

Actually almost every single crop circle I have ever seen can be measured and plotted using a simple rope for measurement. I can prove that too...

Measured and plotted using a simple rope ?? Ok, now my "bunkum" meter has just gone completely off scale with that statement of yours !
You must be completely deluding yourself to imagine that's all it takes ... but I'll tell you what, let's all give you the benefit of the doubt as we say "PROVE IT" !!

At this point I'll bring up the question of the "Clatford crop circle of May 4, 2009" difficulty of construction once again and ask why you totally ignored any attempt at explaining the documented logistical construction issues inherent in this site. Is it because the "rope & board" explanation immediately becomes obviously and ludicrously inadequate ?

I hope you are talking about the crop circle I think you are talking about. The one that looks like a funny stick figure man. LOL stick figure man.......

OMG it so difficult to make a stick figure man in crops! LOL.

And yet another ridiculous statement and conclusion on your part. The cc in NO way resembles a "stick figure man".

Oh, by the way, your considered and expert analysis of a possible Clatford crop circle construction technique would be invaluable I'm sure to not only myself, but all other cc followers.

I guess I missed it? Why do you think it is so difficult? I'll have to reread some posts... but at first glance, the crop circle you are talking about looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible.

Obviously you missed a lot of things ... and most importantly, you appear to have missed in the article the considered opinion and analysis of a 12 year cc "veteran" who states categorically that the designers would have encountered numerous and significant logistical challenges (plus miserable weather conditions) in the execution of this cc. Try reading his description of how one part of the cc starts on the side of a hill, continues to the top of the hill, and then finishes down on the opposite side of the hill.
Total length in excess of 800 feet ... no visible line of sight from one side of the hill to the other side ... and many more logistical nightmares.

And yet up you pop and declare "... looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible."

And please remember what you stated a while back ... ALL cc's are ridiculously simple to construct when you know how. So you should be able to knock up a convincing explanation without even breaking a sweat !

After looking at it.. all I see is circles, arcs, and lines.. All of which you only need a rope to measure and plot.

And obviously you're speaking as one who's had considerable experience drawing circles, arc and lines in the middle of a field and in the dark !
Whoops ... there goes my "bunkum meter" again !


So, just reading back through my responses and to be quite truthfull, I'm beginning to wonder why I even bothered.
You've made some of the most silly, ridiculous, badly thought out statements and comments that I've come across ... and frankly, I expected a much better response from you.

How can one person be so closed minded? Why is it so difficult for you to accept that people CAN make "complex" crop circles?
www.starstreamresearch.com...
Look at the picture with the planks and measuring tape. Those are the only tools you need to create perfect circles and straight lines in crops.
How to make a circle - One person stands in the middle of the circle and holds the measuring tape. The other one goes to the edge of the circle. The tape is locked and the person in the outer parts does the circle.
Straight lines - Can be made without any help by going straight and being sober or you can use the measuring tape.

But your theory has flaws and you ignore them.

This is a theoretical weapons system that is not exactly directional. In other words, the system ignites a ball of gas which rapidly expands in all directions and not uni-directionally.

Explain how this technology can be used to make crop circles. How is it so that the crops on the edges of the ccs are standing like they should be while a plant right next to it is layed down? This tech can't do this.

[edit on 5/8/2009 by DGFenrir]

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Whether I use the term "rope & plank" or "rope & roller" or "rope & whatever" is nothing but symantics and pedantic on your part. The "basic" principle remains the same ... someone manually using some DEVICE to depress and flatten the wheat.

You just used symantics right now, you hypocrite.

You said "ONLY possible explanations are EITHER alien involvement OR rope & plank."...

ONLY??! Why did you say ONLY? But now you are saying "whatever"?

You are changing your own words because you got proven wrong. It's a common tactic by you croppies who get proven wrong all the time. You are using straw man tactics.... it's pathetic.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
See my response above ... but basically another mediocre response on your part.

Step back away from the screen and see who is truly making mediocre response's.... ^^^pointing up^^^

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
"Nobody cares ... ???????" Seriously ???? What crap !! I'm sure there are untold numbers of cc followers worldwide that in fact do give a "faecal excrement" as to exactly HOW cc's are made.
What a ridiculous and thoughtless statement, indeed !

Actually I put so much thought into that statement that you are unable to see ALL of the thoughts.

Let me rephrase that.... Nobody IMPORTANT cares.

You cc followers can already find out exactly HOW cc's are made, but you all choose to look away and ignore. You are a good example.

The argument is about aliens vs man-made. You are supporting the man-made discussion when you theorize advanced technology. That is what I meant by nobody cares if advanced technology was used, because that would still mean it is man-made. Nobody cares if it is man-made, and that has been proven many times by croppies who deny they are made by man.

I also meant, if the message are from man, nobody would care.. It's just knowledge-less man.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And now you're professing to be an expert on all matters space related and what can and can't be done from space !!

Yes, actually you are talking to someone who knows an extremely large amount about space.. Because, nobody is stopping me from figuring it out and doing the calculations.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
So, what part of DPD technology would be detectable with "ordinary" heat sensing tools ? Why visible ... a UV laser is INVISIBLE. Anyway, perfect opportunity for you to cite your sources !

Wow you really need to brush up on your science, these are elementary school level questions.

UV Lasers are only invisible to the human eye, not to other camera devices. All you have to do is remove IR filters from any normal camera to see them. Heck even a thermal camera would be able to detect the heat effects on the crops. Duh! My source? Just every single science book in existence.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Stupid compared to what ??? Aliens, perhaps ?? No, then what about compared to your earlier suggestion of using "body weight" to flatten the crops ? Excuse me a sec whilst I piss myself laughing imaging a bunch of people rolling around on the ground, in a field, in the dark, and creating a work of art at the end of it .... oh, my !!!!!!

I said "rollers AND body weight". Not just body weight. Learn to read, go back to school.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Errrr ... I do hope you realise that Pablo Picasso and Da Vinci were BOTH geniuses in their own rights ... so I'm confused regarding this non-sensical comparison of yours.

Picasso and Da Vinci were both artists (painters) with DIFFERENT STYLES. Picasso is famous for his abstract paintings and his analytical cubism style. Da Vinci was known for his realistic paintings such as the Mona Lisa.

The difference between the two are COMPEXITY. I'm sorry that confused you, I made the assumption you were more intelligent than you are.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Tell me something ... do you NOT read cc posts being made here in ATS where many are absolutely astonished and delighted at the COMPLEXITY of the latest cc's ?

Those are all childish opinions to me... Much like a child finds a computer complex, while I think a computer is really simple. I have a lot of knowledge in geometry and graphics, so complexity is a different scale to me compared to others.

I don't think ANY crop circles are complex, because of my advanced knowledge of graphics. But people such as yourself think a stick figure crop circle is complex...

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Tell me something else now ... do you consider that you've mastered the art of verbalising inane and illogical statements ? I certainly think you have !

I think you just do not have the ability to comprehend logical statements, so they appear illogical to you.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
The vast majority of people wouldn't have a clue how to start, manage and complete a detailed and complex design in a field of crops ... so I guess they must be even BIGGER fools then you give them credit for !

Correct. Because I can easily do everything you stated. I can start, manage, and complete a detailed and "complex" design in a field of crops, and I find that it would be extremely easy. I see all the logistical problems that might come up, and I already know how to solve them all.

I guess if you can't do that, then you are less intelligent than I.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Get it into your head that there is a world of difference between sitting infront of your pc screen and using Paint or whatever to doodle away with primitives such as circles, lines and other geometrical shapes so of course it would look like child's play... BUT actually standing in the middle of a field in almost total darkness and trying to reproduce your pc design to a vastly bigger scale is not something I would now label as "child's play".

Everything you just said was "child's play". Get into your head that nothing you stated was impossible for me to do. I have done things 100 times more complex than that.

I find your comments hilarious.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by ALLis0NE]

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
reply to post by ALLis0NE

 

Measured and plotted using a simple rope ?? Ok, now my "bunkum" meter has just gone completely off scale with that statement of yours !
You must be completely deluding yourself to imagine that's all it takes ... but I'll tell you what, let's all give you the benefit of the doubt as we say "PROVE IT" !!

Just so we don't get terms confused. Measured and plotted to me means to measure it out and mark the major locations where objects will be. I used to run a CAD machine that would automatically cut out shapes out of material. I was responsible for measuring 3 dimensional devices, and creating complex 3 dimensional "jackets" for them, plotting them out onto computer and or material in 2 dimensional format, and having them cut out automatically.

I know everything you need to know about geometry, and measuring. A crop circle is CHILDS PLAY compared to the 3D to 2D conversion I was doing.

Every single crop circle that has EVER existed, I could measure and design with a simple piece of string or rope. EVERY SINGLE ONE. You find me a crop circle, I will show you how to measure it with a single piece of string or rope.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And yet another ridiculous statement and conclusion on your part. The cc in NO way resembles a "stick figure man".

You are trying to tell me it "NO way resembles" a stick figure man (possibly taking a dump)

I bet I can get preschool children to draw the above crop circle.

It's made only circles, lines, and arcs, all of which can be measured and designed with a simple string or rope.

It's a dumb stick figure man LOL...

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
Obviously you missed a lot of things ... and most importantly, you appear to have missed in the article the considered opinion and analysis of a 12 year cc "veteran" who states categorically that the designers would have encountered numerous and significant logistical challenges (plus miserable weather conditions) in the execution of this cc. Try reading his description of how one part of the cc starts on the side of a hill, continues to the top of the hill, and then finishes down on the opposite side of the hill.
Total length in excess of 800 feet ... no visible line of sight from one side of the hill to the other side ... and many more logistical nightmares.

Oh my not a 12 year veteran! 12 years and he still hasn't figured out they are man-made!

Wow, weather? A hill? Oh my that will totally make it impossible!!! -Sarcasm

Everything you stated are just inconveniences that are easily over come, you have NOT stated anything impossible for humans to do... Just a bunch of excuses!

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And yet up you pop and declare "... looks insanely easy to design, and create... I don't see anything impossible."

And I was correct, there is NOTHING impossible to do. "Easy" is my opinion, to you it sounds hard, but to me, ITS EASY.

For you it might be hard to design a MD600N helicopter in a 3D graphics program to scale, but for me?....Ive already done it.

It might be hard for you to do no-footed-can-can on a Honda CRF450R off a 6 foot jump, but for me?....I do it all the time.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
And obviously you're speaking as one who's had considerable experience drawing circles, arc and lines in the middle of a field and in the dark !
Whoops ... there goes my "bunkum meter" again !

When I was younger, I used install hardwood floors in huge multimillion dollar mansions. I used to do all sorts of crazy patterns, and curves, and arcs, and stairways, and angles, and weird bends.... Yes, I had to measure, plot, cut and fit small pieces of wood in tight places. Actually, I pretty much used to do that when I was a machinist too.. I would technically cut crop circle like designs in metal while making satellite and fighter jet pieces out of titanium! I even built additions to houses! Had to plot out the foundation on uneven land...

Heck, smashing down crops and grass would be a walk in the park for me.

Originally posted by afoolbyanyothername
So, just reading back through my responses and to be quite truthfull, I'm beginning to wonder why I even bothered.
You've made some of the most silly, ridiculous, badly thought out statements and comments that I've come across ... and frankly, I expected a much better response from you.

You have made some of the most pathetic excuses I have ever heard.

Nothing you have said comes even close to being hard, or impossible to me. Nor have you proved that anything crop circle related couldn't be easily done by man with simple tools.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by ALLis0NE]

I still boggle that anyone could possibly thing that this might be super-secret technology we, or another superpower is "testing." It makes no sense on so many levels. Why would we disclose such testing? We wouldn't. There is a reason we have bases in the middle of deserts. Which ironically, is why I also think sightings of large ufos over cities cannot be military secret craft. Why would we test them there? Makes no sense at all.

More importantly, you think we'd risk a war over this? We are firing a device or perhaps even a WEAPON onto another countries soil, even effecting their crops? Yea, that's go over really well, if it wree discovered / disclosed. That's even less likely than flying secret aircraft over other countries soil (which I have also heard, and which makes no sense... let's risk a crash with a test aircraft, so that another country can immediately steal this technology. Brilliant!).

I can't think of a single reason why any government would test something on public soil, especially in another country.

reply to post by fleabit


But, fleabit, people these days don't care about logic.

They only care about "what would be cool if was real".

So they will ignore your very good post full of logical deductive reasoning.

reply to post by fleabit


I love a heated discussion board!!

The US government has government within the government. The sad thing is, if we provide our own troops with depleted uranium weapons and make them sick(golf war syndrome), do you honestly think we care about some farmers crops in another country?? We don't. The super powers that run the world want to keep the ET presence alive(crop circles being a great way to do thus).

You mark my words, a staged alien invasion will cause chaos, and out of this state of utter confusion or disorder, the NWO will be brought in. And that be the truth man!