US Buys Flankers for Aggressor Training

MOSCOW, May 12 (RIA Novosti) - The United States has bought two Su-27 Flanker fighter jets to help train U.S. pilots to cope with the growing number of Russian 4th-generation aircraft sold around the globe, a U.S. online magazine said.

The two planes have been bought from a private Ukrainian company by the Reno-based Tac Air, which provides training and test support for the military.

Source

They're not exactly modern examples of the technology, but it's interesting to see that the United States is going to be testing some of their equipment against the aircraft itself. Though, again, I don't believe it will provide an accurate picture of modern Russian arms. I believe that we all pretty well agree that the Su-27 and F-15 are reasonably on a level playing field, and we know that the F-22 completely dominates F-15's (and it would be fair to assume similar results from other new aircraft like F-35), so I'm not sure what they're expecting to learn from the aircraft. They might be better off trying to get their paws on Su-30 variants if they want practice against Russian stuff.

Its not likely that the Soviets would appreciate or be willing to sell the latest variants but I have no doubt that the CIA has been busy in this arean.

There are also many threads about Su-27's at Tonopah and these could be there to augment the force that already exists.

Cool find though

We had the "Constant Peg" program which had MiG-17's, 21's and 23's. Which I am guessing that is what FredT was talking about. They used them for aggressor training and the like. But its cool to here they have a few Flankers. God if I were John Travolta I would ditch the airliners and go for MiG's and Su's. The U.S Army also operates a few Russian slicks like the Mi-2, 8 and 24. (Hoplite, Hip, Hind)



[edit on 4-6-2009 by nastalgik]

Originally posted by FredT
Its not likely that the Soviets would appreciate or be willing to sell the latest variants but I have no doubt that the CIA has been busy in this arean.

I would say its pretty impossible for the Soviets to sell the US anything...

Originally posted by kilcoo316
I would say its pretty impossible for the Soviets to sell the US anything...

The Soviets sold so much stuff to so many people even I could buy some (given enough money)

And the yanks arn't above selling of older stuff... Iran has all those ageing F-14's - anyone know if they came directly from the USA? I doubt it, they would of come through an intermediary me thinks.

reply to post by nastalgik


Also there was Have Drill and have Donut as well. I recenty finished reading Red Eagles and while the programs above stopped years ago, they USAF and USN have kept active. The author of the book speculates that they are still flying airframes from current gen Soviet fighters.

Originally posted by Now_Then
And the yanks arn't above selling of older stuff... Iran has all those ageing F-14's - anyone know if they came directly from the USA? I doubt it, they would of come through an intermediary me thinks.

Nope. The F-14A's that Iran has were a new buy back when the Shah was in power. Came as a downselect between the F-15 and the Tomcat. Almost all were delivered except a few which were embargoed. They have never been upgraded and out of the 100 only a few are flying anymore.

Originally posted by Now_Then
And the yanks arn't above selling of older stuff... Iran has all those ageing F-14's - anyone know if they came directly from the USA? I doubt it, they would of come through an intermediary me thinks.

Nope. The F-14A's that Iran has were a new buy back when the Shah was in power. Came as a downselect between the F-15 and the Tomcat. Almost all were delivered except a few which were embargoed. They have never been upgraded and out of the 100 only a few are flying anymore.

Originally posted by FredT
Nope. The F-14A's that Iran has were a new buy back when the Shah was in power. Came as a downselect between the F-15 and the Tomcat. Almost all were delivered except a few which were embargoed. They have never been upgraded and out of the 100 only a few are flying anymore.

Hi Fred,

I think you have seen my earlier references to Tom Coopers work&book on the topic of Iranian Tomcat's so i wont repost them for now. I just found the following looking for some updates and it suggests ( as i earlier assumed as well) that that Iran may still be operating three dozen of them with indigenous manufactured AIM-54's to boot. I wonder about the missiles thought but it has been more than two decades and they did get a great deal of technical information so perhaps it could be...

www.futurefirepower.com...

Stellar

Originally posted by FredT
Its not likely that the Soviets would appreciate or be willing to sell the latest variants but I have no doubt that the CIA has been busy in this arean.

There are also many threads about Su-27's at Tonopah and these could be there to augment the force that already exists.

Cool find though

Ummm... no offense but is it 1981 were you live? "The Soviets" cant sell anyone anything because they don't exist. It is my understanding they are called Russians now since they are no longer communist.

I agree with Now_Then though. The former USSR would have and did sell lots of stuff to anyone that was willing to buy. I don't see why they wouldn't sell older planes to the US. If there is some cash on the line why not. Its not like the US doesn't have countermeasures for them already.

Originally posted by Now_Then
The Soviets sold so much stuff to so many people even I could buy some (given enough money)

But you wouldn't be buying it off Soviets now would you?


Tenses people, tenses....


Ye'd think we'd never moved on from the 1980s!

Originally posted by 3vilscript
[Ummm... no offense but is it 1981 were you live? "The Soviets" cant sell anyone anything because they don't exist. It is my understanding they are called Russians now since they are no longer communist.

Wake up and smell the Putin Yes thier hav ebeen some changes, but you only have to look as far as the conflict last year in Georgia to see that the bear is stirring eh?

Originally posted by FredT
but you only have to look as far as the conflict last year in Georgia to see that the bear is stirring eh?

Really?



And has the mujahideen in Afghanistan taught you folks nothing?

Ignorant to the bitter end.

Some of the older soviet planes came from Israel. A number of Syrian and Jordanian pilots sought refuge and brought their fighter jets with. There is case of one pilot who chose to defect because he wasn't made squadron commander.

NY Times - Syrian MiG defects.

Jensy

reply to post by FredT


In 1989, the Soviet Union spent 400 billion dollars on Defence, in 2009 Russia spent 40 billion. The same geography does not dictate that anything is the same.

reply to post by kilcoo316


Aside from your typical Eurocentric trash talking what exactly does that have to do with the topic at hand?

C0bzz
Spending levels have nothing to do with mentality, outlook, and territorial desires. In fact its worse than cold war Soviets, Putin is more of a modern Stalin.

[edit on 6/7/09 by FredT]

FredT is right, nothing much has really changed.

When it comes to these aircraft, however, that's more interesting. Putin would not allow aircraft to be sold from Russian to be sold to the USA- puts a damper on the exports to other countries that way.

I understand a bunch of Moldovian MiG29s ended up in the US a few years ago, and I've a funny feeling the 29s from the former DDR made their way there too (no sources on that, just some recollection from the back of my head).

Some have come from secret sources- like the aircraft that was sold off by some Eastern Bloc general to the US back in the 80s (I would suspect Poland). In fact, an aviation museum in the US wasn't allowed to show the cockpit of one of their MiGs off because it would have revealed where it came from (originally one of the secret MiGs). I understand the Hinds the US Army flies have the same caveat.

Regardless, interesting stuff.

Originally posted by FredT
Aside from your typical Eurocentric trash talking what exactly does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Hi Fred,

Eurocentric? How?

C0bzz
Spending levels have nothing to do with mentality, outlook, and territorial desires.

Beside the fact that spending levels are in my knowledge the only way to accomplish territorial desires? How can you have a imperialist mentality/outlook and NOT spend more than you can afford as the Pentagon expenditure so succintly proves?

In fact its worse than cold war Soviets, Putin is more of a modern Stalin.

Stalin was kind of unique in that way and no one after or before were quite so ambitious; Hitler ( and many others) in my opinion rightly feared Stalin as the man who who thought that capitalism would have to met on the field of battle to really check it's terribly influence on the world.

In that i don't want to suggest that Stalins model society were 'better' but that it was the twisted product of the same fear that has undermined the efforts of countries such as Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam to not only be independent but be allowed independent social and economic models.

How you can compare Putin to Stalin i don't know but i suspect there is not much reason, in terms of factual date you can point me to, being employed in the process.

Stellar

Originally posted by FredT
Aside from your typical Eurocentric trash talking what exactly does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Question: What country is currently running half way across the world to impose "regime change"?


Answer: Not f**king Russia.



Sometimes you yanks need to get your head our of your own asses and see where your government* has led you. Blind patriotism is leading you nowhere good... just like in 1930s Germany.

But you all truly believe your media are telling you the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then come down on people that tell you different.


*read - corporations that pay for the "ticket"

Originally posted by FredT
Spending levels have nothing to do with mentality, outlook, and territorial desires.

Yes... indeed...



Spending:

news.bbc.co.uk...

The top 10 military spenders:
USA $607bn
China $84.9bn
France $65.74bn
UK $65.35bn
Russia $58.6bn
Germany $46.87bn
Japan $46.38bn
Italy $40.69bn
Saudi Arabia $38.2bn
India $30.0bn
Source: Sipri. All figures from 2008.



Who is galavanting off in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Who was making noises about invading Iran until they realised they couldn't afford it? Who was off installing long range radar and anti ballistic missile silos in central Europe?

Who has the most overseas military bases?

Who has the most aircraft carriers in the world? (mighty good at defending the continental US of A aren't they... oh wait, they're for projecting power into someone else's country).





Look in the goddamn mirror!


[edit on 9/6/09 by kilcoo316]