The Insignificance of God

Well, this is my first real thread. Let's see how I do...

Let me start by saying that I am an Atheist. Well, more of an Agnostic/Spiritual Atheist. I don't believe in any particular deity, nor do I think that it is absolutely impossible for one to exist (though I do doubt it). It's just that I don't really care. I have more important things to worry about, and spending time worrying about the existence of a God would just waste my time.
I use to believe in a God. I even use to try out different belief systems from Catholicism to Paganism. Than I realize that it just wasn't making an impact on my life. I finally realized that God/s... wasn't/weren't really all that important to me.

Hence the reason for posting this thread. Think, for a moment (for all those who do believe), about your theistic belief. How much do you believe... truly Believe? how much has it shaped your life? Do you pray? Go to Church? Engage in rituals? go on missions to spread the "good news"

No imagine that disappearing... forever? How would you respond at first? How 'bout in the long run? What would you do? How would you spend all those hours you use to spend of church? On praying? on missions? Would you go out and riot like the masses? Or would you, eventually get over it and find something else to do? Something productive?

Now, Atheists. I want you to think on how you spend your life. How does not believing effect it? Do you try to educate people on the non-existence of God? Do you protest against the words "In God we trust?" Do you point out the many, many flaws of the Bible? Do you recoil every time someone mentions the word God?

What would happen if you had the sudden realization that one does exist? Or many? Would you become a devout follower? Would you deny the evidence? Would you join the masses in their riots? Would you get over it?

I ask this because I asked myself these questions, many times before. I soon realized that, while there are pros and cons to God. The real being. the real only entity that really matters... is us! whether or not God or Allah exists. We are still stuck here in this world. No matter how much we pray or deny we still have to live out our lives with each other. God, if he/she/it/they exist should be and only be secondary. Human beings are important on this earth, not God.

So stop all your bickering. Stop all your wining and moaning, and grow up. There are more important things to worry about. Stop complaining and get up and do something a little more meaningful. Besides, we still have to be civil to each other even if one doesn't exist, and we still have to evolve even if one exists. So, the sooner we get over this, the sooner (and better) we can do those things.


With Peace and Love,
Redajin


To help with your pondering go here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 7/9/09 by Redajin]

reply to post by Redajin


Alot of people believe in a higher god in simple fear. They fear death. That if there is no higher power and no afterlife, then they will rot and be forgotten for all time. And humans being self conscious about themselves all the time cannot stand that. Generally speaking, humans cannot cope with being on the same level as any other animal on earth. We are all mortal, but hope for something immortal for fear of being forgotten.

I always find it interesting the assumptions that are made about believers. Could not a believer be a philosopher, who arrived at his belief by rational analysis when the only thing that is left is faith after everything else is carved away?

I tend to see unbelievers and atheists as presumptuous people who THINK they know something, when all the while they are motivated by some form of disowned, rebellious teenage angst.

The fully mature person, the thinker, the philosopher, at least from my point of view, is a believer, and to believe in a power greater than one's self, this is an act of courage, not fear of death, and it can also be an intellectually hard fought conviction born of the faculty of reason.

That "fear of death" thing, is something used to be my favorite horse to traught out regarding the nature of faith in God, when I was much much younger, but I kept searching, free from any contemptuous bias and preconceived judgement, and eventually ran headlong into God as the only thing which makes any rational sense in the final analysis.

So believe or don't believe whatever you like, but if you could, please give us believers the benefit of the doubt. We're not all intellectual weaklings who cling to faith out of a fear of death, that's not what it's about, but the pursuit of an answer to the greatest matter facing man, and like I said, it can be a very hard fought and hard won philosophical and rational pursuit, and to be honest, I find some of the comments about God and faith and the Bible and why people believe, to be highly immature and presumptuous, even insulting.

reply to post by Mr. Toodles


True. As a race, we are deathly afraid of death and the unknown and what not.

But, the true question is, if we survive the initial shock can, we get over it? Can we, as a species, eventually move on? I mean, while our bodies may decompose, and our life ends, our memories may live on forever, through the generations. I wonder if that would suffice for most people. It would for me, but I don't speak for everyone

reply to post by Redajin


An interesting first thread... no doubt written to stir a response of some kind...

I would ask the question whether it's God or religion that you have issues with.

If it's religion then fair enough. More evil in the world has been perpetrated in the name of "a God" then anything else in known history. A cursory look at the most recent history (last 3000 years) would show that to be true. Even in the modern age of the world where there seems to be an ideological war between Islam, Christianity (any of its hundreds of sects) and Judaism...

Whether there's a god or not... I dont think that its proven one way or the other. Even the pathetic attempts by creation scientists (I laugh) are perilously closer to propoganda than to science.

Does it really matter if there is a god? Probably. Does it matter if there isnt a god? Probably. Is there any point in trying to argue the point? I would suspect the utility of that is a highly personal issue and would differ from person to person. Some people need to believe, some choose to believe and some have beliefs thrust upon them.

I would ask, who has the authority to force a belief onto anyone else? In our modern age, no-one.

Be well, and dare I say it, God bless

Dave

I'm a believer out of humility.

I refuse to believe that mankind is the pinacle of anything, and (nothing will help us) if we are.

WE are still only babies on a metaphysical level, and it seems blind to say, i cannot see it ergo it does not exist.

Belief in something higher is part of our mindset (ask any kid), and only changes when we are turned away by something, usually the church.

peace

Originally posted by Mr. Toodles
reply to post by Redajin

 

Alot of people believe in a higher god in simple fear. They fear death. That if there is no higher power and no afterlife, then they will rot and be forgotten for all time. And humans being self conscious about themselves all the time cannot stand that. Generally speaking, humans cannot cope with being on the same level as any other animal on earth. We are all mortal, but hope for something immortal for fear of being forgotten.

Hi Mr toodles/

Actually, Fearing God is a good thing!
'Out of fear of the Lord men shun evil' (Prov. 16:6),
and 'Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom' (Psalm. 111:10).
The second kind is mentioned in the following verses: 'Fear of the Lord is pure,
and endures forever' (Psalm. 19:9. LXX),
and 'Those who fear the Lord will not want for anything' (Psalm. 34:10. LXX).


He who has obtained the fear of the Lord has forsaken lying,
having within himself an incorruptible judge – his own conscience.
St. John Climacus, “The Ladder of Divine Ascent,” (Boston: Holy Transfiguration Monastery, 1978), Step 12: On Lying

“The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom” (Proverbs 1:7).

And on the fear of DEATH?
Die daily,
that you might live eternally,
for one who fears God will live forever. ''St. Anthony the Great'' Third century!
So, one who is in fear of God, does the Will of God in fear,remembering their wrongs and having in their mind DEATH, so that when death does come, one who has lived in fear and has done no wrong,rejoices in DEATH.

Even here I rest in Christ and with Christ; how, then, can I do otherwise than to believe that eternal rest in Him awaits me after death, and after the struggle against earthly enemies? Here without Christ I feel oppressed and in pain; how can I do otherwise than believe that it will be still more grievous to be without Christ there, when He will finally cast me away from before His face? Thus the present state of our souls foreshadows the future. The future will be a continuation of the present inward condition, only in a modified form as to its degree: for the righteous it will be turned into the fullness of eternal glory; for sinners, into the fullness of everlasting torment." St. John of Kronstadt (My Life in Christ, Part 1; Holy Trinity Monastery pg. 51)
~Sayings from ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY~

ICXC NIKA
helen

Right, well I dont believe in God.. and dont buy into any religions really. But I do think there's something out there that created the universe. Maybe didnt create us, but the universe had to start somewhere right?... Well, actually I suppose it didnt HAVE to start somewhere, but it doesnt make sense to me that things just 'are'. I cant comprehend WHY the universe was created, but still.

The main reason I dont buy into any religions is that there is so many out there. And the main one's have thousands/millions of followers, the majority of whom fully believe and have faith in that they're following the 'true' religion. And its alright having faith and whatnot.. but there's gotta be a hell of alot of people out there that are following a religion that isnt actually real.
Plus theres the whole issue of how people follow their religions. The vast majority of people dont seem to follow their religions word for word. Why not? If thats what you believe in then go for it, follow it... I find it a little odd how people pick and choose which bits of their religions to ignore, and which to go along with.

But yea, I think day to day, I have no need for religion and I get by perfectly fine. If Im having problems or feel down, I watch tv and eat some chocolate and sort things out myself. Ive never felt the need to pray for anyone to help me.
When Im on my death bed I might repent my sins or whatever (just in case ), but until then I have zero need for believing in a particular creator.

If you are truly happy knowing that you will continue living everyday life for all eternity then that is what you will have as per the will of god. At death the higher self plays our current incarnation's consciousness again and so on until it has found enough experience on Earth. In terms of our waking consciousness we never actually reach death, to the outside viewer we do, however in our mind time slows down, every second twice as long as the last. Cheating the ferryman. In this system we never have to leave our lives if we dont want, we can replay them over and over again. Our consciousness is held in what has been reffered to as the bohemian imax, the matrix, the maya amongst many other names. It is like gods mind and holds all that is possible in every reality, every moment in time is recorded and can be played again with full conscious interaction.

This is why at the point of death a guru will repeat in his mind over and over again that he is one with god and he will break away from samsara and go and be one with god. If he isnt enlightened enough or doesant concentrate on this thought enough he will reincarnate in human form or relive his last or past lives again.

reply to post by daptodave


I agree with you. I've always found it interesting that people confuse advice with preaching. Someone tells you about something you would figure that they wanted you to make a statement one way or another for the sake of conversation and then they tell you to stop preaching to them when all you where doing is giving them what you thought was good advice. Anyway just an observation. Now to actually reply to your post.

The reason I mentioned that is because by talking about why god isn't real, how what people believe is wrong to them is sort of trying to force your own belief on others. What someone believes is no ones business other than their own.

Maybe religion isn't the problem. Maybe people put too much focus on what other people believe instead of keeping what they believe (or don't) in them and focusing on other things. Instead of talking about god, why not talk about the state of the world, whether we are alone in the universe, or why things tick. Wouldn't that be better use of your time than making fun of what you call a sky fairy, but who i view as a loving parent to all the creatures on earth. It is obviously a subject that no one will ever agree upon and therefore it would be better to talk about things we can agree upon or are more pertinent to the here an now. Maybe believers / disbelievers could forget their differences and make the world a better place together. I think that's something both sides agree on.

Originally posted by Bluebelle

The main reason I dont buy into any religions is that there is so many out there. And the main one's have thousands/millions of followers, the majority of whom fully believe and have faith in that they're following the 'true' religion. And its alright having faith and whatnot.. but there's gotta be a hell of alot of people out there that are following a religion that isnt actually real.
Plus theres the whole issue of how people follow their religions. The vast majority of people dont seem to follow their religions word for word. Why not? If thats what you believe in then go for it, follow it... I find it a little odd how people pick and choose which bits of their religions to ignore, and which to go along with.

I will say that I do believe in god, but i understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I'm sure that you agree with me that people have free will (outside govt control that is).

When they choose a religion that in their hearts they think is right wouldn't be logical that they would call that the true religion? Sure there are many many belief systems but most of them really have the same underlying wisdom. Even if you don't believe in the bible you may find theirs some pretty awesome advice on some of those pages. Some people call it the true word of god verbatim no everything is literal, and there are some people that would call it a hitchhikers guide to the universe so to speak. See the underlying teachings are basically, peace, love for thy neighbor and thy self, honesty, integrity and wisdom. Is there anything wrong with those things? Anyway if someone believes something is true/not true they will call it true/not true, I'm sure you understand the logic of that statement.

Sure people have wielded god as a sword for their own personal gain, but that is their business not god's. They did it for them and used the religion just like people use other people today. I would say nowadays it happens more in the name of money than it does in the name of god. Even though people are dying in the middle east and to bombers in the name of a god, I guarantee more people die in the name of money and power.

I'm sure someone is going to reply to this with a air of hate, when all I tried to do is give wisdom. Some people can only portray themselves with hate.

reply to post by DaMod


Oh yea, free will to a point I think. Its probably a bit more difficult to have a free choice in what you believe in if say you were brought up in a strict religious enviroment.

I agree that the jist of most religions is just basically try and be a good person. But then there's still all these other guidelines/advice. These are probably the most obvious one's, but a couple of examples..

1. The whole catholic stance on homosexuality. They're against it arent they. Yet very rarely is it now that you see catholic people standing up and saying its wrong and should be illegal etc. You occasionally hear the odd quote from the pope, but thats it. So it seems that being homosexual is now acceptable to most people. What I dont understand about that is why are people changing their views just because society says so? God is supposed to be some amazingly wise, special 'entity', so why go against his teachings?

2. The whole suicide bomber thing. Those guys obviously must be doing what they believe their God wishes them to do, and that they are doing good thing. We shouldnt tell people their wrong for believing in whatever religion, and how much they follow/interpret that religion... so how can people tell those kinds of people that they're wrong?

I think my main issue is that at what point do the guidelines become non-optional? How do you know?

reply to post by Mr. Toodles


Put many years of my thoughts in words which I couldn't express myself before. Fear to be forgotten. Totally agree with you. This counts for whatever religion.

Originally posted by Bluebelle
Right, well I dont believe in God.. and dont buy into any religions really. But I do think there's something out there that created the universe. Maybe didnt create us, but the universe had to start somewhere right?... Well, actually I suppose it didnt HAVE to start somewhere, but it doesnt make sense to me that things just 'are'. I cant comprehend WHY the universe was created, but still.

The main reason I dont buy into any religions is that there is so many out there. And the main one's have thousands/millions of followers, the majority of whom fully believe and have faith in that they're following the 'true' religion. And its alright having faith and whatnot.. but there's gotta be a hell of alot of people out there that are following a religion that isnt actually real.
Plus theres the whole issue of how people follow their religions. The vast majority of people dont seem to follow their religions word for word. Why not? If thats what you believe in then go for it, follow it... I find it a little odd how people pick and choose which bits of their religions to ignore, and which to go along with.

But yea, I think day to day, I have no need for religion and I get by perfectly fine. If Im having problems or feel down, I watch tv and eat some chocolate and sort things out myself. Ive never felt the need to pray for anyone to help me.
When Im on my death bed I might repent my sins or whatever (just in case

), but until then I have zero need for believing in a particular creator.

Yes, you do believe in God as your "just in case" supports fully. If you do not believe then there is no, just in case. Repent your sins? What sins are there if there is no God?

reply to post by Redajin


You are asking people who believe, to imagine that what they believe in, is not there anymore. Then you are asking, those who believe, what they would do with all their extra time away from what they believed in.

You then ask people who do not believe, to imagine that what they do not believe in, is actually true. Then you are asking, those who do not believe, if they would become believers. Or if they would freak out.

I had to put that in front of me because I was tired of looking back at it. You can't take faith from people even in an imaginary thought experiment. It doesn't matter what some experts claim. It doesn't matter if all the earthly symbols were removed. People will still have faith. So it is impossible to imagine this. God makes time for those who are diligently seeking him. So all that extra time would be spent in the same manner.

As far as non believers. How many miracles was Pharaoh shown? He did not believe. Didn't the authorities want to put back to death the boy Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead?

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That's one tough nut to crack.

Originally posted by Bluebelle
reply to post by DaMod

 

Oh yea, free will to a point I think. Its probably a bit more difficult to have a free choice in what you believe in if say you were brought up in a strict religious enviroment.

I agree that the jist of most religions is just basically try and be a good person. But then there's still all these other guidelines/advice. These are probably the most obvious one's, but a couple of examples..

1. The whole catholic stance on homosexuality. They're against it arent they. Yet very rarely is it now that you see catholic people standing up and saying its wrong and should be illegal etc. You occasionally hear the odd quote from the pope, but thats it. So it seems that being homosexual is now acceptable to most people. What I dont understand about that is why are people changing their views just because society says so? God is supposed to be some amazingly wise, special 'entity', so why go against his teachings?

2. The whole suicide bomber thing. Those guys obviously must be doing what they believe their God wishes them to do, and that they are doing good thing. We shouldnt tell people their wrong for believing in whatever religion, and how much they follow/interpret that religion... so how can people tell those kinds of people that they're wrong?

I think my main issue is that at what point do the guidelines become non-optional? How do you know?

Homosexuality is wrong in the view of the person who believes it is wrong. Procreation is the only reason humans have sex in the first place but we have distorted why we have sex. Are there other species that have both male and female? Do they have homosexual tendencies? Other than asexual species I have doubts. How long has homosexuality been around?(a long time but my belief is that it is a psychological disorder as we are not born with these tendencies) ? If we(humans) are the dominant species then would other animals try to emulate our behaviors?

How could anyone tell anyone that they are wrong if that they believe it to be true? Our beliefs are not the same so what you believe is not what I believe.

Killing anyone or thing in the name of your God is wrong but I do see the dilemma in the question because if they believe who are we to tell them no?

It is education by our predecessors which determines how we believe. Our parents and teachers supply us with knowledge and we decipher what is right or wrong because we are mature adults. I was raised Catholic and I do believe in God, my brother is gay though and I have not disowned him or anything like that because I was taught to forgive.

I believe in the Solipsistic Quantum Cosmological Christ, and my "theory" if you will, about the true nature of man and his intended statute in the fullness of all things universal, is as follow from a post I made over in another thread.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I think it has to do with an evolutionary process, where manifestation is tied to proclamation. It has to do with distinctions, and a continual process of differentiation and reintegration, something which can only be delimited via meaning. QM is beginning to grapple with the meaning aspect of creation. Meaning collapses the probability wave into an actuality, and it can also generate a new wave of possibility. This imho, is the Logos, or The Word. It ties into Consciousness and conscious awareness. In the Gospel of John, word made flesh simply denotes God-consciousness in human form, or a sphere within a sphere.

I also think Jesus was or became, through the same process, a walking pineal gland, the gateway, the true vine, etc. the way, the truth and the life, and in his word and world, the way of being that he had achieved was distinct and unique, so he could not help but to differentiate himself from everyone else, with his cross being an attempt to reintegrate with everyone, by taking on all the damage caused by their faulty thinking and separation. A rather ingenious attempt to resolve a fundamental paradox regarding human suffering imo.

By this definition, the Logos is like an arrow of civilized progression, and the Christ, a universal man of such progress embodied, made manifest in the physical universe, here on earth of all places! Yes, that is very solipsistic, but so too are the implications of modern quantum physics.

When looking at Jesus Christ as the Logos, it is also important to consider the mind/body connection and the human mind-universal mind connection.

In this way, a cosmos absolutely filled with life and intelligent civilizations, would do nothing to undermine the Christian faith, maybe only bolster it, revealing that the highest always serves the lowest, where the last shall be first and the first, last. It's an evolutionary proposition of non-locality (you saw it here first), where man, being last, is, at the most fundamental level, no matter how undeveloped from a socio-political-spiritual basis, the most evolved being in the universe, made, by intelligent design, to contain non other than the spirit of the living God, with Christ being the first among many to make manifest or to actualize, the promise made, with integrity.

I know that minds prejudiced with contempt prior to investigation will cry foul, and say that I just posted a bunch of pseudo-science woo woo to support an unfounded Christian faith, and for them, it will not compute. There are many others here reading this, however, who WILL "grok" it most fully, "all those with the ears to hear let them hear."

To better understand the revelation that I'm driving at here, for the Logos, or The Word, look to the Phi Ratio or the Golden Mean, relative to the sacred geometry of the Seed of Life, and then consider man as the most recent, and therefore the very highest expression of the creative principal, in the universe, due to what I call evolutionary non-locality ie: nothing in the universe evolves in isolation, with the whole universe being a non-local, instantaneously interconnected, holographic phenomenon, or in terms of order from chaos, an open system.

This places imo, the whole Biblical framework and human spirituality as an evolutionary phenomenon, in a whole new light (of course you can ignore some of the cultural baggage which got towed along in the process) as well as the political power aspects involved in trying to use "The Word" for the raw temporal power of domination and submission. One has to get around or over their bias against "Churchianity" to see the truth at the very heart of it all.

So you see, in a non-local, holographic universe, local matters, especially here of all places, where the rubber really hits the road in terms of the ongoing struggle in the midst of the paradox of good and evil and of civilized leadership and the neccessity to influence for the greatest possible good of one and all in the house.

And remember too, that the technology of any advanced civilization would be indistinguishable, from magic. Perhaps we live in a universe where there are many players, and unimaginable technologies, the very highest of which is imo, The Word itself, as a type of God-NLP for the creative spiritual evolution of the human being.

"And as my father hath sent me, even so send I you." so there again, it's organic and holographic and progressive, with continuity.

Or, maybe I'm just starting to take in too much '___' from all the meditating I've been doing lately!

So it IS all about YOU, and ME, and OUR relationship, to one another, and to God through Jesus Christ. In Christ and through Christ we are one, and there is no such thing as death, only forgiveness, and unconditional love.

So I'd just like to say therefore, that I love you all as I may be loved, if my deepest suspicions and philosophical speculations, are valid, and since every point of view is entirely valid, then so it is.

Love and Light,

OmeaPoint

Namaste..

I don't think it matters one way or the other.



all our opinions are insignificant

[edit on 103131p://bThursday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


In relation to what?

reply to post by habfan1968


No, the 'just in case' is because Im not arrogant enough to assume that Im correct in what I think.