Irish, Czechs mull anti-treaty voices in EU vote

Originally posted by Dermo
See thats the main reason you won't be allowed to vote unfortunately, your government already ratified... once Ireland passes it, then its done.

Nothing is irreversible, the Tories (although God know there is little gap between them and Labour) have promised a referendum

From an economic perspective.. what would you do it the EU decided to close the market to you as a punishment for pulling out..?

Because that would leave you with nowhere to trade with, a closed isolationist economy with very little industry left, absolutely massive fiscal debt and a currency that is weakening by the day because of quantitive easing and debt.

I think as much as most of you would like to leave the EU, if you look at it from a realistic perspective, you are too dependent on it for your wealth at this stage.. that was the original reason for the Coal and Steel treaty and EU in order to stop member states from attacking each other and convince member states to allow the EU more power.

You are sort of right about the original reason for the EU, ie, the coal and steel aspect, although this was not the REAL reason if you get me, it was the initial excuse used to begin the process (France having reaslied it would never again battle Germany, and the two of them coming together to push their idea of a supra national state).

None of what is stated in your paragraphs scares me in the slightest, and, despite the quantitive easing, the currency is stabliising and rising- the independence of the BOE has been a Godsend whereas the ECB has been rather cumbersome and slow to act- although, even if were the case, it has made our exports cheaper and foreign investors are now returning to London to avail of the relative cheapness of properties (on the back of the currency lowering).

This is without even going into the net loss every year from the UK to the EU or even going into cultural/political/national ideals which, alone, for me would bring a no vote.

Leaving the EU will eventually happen, and I am so positive and excited about the propsect- our political class have lied so blatantly for decades it isn't funny, and I find the classification of the Tories as "right wing" a joke- rewined back to Ted Heath, who admitted that the vote in 1973, publicly for economic reasons was always just a cover for greater political, cultural etc unity.


Like I say, there will never be a situation where I will vote yes for Europe

reply to post by pieman


That is the simplest and best explanation I have ever heard for economic stagnation lol.

When an economy is at the top, it cannot go anywhere.. this is one of the main reasons the US had to keep expanding its empire and producing arms etc to keep economic growth but at the same time was expanding its fiscal debt.

The stagnant EU countries will be back onto growth as soon as the average workers are trained into the new upcoming industries that will develop from the ashes of this recession.. simple as.

reply to post by blueorder


Some good points

I still find it hard to see the UK leaving the EU in the next half century but best of luck with it lol

Originally posted by blueorder
Like I say, there will never be a situation where I will vote yes for Europe

seeing as your country doesn't have a constitution, it'll never be a situation where you get to vote anything. you won't get a vote. the political classes will make sure of it.

besides, your arguments against the eu don't stand up. politician know the people of the uk aren't informed enough to make a decission so they won't ask them.

the net loss thing is rubbish, the contributions the uk makes to the eu are for the strength of the eu as a whole. a strong eu means strong trade which increases economic activity locally. the uk helps the polish attain a strong economy by helping them build infrastructure, the polish then buy lots of stuff from the uk and the uk ends up with a net gain.

that's why the eu was set up and why it keeps expanding.

the cultural differences, meh, culture is just the way peoples minds work, it can't be politically changed anyway so it's irrelevant to the discussion. the people in london are further, culturally, from the people in manchester than they are from the people in paris. national culture is rubbish culture is way more local than that.

it's all just xenophobic, nationalist rubbish. it's so far from reality it's laughable.

[edit on 5/6/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by piemanseeing as your country doesn't have a constitution, it'll never be a situation where you get to vote anything. you won't get a vote. the political classes will make sure of it.

Well clearly we do not have to have a constitution to have a referendum- although on the separate point, you may be right about the current political class crop

besides, your arguments against the eu don't stand up.

well it actually does- and Ive gone further, Ive stated that there is no situation where I would vote yes, even if all the good and the great assured me of economic collapse (which will not happen)

the net loss thing is rubbish, the contributions the uk makes to the eu are for the strength of the eu as a whole. a strong eu means strong trade which increases economic activity locally.

Well the whole "net loss things" is not rubbish- on it's own that is an irrefutable fact- the rest of your waffle cannot be substantiated to any real degree

the uk helps the polish attain a strong economy by helping them build infrastructure, the polish then buy lots of stuff from the uk and the uk ends up with a net gain.

break that down in figures, to avoid this "rubbish" you seem intent on mentioning (although why the Polish would buy "lots of stuff from the UK" is a bizzarre statement)

that's why the eu was set up and why it keeps expanding.

The EU was set up as a supra national state , born out of Franco/German insecurity and issues

the cultural differences, meh, culture is just the way peoples minds work, it can't be politically changed anyway so it's irrelevant to the discussion. the people in london are further, culturally, from the people in manchester than they are from the people in paris. national culture is rubbish culture is way more local than that.

That isn't in fact true

it's all just xenophobic, nationalist rubbish. it's so far from reality it's laughable.

You are like a 1980s throwback, blah blah "xenophobic", nonsense, people who throw such words are cowards

Originally posted by blueorder

Leaving the EU will eventually happen, and I am so positive and excited about the prospect- our political class have lied so blatantly for decades it isn't funny,

I concur the writing is on the wall for Britain's continuing level of involvement with the EU. More downside than upside. And let's not forget they aren't starving in non-member Switzerland.

With Germany as the main engine, partnered with France, Italy, Spain, et al, the EU makes sense. Shared borders on a continent and a bastion against the spread of Russia.

Times have changed and Britain can always maintain a connection to the EU but with distancing direct involvement.

I see harder times for Europe than other parts of the world. Innovative stagnation and loss of export strength. It's as if it's treading water rather than swimming in a direction.

The British were once movers and shakers with a tight cluster of interacting countries, and should be that way again.


Mike

I sincerely hope that once again, the Irish vote against the Lisbon treaty, because once all countries sign upto the Lisbon Treaty, it will be fascism full steam ahead. If you want to know what the EU has in store for us once the Lisbon Treaty is finalised, then read the article below.

EU security proposals are 'dangerously authoritarian'
www.telegraph.co.uk...

Love this quote from Jacques Barrot, European justice and security commissioner.

"National frontiers should no longer restrict our activities," he said.

These fascists have no respect for national sovereignty and think they can do as they please. The only thing that stands in the way is the Irish vote and the rest of us who care about democracy & freedom. Time to tell the EU where to get off.

Originally posted by Dermo


While I understand what you are saying and respect it, your views are a bit extreme for what is actually happening with the EU.

With the US, without the federal government, the US would have no real power on the world stage.. that is what the EU is now trying to achieve.. more clout. Agree or not, that is the objective and they are achieving it.

Power on the world stage is not exactly a goal or ambition I find endearing, worthy, or even comforting. The more power a country gains, the more authoritarian and tyrannical it becomes. It pushes more and more for regulation and pushing a uniformity that I find viles. Power, security, and wealth are not worth the sacrifice of self-sufficiency, individualistic rights, and freedom.

The future is everywhere on this planet.. Business opportunities are now taking people to Asia, then Africa, then back to the EU/US.. then off planet. As for stagnating, i don't take offense, Yes the old powers are aging but this will eventually come full circle while the eastern states become more and more populous and powerful with consumer economies etc.

But the west is not producing, and ultimately, when the fecal matter hits the fan, the house of cards economics that the west has embraced will collopse, and it will come down who is producing hard goods.

While immigration is a massive concern for the EU, I will be long dead by the time it is a Muslim country, it will then be young and vibrant again except with a massive muslim population.. Again, these things always come full circle. To view it any other way is short sighted im my opinion, no offense.

None taken, but i disagree. If Europe becomes a Muslim place, it will slide back into the dark ages. What is needed is for new immigrants to keep their vitality but lose the religion, since scientific and social progress simply do not happen in religous societies. The new Muslim immigrants within a couple generations must become very secular, minimally religous, like the native Europeans have, in order for there to be any hope.

The west advanced scientifically and socially once Christianity was dumped as the ultimate authority and became less and less an influence in daily life and society. This holds true for all religion.

I understand your perspective in a big way as I had that antagonistic perspective a couple of years ago where I could only see bad in the EU and no good. The good is economic clout and security.. the world is changing into a handful of super super powers and a lot of weak nationalist or poor nations.

The price being paid for more clout and wealth and security is liberty and basic individual rights. Something I do not feel is worth the tradeoff.

In my opinion, its the future, if you don't agree, then there's nothing else I can really say.

Depends on what soprt of future you want.

You know, if I had made these statements about the US and said I was from Europe, I would have been told to "shut the f*ck up because its none of my business and go back to Europe you US hater".. Im not insinuating that that should be said to you.. im just pointing that out

[edit on 5/6/09 by Dermo]

That I highly doubt. Maybe from a handful of idiots. the majority of Americans would simply shrug and tell you "whatever floats your boat"...that is, if they even bothered paying attention at all.

I never tell people to shut up when expressing an opinion. Only when that opinion is clearly coming from their rectum without having been examined and digested first.