BMO Forcing RFID Chips On Me, page 2
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times


reply posted on 10-7-2009 @ 07:45 PM by imd12c4funn
reply to post by getreadyalready


I agree.

There were three times in my credit card carrying life that I got screwed.
Once, out of the country, it wouldn't work, yet it was supposed to.
twice, I had a security freeze on cards that were deemed by the banks "fruad department" to be suspicious and "for my safety" was held untill I called to ask wtf?

When you rely on a card and it doesn't work, for whatever reason, and you aren't carrying cash so your money is "safer", you can become a victim of circumstance and get lost in the system, and at the mercy of a little square piece of plastic.

Even if the notes are fiat, they are accepted and can not malfunction.

Since, I still carry a card, but never without cash as well. I use the cash as much as possible, but sometimes, like when you need to buy a parking ticket downtown and all you have is a ten, shoving a card in the slot for 4 dollars is fine.

But if they are used for emergencies only, there has to be some kind of effect on the issuer.

Not to mention, if you need cash and have to pay fees at ATM's, you are getting picked to the bone like a carcass devoured by hungry vultures.


reply posted on 10-7-2009 @ 10:41 PM by silo13
reply to post by BiohazardsBack

My plan is to ignore it.


And that....Is how they will *win*.

Of course you've got to pick your fights.
This one might not be of your choosing.
But the more people that *just ignore it*... Well... At the risk of repeating myself, that is how they will succeed in the whole process of tracking the population, and that, includes of course, you.

peace


reply posted on 10-7-2009 @ 10:42 PM by suzque66
reply to post by DragonsDemesne


Nope, mine is merely a debit card too.

Not associated with UWO either, nor Scotia Bank.

My BMO acct I have had at the bank since 1982, the debit card since 95ish, this new chip card (no credit through BMO) was activated since June whether I liked it or not.


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 05:05 AM by Devino
reply to post by BiohazardsBack


Recently I had to get a security ID card with a RFID biometric chip in it. There was a lot of mixed feelings over these cards but rather than continue to resist getting one I decided to keep my job, get a card and learn what I could about them. This is some of the info I found which I sent to many of my co-workers.

Protecting Personal Information on RFID Cards


This is information concerning the possibility of personal ID theft from cards that use contact-less RFID. There is a lot of controversy pertaining to the devises in these cards and a few conspiracy theories linked to them as well but my focus here is on the potential risk that exists by transmitting personal data and ways to protect against unauthorized card reading.

RFID chips (Radio-Frequency Identification Device) were developed and are manufactured by Alien Technology and basically contain two parts. One is an integrated circuit that stores data, processes info and modulates-demodulates RF signals. The second is an antenna for energizing, receiving and transmitting RF signals. It has been demonstrated that RFID chips can be read from up to 10 meters away.

Ways to Protect Your Personal Data


Identity Stronghold is a company that sells a card holder that shield frequencies of 13.56 MHz and above where these chips operate at (but not older 125 kHz cards).
Secure Sleeve and Secure Badgeholder products create an RFID shield by blocking the electromagnetic energy necessary to power and communicate with contactless smart cards, passports, enhanced drivers licenses (EDLs), TWIC, PIV, CAC and transit cards. This is essential to total security because although most contactless smart card systems implement industry-standard security mechanisms, readers can be modified to access information without authorization.
Source from ID Stronghold.

It is not my intention to solicit for the company ID Stronghold nor have I tested these badgeholders to see if they work as claimed. I thought this information could be useful and I am interested in any further information about ways to secure personal data contained in these RFID cards.


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 07:12 AM by Devino
reply to post by getreadyalready

RFID chips have been proven to be readable up to 10 meters away and that was several years ago. The distance in which these tags can be read is limited to the power output from the reader and signal to noise ratio in between. It would be incorrect to say that these chips cannot be read like GPS devises, the correction being when will the technology be available to do this.



Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by rogerstigers


Well in Canada there have been a string of frauds, so the people pushed for action. At one point they found someone with thousands of fake cards. All they needed were the PIN# and the information on the card. They used machines in different stores with people who were in on it, and they also used machines to duplicate the cards.

This chip prevents duplication. Instead of sliding the card in the magnet strip, they use a push-in opening on the machine.

So by proving fraudulent activity the public is deceived into pushing for a devise that makes them more vulnerable. With this logic the best way to avoid thieves from breaking into anyone's house would be to leave everything of value out in the street.


Originally posted by Silk
Its not an RFID chip - those arnt visible - they are embeded in the card -... You wouldnt even know if you had one -

Not unless you know what to look for.



The tags I have seen that are on ID, passports and bank cards are about the size of a postage stamp and are very thin. They are like little stickers with an identifying holographic image or symbol on the side that faces out and the circuit on the sticky side facing in.

I would strongly advice not using any debit cards especially ones containing RFID chips, credit cards are safer for the fact that you can dispute unauthorized charges where as you cannot with debit accounts.

For those who think that this is being overly paranoid imagine what it would feel like finding a zero balance in your savings account because your debit card was hacked. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't watching me.

[edit on 7/11/2009 by Devino]


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 10:22 AM by BiohazardsBack
reply to post by DragonsDemesne

No it is definitely not a credit card. Like I said, that makes at least a tiny bit of sense. Adding a PIN to a credit card would make it more secure if it were stolen. It is a simple debit card that I absolutely need to use any bank whatsoever. I just got it in the mail today, I don't think my mom got one yet so they are likely doing this in stages.
But I believe the website said by the end of this year all their cards will be chips. Maybe it said 2010 though.

reply to post by silo13

Maybe you misunderstood. My plan is to ignore the fact that I have been given a new card, and never use it unless absolutely neccesary. Leaving it at home unless I need to actually go into the bank, etc.

reply to post by daniel_g

You don't find the fact that the woman couldn't even tell me who in the company might know what kind of chip it was suspicious?
Not to mention, you believe it is more secure, but when I questioned her about that, the only thing she could say was that if it was compromised I could just change my PIN (To hell with that, I would WANT a new card!)
It could quite easily be an RFID chip. Just because there is a part of it that is visible you assume it isn't because "They could hide it so you couldn't even see it", but why waste money making it so small when they can make it big, and convince everyone it makes them more secure? Yourself included obviously.
I have asked about security, I know for a FACT that these cards can be read from a type of reader you don't need to swipe it you just come close. There have already been frauds of that type here in Canada. They are in no way more secure. They may last longer, but I've had my card for 6 years and it barely has a scratch on it, and works perfectly every time. "Smart Chip" is not a type of chip. It doesn't tell you what it does. It is a phrase they tote out to make it look like an advancement.

And telling me to forget the card and go with cash, now where do you expect me to get cash from?
Not to mention, I have a teen account with very strict withdrawal limits on the day, week, month, etc.
I live on my own, I have to pay for rent, food, everything. I wouldn't be able to withdraw enough to keep up!

reply to post by Devino

Very nice info. As for the credit card thing, a)I'm working my butt off trying to get my boyfriend's credit card down and paid off, there's way too much risk to spend more than you make as any financial help site will tell you. b)I don't qualify for any credit cards. No proveable income whatsoever.


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 02:46 PM by daniel_g
Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
\reply to post by daniel_g

You don't find the fact that the woman couldn't even tell me who in the company might know what kind of chip it was suspicious?

No, I don't. You are talking to customer service, not the engineering department. Heck, go to radioshack, pick up a digital clock - any, crack it open, and ask the sales associate who made or what are the chips inside. You are going to get the same answer.


Not to mention, you believe it is more secure, but when I questioned her about that, the only thing she could say was that if it was compromised I could just change my PIN (To hell with that, I would WANT a new card!)

No, I don't believe it's more secure, I know it's more secure. But fine, go ahead and stick to the word of a customer service employee who knows nothing about encryption.


It could quite easily be an RFID chip. Just because there is a part of it that is visible you assume it isn't because "They could hide it so you couldn't even see it", but why waste money making it so small when they can make it big, and convince everyone it makes them more secure? Yourself included obviously.

God, if you are so paranoid. Get a pair of scissors, cut it up in little pieces, and show us what you come up with. Once you convince yourself, get a replacement card


I have asked about security, I know for a FACT that these cards can be read from a type of reader you don't need to swipe it you just come close.
There have already been frauds of that type here in Canada.

Are you talking about smart chips, or RFID? Either case, did I ever say the security system was flawless? No, but care to google credit card fraud? You'd be surpirsed how much easier is to steal your money from a magnetic strip card!!


"Smart Chip" is not a type of chip. It doesn't tell you what it does. It is a phrase they tote out to make it look like an advancement.

Didn't I post a link where you could easily find what "type" of chip they are and what they do? Why did I even bother to do that if OP is going to completely ignore it.


And telling me to forget the card and go with cash, now where do you expect me to get cash from?
Not to mention, I have a teen account with very strict withdrawal limits on the day, week, month, etc.
I live on my own, I have to pay for rent, food, everything. I wouldn't be able to withdraw enough to keep up!

And you need a debit card to do all that? Please!
Most banks allow you to pay bills online.
Most banks will even send checks to pay your bills, upon request.
Most banks will give you checks
Most banks allow you to withdraw money by simply using your account number + some ID
Most banks allow you to cash checks even if you don't have an account with them.
And the best part? They offer those services for free!

You bank does none of that? Then you made a horrible choice. Your bank does all of that? Then, if when you cut your card to try and find a nonexisting RFID chip in it, don't ask for a new one. Instead use all other services your bank has to offer.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by daniel_g]



reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 04:08 PM by Devino
Originally posted by Ayrton
A credit, debit card DOES NOT use RFID chips.

A one liner that is also false. I'm not sure what your intention is but if it's posting truthful information you blew it, by doing a 5 minute Google search quite a bit of information pops up that contradicts your claim.

MasterCard and Visa's credit and debit cards HAVE RFID CHIPS, they are called Pay-Pass.
From 2006, the major card companies in the USA (Visa, MasterCard and American Express) are able to issue bank cards with RFID chip optionally. The bank card with radiofrequency identification functions...
Link.

Chase Freedom Visa use RFID.
While Chase doesn’t promote it very well, the card contains a tiny RFID chip. This allows you to pay for something using a contact-less terminal...Chase brands the technology Blink, American Express calls it ExpressPay, MasterCard calls it PayPass. They are all pretty much the same thing.
Link.

Blink RFID Logo.


Citibank RFID Keychain.


some banks have started phasing in these cards without the consent of their customers....In the UK, some banks such as Halifax are trying a system backed by Visa known as PayWave
Link.

Check out the first two minutes of this clip of Mythbusters' Adam Savage.



reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 04:15 PM by BiohazardsBack
reply to post by daniel_g


No, actually. My bank account has a daily withdrawal limit that is ridiculously small. I couldn't pay rent and food in cash. My bank does not allow you to withdraw money without your card. I have never EVER been able to cash cheques. They put mine on hold. If I went into another bank, they would laugh in my face. They require you to have a bank card+account to even change from american money to canadian money. Bills fine, I don't have bills in the same way you do. I have to pay for GROCERIES. Grocery stores here do not accept cheques.

Mod Note: Excessive Quoting – Please Review This Link

[edit on Sat Jul 11 2009 by Jbird]


It's really too bad this got edited without putting in the parts I had specifically put in. I understand that it had to be changed, but I had actually put in responses to every little quote, spent probably half an hour on it, and there's no way I'm bothering to do it again.
Essentially it said "You have no way of knowing that it isn't an RFID chip, nor do you KNOW that it is more secure, as you did not make the chip, and probably couldn't verify its security any more than I can. You did not give a link explaining what KIND of chip it was. Your link said the exact same catchphrase that the customer service bimbo said, "smart Chip" which is NOT in fact a real explaination of what the chip is, as all chips that are programmed with information can be called Smart, and in fact often are. I have seen news stories and heard firsthand stories of these chip cards being scammed off of the exact same way as the old ones. Obviously you don't know how debit card scamming works. Someone replaces a real P.O.P. machine (point of purchase, the thing you swipe on and type your pin into) with one they created. It still sends the data to the company to pay for whatever you're paying for, except it also sends it to THEM. The machines are modified from real ones, so it can read through any encryption a normal one can."

[edit on 11-7-2009 by BiohazardsBack]


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 04:32 PM by Devino
Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
You don't find the fact that the woman couldn't even tell me who in the company might know what kind of chip it was suspicious?

As sad as it sounds this appears normal. Most people do not want to know too much information nor do they like to think for themselves, causes too many headaches. This reminds me of the question I asked at a high end bay front seafood restaurant that nobody knew the answer to. I asked if the Salmon was farmed of wild, the cooks didn't even know what wild salmon was.

Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
reply to post by Devino

Very nice info. As for the credit card thing, a)I'm working my butt off trying to get my boyfriend's credit card down and paid off, there's way too much risk to spend more than you make as any financial help site will tell you. b)I don't qualify for any credit cards. No proveable income whatsoever.

Thank you and, yeah, I think I understand your problem. You and your significant other must be on the same page when it comes to finances.

Depending on what bank your with, no need to advertise their name here, they might be willing to help you get a 'non-RFID' card.

I have had the same credit card for almost 20 years and have been able to always pay off the balance each month but this isn't easy and it isn't for everyone. I wouldn't want to steer you towards a credit card for its security only for you to fall into debt.

If your bank won't give you a non-RFID card and you are unable to change to a bank that offers non-RFID cards then there are ways to disable the chip that's in the card you have. However this may disable the card completely and if that's the case than I suggest a badgeholder or card protector. The site I linked earlier sells 2 badgeholders for under $20 and they hold 2 cards each. Or use some thick tinfoil or thin metal and make your own little Faraday cage, the idea is to block the incoming signal so it remains dormant then when you want to use the card you remove it from the holder.

After all that I am still holding back information about these cards, they are truly remarkable micro pieces of technology. What I have learned after a lot of time spent researching this micro-tech is that, IMO, none of it was ever intended for security or to assist the consumer. These chips in general are nothing less then tracking devices, security through tracking and like I said I may sound paranoid but that doesn't make any of this wrong.


reply posted on 11-7-2009 @ 11:47 PM by Mr. Toodles
reply to post by BiohazardsBack


I am all for technology, but this is just another move into the direction that has been predicted by philosopher, holy roller, scholar and holy books for a very long time now. Do not fall into the trap
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