Bye-bye Big Three, Thanks in large part To UAW

Has the fact that the UAW has been sucking the life out of the Big Three for so many years gone totally unnoticed?

Don't get me wrong, there was a timein our history in which unions where in dire need to reshape the labor landscape in order to put workers' needs (safety, earnings, and other important rights) on par with those that were exploiting the lack of such rights.

That day has long-since passed. But the unions themselves became a corporate enterprise and are now hesitant to read the writing on the wall; the fact that today's labor laws are more than sufficient to protect the everyday worker.

With the shrinking need for unions, and shrinking market for the 'Union Enterprise', the UAW has done what it needed to itself survive, it has bled it's age-old host to death. Congratulations! Looks like I'll now HAVE TO buy foreign cars, something I've avoided doing all of my 44 years, and all of you UAW members employed by the Big Three will have to find new employment.

Good job!

Good luck (NOT)!

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The UAW has not adapted or evolved to be able to survive in the modern work world. It has done it's job well to keep it's employees well paid and compensated - so much so that it drove the companies into the ground. I mean not losing pay for a 3 month shut down? Still getting paid while laid off? What company could survive that? The only entities that can survive that are governments.

I love my country and hate the fact that so many Americans will loose their jobs because of the Big three going under, but lets face facts here....they did it to themselves and no one else did it to them. I have absolutely no love lose for them. They have been raping us their own people for decades now;designing autos to last a fraction of the lifetime as foreign autos...ON PURPOSE! Not to mention designing,building and manipulating markets for higher irreplaceable fossil fuel burning engines. I mean it was only 2-3 yeaqrs ago that they brought back the muscle cars for gods sake. These greedy corporate scum bags gave themselves billions of dollars in bonuses every year and all the while did not even think once about the impact on our home planet Earth and the eventual economic impact on their employees and their families. Hey what do they care though they are all billionaires.

So please re think the blame here on this issue.

I get most of what CaptGizmo is saying there. Being a mechanic, I've noticed all the new cars coming with engines that are hell to work on, plastic everything.. I could name 10 vehicles real fast that are a pain to work on and mostly pieces of garbage made by the US. Capt mentions bringing back muscle cars.. yeah I like the fact they're getting back into something that is part of what I feel to be american car heritage but seriously... plastic intake manifolds?! Plastic valve covers? I think the new challenger even has a plastic radiator support. I understand they're trying to save money by using these plastic composites but they break VERY easy. They've become throw away cars IMO.

Originally posted by CaptGizmo
I love my country and hate the fact that so many Americans will loose their jobs because of the Big three going under, but lets face facts here....they did it to themselves and no one else did it to them. I have absolutely no love lose for them. They have been raping us their own people for decades now;designing autos to last a fraction of the lifetime as foreign autos...ON PURPOSE! Not to mention designing,building and manipulating markets for higher irreplaceable fossil fuel burning engines. I mean it was only 2-3 yeaqrs ago that they brought back the muscle cars for gods sake. These greedy corporate scum bags gave themselves billions of dollars in bonuses every year and all the while did not even think once about the impact on our home planet Earth and the eventual economic impact on their employees and their families. Hey what do they care though they are all billionaires.

So please re think the blame here on this issue.

I don't, nor would I, place the entire blame on the union faction. You are absolutely correct.

However... The unions, as part of thier 'worker focus', never once recognized the facts that you state (outside of executive bonuses). If they were truly looking out for thier members' welfare, which IMHO includes job longevity, they would have been bringing the fossil-fuel reliance factor as well as the others you mention, to the attention of both management and the media. But rather the focus was on salary and benefits. It had nothing to say about the survivalof thier 'host'. Nothing but parasites is what I say.

reply to post by billybobh3


I understand the sentiment, but the corporate machines are more to blame for these things than the Unions.

There is one simple fact which has caused these corporations (and most of the banks) to falter, and that is saturation of the market.

We were in a period where marketing was the only thing you needed to get right to sell, it didn't matter about "need", you just had to convince people to get another loan and assist in that, which was easy enough.

Now that period is over, we know it couldn't possibly last and that it was highly unstable, and it's no surprise that it's come to an end.

Rich corporations became reliant on their immense profits in a time when it was easy. And as soon as there is any slowdown they became unstable.

It is the fault of the corporations, not the unions. The corporations failed to adjust to modern markets through arrogance and greed. They refused to accept that things needed to change and that people wanted something different to what they had traditionally offered. Production levels were too high and what they were producing wasn't good enough.

They were always set to fail, simply because of their attitudes to business and the changing world where their inefficient vehicles were no longer acceptable. They saturated the market without reading the warnings.

reply to post by detachedindividual


Once again, I agree that the corporate machine has much to do with the overall failure of the Big Three. That is a fact that cannot be refuted.

I simply feel that, if greed on the part of corporations was a major factor or, if you wish, a majority factor, then the remainder must fall upon the unions. The same unions that were paid for and tasked with looking out for thier paid members.

Failure all around,no matter how you choose look at it. MY choice is that the unions failed as regards job longevity.

Showing my ignorance, but

1. Who is the UAW?
2. Who are the big three?

reply to post by lightchild


United Auto Workers - Union for the auto industry.

Chrysler
General Motors
Ford

Originally posted by lightchild
Showing my ignorance, but

1. Who is the UAW?
2. Who are the big three?

Lightchild,

UAW = United Auto Workers (Union)

Big Three = Ford, General Motors, Chrysler (US Automakers)

Americans sure have become a self defeatist, self loathing lot of people.

Do you know which car company posted the biggest loss this quarter?

Toyota!

The freeze in lending markets is what is destroying the Retail Car Business period!

The 2 trillion dollars that politicians handed over to the banks has not done one thing to unfreeze credit markets.

Automobile consumers who need loans to purchase them, even those who have perfect credit ratings can simply not get financing from the banks period.

It gets worse every month, not better.

That’s what has put the Auto Makers of the World all in jeopardy.

So rather than put the blame on Congress that its 2 trillion dollar gift to the Banks was no gift to the American people.

So rather than put the blame on themselves for not buying American products or even researching them before buying an non-American product.

So rather than put the blame on the lending arms of the manufactures such as GMAC, Chrysalis, Ford Motor Credit, Toyota Motor Credit, and Honda Motor Credit for being under capitalized…

The typical moronic, confused, vastly undereducated, purposefully ignorant American Citizen blames it on…

The Union Worker who actually fought and struggled and sacrificed to make a real living wage, as in real living wage as the only thing that keeps an economy strong.

So when you finish your break at your 7.25 an hour job for a corporation that rakes in billions of dollars to invest overseas…

Reward them some more and run to Wal-Mart to buy the cheap made in China junk that is all the typical working American can afford…

Go home and demand we drop a couple more 1 million dollar smart bombs on 5 dollar stone huts in Afghanistan and blame the Union Worker you had to take the bus home while our politicians borrow some more money from China to pay for the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is just the cost of the War on the Unions that started back in the 70’s, cook yourself a Hot Dog and enjoy dining on it while CNN tells you everything you need to know to finish off the economy and democracy.


[edit on 18/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

The UAW can only build what management gives them. Greed on the management part has killed the quality. Design and engineering procurment and sales are all salary jobs. Put the blame in the right place

Get real.

I'm unemployed for 4 months now, and can STILL afford to buy 8 new cars, foreign or domestic, cash, and will not because of the ENTIRE economy. Period.

If the economy weren't as bad as it were, I WOULD buy a new car because I NEED one and it wouldn't be AMERICAN, based upon what I now know about the unions involved.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


that was the best and most accurate rant i've read in weeks, and i know a rant, all praise to you. i only regret i have but one star to give.

the unions wouldn't allow their workers to be bent over and shafted to the same extent that workers in other sectors were being shafted, they're so evil

people want and need cars, cars are right there behind food, shelter and water in the developed world, if automakers go under it is plain bad management, simple as that.

The trouble u.s auto makers are in has VERY little to do with UAW.

The real issues that have brought them to where they are are:

1) Reliance on SUV's as their bread and butter
2)Lack of foresight
3)Inability or unwillingness to advance the technowledgy BEFORE the consumer demands it. Every other major car manufacturer in the world has been looking at economy and efficiency for years now. U.S. auto makers have been decades behind for a long time now.

Blaming it on the auto unions is passing the buck. It seems to be a hge trend in this country(working in the school system, I see it every day). We want the worker to sacrifice his personal advancement for the well being of the company. We are asking them to do more for less money. We are asking them to go outside of their job description, because "it's what's best for the company".

Truth be told, the worker on the low end is not the issue. Sad that we have reached a point where we want to hold the worker bees responsible for the queen's poor performance running the hive.

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

that was the best and most accurate rant i've read in weeks, and i know a rant, all praise to you. i only regret i have but one star to give.

the unions wouldn't allow their workers to be bent over and shafted to the same extent that workers in other sectors were being shafted, they're so evil

people want and need cars, cars are right there behind food, shelter and water in the developed world, if automakers go under it is plain bad management, simple as that.

The poor management was the fact that they let the unions screw them for so long. Plain and Simple.

I worked hard with the same company, not unionized, for twenty years and made a GOOD living at it. Ever heard of the the term/phrase 'Pay For Performance'? I have and it works; I know from experience. But I never came even close to what UAW workers made to simply tighten a few bolts.

F them!

Read the article in my OP.

[edit on 5/18/2009 by billybobh3]

Originally posted by billybobh3

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

that was the best and most accurate rant i've read in weeks, and i know a rant, all praise to you. i only regret i have but one star to give.

the unions wouldn't allow their workers to be bent over and shafted to the same extent that workers in other sectors were being shafted, they're so evil

people want and need cars, cars are right there behind food, shelter and water in the developed world, if automakers go under it is plain bad management, simple as that.

The poor management was the fact that they let the unions screw them for so long. Plain and Simple.

I worked hard with the same company, not unionized, for twenty years and made a GOOD living at it. But I never came even close to what UAW workers made to simply tighten a few bolts.

F them!

Read the article in my OP.

Mechanics work hard and have a back breaking job. Factor in the cost of the tools they have to buy at their own expense and it's not a fair exchange.

Mechanics deserve more money but the reality is that when half their Work Orders (RO's) are not customer pay but warranty repair the Factories only pay them so much.

The Factories only wanted to pay the Unions so much too.

The Unions fought for what was fair.

Now here is what sucks for a mechanic. A uninon worker might make 75.00 an hour.

I guarantee you most dealerships charge 75.00 an hour for labor on Customer Pay Work Orders.

What's the top mechanic going to get out of that? Maybe if he is real lucky up to date with the best ASE Certifications about 29-32 an hour if he has about 15k to 20k worth of tools to do the job that he has to pay for.

A Technician with minimum experience and tools will be lucky to get 10-15 dollars and hour for what Management still charges 75.00 per hour for.

Management does not seem to have any trouble getting the pay they want, for their business, for them selves.

Just workers who are often too fearful of loosing their jobs to engage in collective bargaining.

UAW workers have gone a lot of weeks sometimes months at a time without a paycheck period to get their living wage secured and real benefits from corporations that have made billions and trillions off their labor.

You are suffering as many Americans do of a lets bring them all down to the bottom rung, hey I am there too, I work hard, they must not deserve any more than me.

That's what America has become domestically and internationally the Policeman. The give the corporate fat cats a get out of jail free card and punish the average guy like he committed capital murder just for saying hey look out for me.

The UAW took major concessions to keep Chrysler in bussiness in the early 80's and Ford in bussiness in the mid 80's and the UAW is making concessions now in line with what management is conceeding to keep moving forward.

Auto Technicians truly deserve the 75.00 an hour management brings in for their labor.

If they got paid 75.00 an hour and spent it on American made products and services that gives everyone else more job security, and more income opportunity.

Most Americans suffer from bad press with marketing and political bents.

The specifications for most American Cars far surpass the specifications for most Japanese, Korean and European Cars and dollar for dollar they are a bit cheaper.

If you haven't sat down with the print outs and you haven't driven all the competitors and you are passing judgement on American products based on what an advertisor, marketer or your next door neighbor who has owned three Toyotas in his life and never shopped or bought an American car has to say well you aren't doing yourself, America or the American Worker or Economy any favors that's for sure.

If you don't understand CAFE restrictions, which are Average Fleet Fuel Consumption targets manufactures have to meet for the EPA and Congress then you probably have no idea why some of the light weight composite materials are used in manufacturing or that they have to be in order to meet Federal Guidelines.

Most people aren't aware that every year the EPA and the Congress come out with Environmental and Safety Laws that they impose on the Car Manufactures that cost millions and millions to implement and add more and more cost to the price of a car.

Most Americans are just truly ignorant, out for themselves, blinded by their own frustrations from living in a corporate world stacked against them.

So rather than fight those injustices...they fight the little guys who fought the injustices, had some pride and guts and determination and took risks...

Because it would make them feel oh so much better to know everyone that they can place a finger of blame on except themselves is suffering just the same for what they themselves won't take responsibility for.

The money Americans invest in Japan, China and Europe to buy their products does not come back to America in a way that helps Americans...that's just reality.

The money Americans won't ask for in wages is money that they can not use to improve the quality of their life and economy...that's just reality.

People need to look in the mirror and realize everyone is a part of this problem. When people start taking responsibility for how they contributed and contribute to the problem life will get better.

In the meantime the blame game gets you angry, off balanced, frightened and lets the government and big corporations run right all over you, and why shouldn't they, when the average American will in fact do everything that's not in the average American's interest or their own.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Auto Technicians truly deserve the 75.00 an hour management brings in for their labor.

Errrm, no. I worked in a dealership for a while and several things have to come out of that $75. Like rent, new hoists, payroll for the admin, service writers, warranty clerks, cleaners, water and cable for the customers, toilet paper, and the list goes on and on. Technicians are among the highest paid employees in any dealership and everyone there that supports them deserves a paycheque too.

Anyhoo, just be glad you aren't in Canada. GM underfunded the pension plan with the support of the union and now that their pension plan isn't there, they would like the Canadian taxpayer to kick in what's missing.

We should buy foreign anyways.

Better designs

Better quality

Soon they will employ more American's then the big 3

Sure the "corporate" centers are in Japan, Germany, what ever.. but I think that doesn't hurt my conscience one bit.

This is the other part most people are completely unaware of about General Motors.
General Motors is actually far more profitable for its principal owners and investors than most people know. Over the past couple of decades General Motors has spun off several profitable divisions in to stand alone companies that are no longer technically part of General Motors even though the biggest GM people still own them.

Delphi Electronics - makes a wide range of electronics that actually show up in every Toyota and Honda made most often in the form of On Board Diagnostic Systems needed to maintain EPA emissions requirements and High Capacity Air-Conditioning Systems.
It is an extremely profitable company.

EDS- Electronic Data Systems this is another monster of a company specializing in satellite dishes, advanced communication and computer networks. EDS makes a sizeable profit.

XM-Radio- The nation’s first satellite radio network has millions of subscribers including users of foreign car owners and home installation users. XM-Radio makes money.

On Star- This live customer service assistance center working with GPS navigational devices placed in cars rakes in the dollars with yearly subscriptions. On Star and one year service comes standard with such Car Lines as Lexus, and other foreign car companies who use the upscale navigational, safety, and concierge services that live On-Star Operators provide.

GMAC Home Loans- One of the reasons domestic auto manufactures are in such dire straights is their lending arms got into the home loan business back in the 90’s. GMAC was once very profitable before the credit crunch. This one backfired on them and the larger operation too.

Now lets look who is going to be insanely profitable…GM China! China bought more cars this year than America did. 20 years ago China was a country of mostly peasants where 1 out of every 20 people owned a car. Thanks to America’s thirst for cheap foreign made progress China is now the world’s number one consumer of oil and automobiles.

Do you think it was any coincidence that two years before the Arab Oil Embargos that laid waste to the Big Three that Steel Manufacturing was exported out of the United States and to Japan, where Steel is the number one ingredient in cars, just right before their entry into a new niche in the car market that politics created exploded into a manufacturing, production and retail boon to them.

Right now Americans are simply being asked to pay the cost of moving big companies to utilizing China as their biggest market. GM will be around another 100 years from now still in business, but GM like many companies are abandoning the American market for the Chinese market because silly Americans gave the Chinese all of our money.

See how that works. They sure do, even when the average American doesn’t.