Quantum Theory Observer, some questions

hey its ok

i was not arguing with him thats the problem lol i was pointing out something about the observer issue.

we are at the top of that little apex

but thanks for adding me as a foe im sure you wont be the last.. or the first.



In quatum physics you are both right and wrong .. in life is no difference. why?

read it again and then understand what i said will help you even if you have a phd in im the smartest guy in the class...

a guy whith a phd once said the world was flat and he was right.. why? he was looking down at his feet...

thats narrowmindedness

Originally posted by ambushrocks

So how's the stance of quantum theory towards time? Is it relative? Do all times exist simutaniously? Is it subjective? Objective?

All time is on time. It is very important to know this if your are to understand matter and energy.

But time differs from dimension to dimension. Or matter to matter or energy to energy.

Time also differs from interactions between matter and matter and energy matter or energy and energy. Both in speed, polarisation, depolarisation, reflection, subtraction and merging and so on.

I am going to use an example to illustrate time By using time traveling.

If you remember what i said: That all time is on time. You will understand this.

Lets say you would like to travel into the future.

To do that you would have to isolate your self from the dimension of space time that you are existing in at present space time.

Space time means a dimension with time (changes).

And you would have to bring along a life support system to be able to survive in the future.

Why!

Because of the time each matter and energy needs to change and create the future.
Now some matter and energy will reach the future before other matter because of the time lap each matter needs to have to make a change. Or change dimension.

Energy(frequency)static and light is the matter with fastest changes that we know of. These matters and energies will set the foundation for the matter to come next. Because everything comes in a perfect order of time.

Meaning the matters and energies with fastest changes comes first and so on until everything is in present time space.

But what is present time space ?

We humans are a dimension with changes. And our changes fallow a clock of time. Meaning we fallow the clock of changes within what we are made up by. And what we are made up by interact with the energy and matter in the space time we exist within.

Our time will seam like the present time. But it is only present time to us and our dimension. Because we change at a slower rate then other dimensions of energies and matter.


So time is relative to the speed of changes in matter and energies.

If you use a standard time it will be the relative to the changes in the matter you observe. It will be the changes in the standard compared to the changes in the matter observed. So you will have two different dimensions of time.










[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

OKAY PEOPLE

I wish to once again draw your attention to THIS REQUEST I made on Page3 of this thread.

I requested Civility, and remaining On-Topic.

I had u2ued people to remind them of that.

I had issued Off-Topic Warns and made edits to reaffirm that.

I did that yesterday - yet today it still continues.

There is no claim of innocence now.

Hence you will see a whole bunch of Off-Topics and related Warns now littering the previous page following that request.


Once again for clarity:
- Remain On-Topic.

- On-topic DOES NOT INCLUDE PERSONAL ATTACKS BLENDED INTO YOUR SEEMINGLY ON-TOPIC REPLY. The majority of the OffTopic Warns I have now issued was due to exactly that...blending in snarky sidejabs and/or personal comments into your reply.
Just be thankful I didn't hit it with a Manners Warns which attracts TWICE the point penalty.

- Remain Civil. You are more than welcome to debate the TOPIC/POST...but not the Poster. You are all capable of replying without the added digs at eachother.

- Finally...any further continuancy of the above will result in not a Warning, but a 3-day Posting Ban being applied to your Member Account.

- If anyone wishes to challenge any actions taken, then please feel free to do so either via Alerting my reply here, or by utilising the Complain/Suggestion Link in your Member Centres,



Peace.

reply to post by spy66


Thank you very much for your reply. I've read it a couple of times now but I still need some time to let it settle in my brain. I'll try to get back to you about it later!

hey there i just wanted to give people a link

www.hawking.org.uk...

This is a very very important lecture for me.. since i was a kid this person has always been my hero for the questions he asks "hes alot smarter than me yes" but we both want one thing to understand!!

I have talked with him about this subject myself ..

does god play dice? you be he does lol but how does this relate to the topic?

You see quatom physiics IS about understanding a level of the question

please understand the function of a question is not the same thing as is the sky blue..

its this part "is" what matters.. if you take away all things we are left with a choice and a proberble outcome!

so? what does this mean? well it means we are going toe to toe with the most powerfull thing we know right now

the question! the ver very tiny thing you do befor you say YES and NO.. its soooo minute but overlooked..

we do it everyday every single day we make a choice.. when to get up when to go to sleep how to talk to others what to ware..

we over look what the process is to do this.. its not about humans "granted we are the observer" but its about the interaction of particals atoms also "was pointed out by CW" its how we understand the observation!!

the question can be ,, mmm a line! you know the line that binds all the atoms all the things we see and know the question "is more than just something of a choice" its the back bone of our understanding.. but when we look at this in a physical aspect it gets very very wiered.. well if a question is asking a question it would

But understand the question has rules.. and that is wat we are trying to look for..

its about scale.. the scale of the question!

dont confuse "is the sky blue" with the methord of why .. or you miss the point.

and the answer? the question .. the methord of why is the answer to what.


its very confusing i do agree! we are both here our mind has no shape.. the universe has no shape but the levels of logical instances are your body the sun the tree the leaf the butterfly wings pattens

it loops! but what makes it loop? what is infact looping?

the question is what is making it loop the very thing we all do everyday is what makes our lovely universe keep on going.

The expansion of our universe is only the questions that we ask IT made us to ask.. or we wouldnt


1+1 = 3 for a reason YOU are the one doing the calculation

Originally posted by ambushrocks
...in this theory is interaction the only way to manifest reality?

i am not entirely sure what information you are looking for....but i will try my best.

i mentioned to an earlier poster that there is only one basic paradigm of the universe. (nomenon PHEnomenon) In other words: stuff, and the perception of stuff.

many people (even here in this thread) like to argue that "the universe existed long before consciousness came around." WHA?! i suppose that sounds logical, but this is one of those things that is fundamentally un-provable.

so the answer is: YES, the interaction of (stuff and the perception of stuff) is the ONLY way to manifest reality.

Can someone shed some more light on the time thing?

physical, three-dimensional reality exists within Time, but proper three-dimensional space officially ends when you measure something smaller than an atom. this does not mean that Time does not have application to subatomic particles....

the simplest answer is that Time and Quantum Mechanics act in tandem to one another...almost as if they are different levels of the same thing.

this is an intensely complex question that you have asked. if you really, really, really, want to know the answer, take a look at the drawing below, taken from this thread.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/311fade2810ee51b.jpg[/atsimg]


this drawing is a cross-section model of the toroidal motion of our multi-demensional universe.

you can see that the "time node" and "quantum node" both lie on the same vertical axis down the center. this represents the fact that they both behave in nearly identical ways, and that they have immediate access to one another, and that they both create motion within the vacuum.

(please note: NO-ONE has THE answer to your time/QM question. the answer i have given here is specifically within the domain of speculation.)

reply to post by tgidkp


very correct! no one does have the answer.. this is our problem!

infact this is what iv been trying to point out "loved that post btw"

what is relitive is the wording here very very important "and my grammer is tosh"

a question = a line

an answer = circule

you see this problem?

we are on the line in a circule! hehe

the question leads to things like infinity P.I and choas.. this is the nature of the beast or oddnumbers "never odd" always even why? "the question"

Logic is only on a level not the total..

we need BOTH to be alive.. infiniyt is only a manisefation (sp) of the question .. the logical part is the choice that was made

what is a symmertirc shape? i mirror image? what is in the middle of the image?

a line the true chaos of it all this line is needed in order to get the rest


its hard to bend your mind.. but think for a moment about this

what shape is your mind?

yep keep thinking.. now you know what shape the universe is



the thing that connects us all.. the question! its not a paradox atall.. its very very logical.. the universe IS a logical system.. we just make it Elogical why?

well you asked why thats the problem.. the universe will not answer you but it will give you every answer you want to get if you just ask of it not what it is..

@ tgidkp and symmetricA:

Thank you both immensly for taking the time to explain all these things to me. I start to understand more and more of it! I understand that we are talking about things that exist of probabilities and not certainties... but it's important for me to know these things.. It gives me a better understanding of how things could work.

The connection with dialectic philosophy is up until so far consistent with everything you guys have posted. To me this is rather amazing, because I thought when I started this thread that there would be only some similairities.

I'm taking notes of all your replies and theories and will try to put them together in a kind of article or something like that. Than we can post it on ATS if you like. (this will take some time though... but I think other people may be interested in this too)

reply to post by ambushrocks


hey its ok im happy you made the thread. we can only speculate but thats the fun part for me. it lets us understand it better

after many years of my own study i can say things that i feel are right.. the question most deffinitly the answer.

I used odd numbers to understand led me into infinity led me to live or how it could come about. and the funny thing was the very thing i neglectied

the question

i dont know how or why i know this info but i can honeslty say here on ats

the very same thing that makes you ask why "make a choice" is the very thing that created the universe "or atleast how it works"


I dont know who made it or care.. but i do know what its doing! and why we get life and the question links EVERYTHING

a question is infinity its that missing part. we didnt look at the function we missed.

Seed magazine did an article called "the reality tests". I highly reccomend reading it.

The reality tests

At the end of the article, the quote states;

"I asked Dr. Zeilinger about this as I was about to leave his office. “In the history of physics, we have learned that there are distinctions that we really should not make, such as between space and time… It could very well be that the distinction we make between information and reality is wrong. This is not saying that everything is just information. But it is saying that we need a new concept that encompasses or includes both.” Zeilinger smiled as he finished: “I throw this out as a challenge to our philosophy friends.”

A major factor in QM is information...or at least how we define it. I tend to think that at the plank scale, there is no physical definition between to points in space. It's just information that the brain (which you MUST factor into the equasion) must decode according to what it ALREADY knows. You can not account for the observed, unless you account for the observer. Physics is running around trying to measure our universe, but we still don't understand our consciousness, the measuring device.

Large bodies, such as planets are easy to observe as being subject to gravity. As are mountains, rocks, and other large bodies in a video game such as Halo 3. But when you zoom in of the definition, you start to realize that gravity, planets, rocks and mountains do not objectivly exist. It's information and processing that creates the perception that there's gravity that holds everything together. There's physical rules for interaction, don't doubt that. But the more you zoom in, the more you understand that solidity is only a probability, and reality is actually a wave of possible interactions between information. State changes.

Hope this helps in your quest for answers.

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by ambushrocks

 

hey its ok

im happy you made the thread. we can only speculate but thats the fun part for me. it lets us understand it better

after many years of my own study i can say things that i feel are right.. the question most deffinitly the answer.

I used odd numbers to understand led me into infinity led me to live or how it could come about. and the funny thing was the very thing i neglectied

the question

i dont know how or why i know this info but i can honeslty say here on ats

the very same thing that makes you ask why "make a choice" is the very thing that created the universe "or atleast how it works"


I dont know who made it or care.. but i do know what its doing! and why we get life and the question links EVERYTHING

a question is infinity its that missing part. we didnt look at the function we missed.

I agree

Its all in the question you ask your self.

When it comes to understanding of matter and energy her on earth. I started to think of a distillation plant.

The heat created by earth and the sun makes matter and life forms at the top. Where the heat (pressure) keeps everything where it belongs. This pressure acts like a gravity field to matter.

And i went on from there.

Heat is the pressure that controls the time lap in matter and life everywhere. The higher the temperature (pressure) the faster things change. Pressure is never constant so nothing can have a constant speed of changes. Just think of the weather it is never constant. And think of the seasons we have. Each season brings a change because of the changes in temperature and temperature is pressure.


That's also why scientists say that if you live in space your time will go at a slower rate. But that is not actually true as long as the space station is heated with 20/80 mixture of oxygen and nitrogen up to the pressure needed for life support. But since they float in their space station they might use a lighter mixture of gases. This is just an example.

If the pressure deviates to much from 1 bar they will either frees to death,die of dehydration or be poisoned in a period of time.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by tobiascore
....the distinction we make between information and reality is wrong.

i very much identify with this quote. i want to mention that in my above diagram, the vertical axis where the quantum and time nodes intersect, i have many times referred to as "information" or "knowledge".

right on, bro. this article is going to be a great read. and your post was spot on.

reply to post by spy66


hey thanks spy

I know many dont understand it in a way i present "my fault".. but its hard to try to say what it means in a way.

the function of asking is alot more real to me i guess than the answer. now i do simplify it alot.. as only i understand what i mean.

look at our entire universe.. what do we see? we see levels suns atoms ect ect and scale law but what combinds all this???

i use question as more of a metaphore for a reason so people understand it abit better ..

when you think what is it that you do? you do 2 things

you use a negitive and a positve.. there is 2 things to begin with..

so what is holding this in place? on the scale law? well its the very question correct?

If humans or life was not here.. how would we understand the universe? well we simply wouldnt for we would not be here.. so we have 1 clue.. something " a methord" dont matter what put me and you here and my cat or dog or tree..

and that means what? well it means out of all this chaos we did infact get order! what is order?

its the choice being made for us .. think of the universe as a question its question is how do i be me.. its answer? was life.. the only down side to this is life is infact a mirror of the creation of the universe "infinity" we see what infact made us and in turn gave rise to use being able to make it..

self replication "thats why we have kids" its a function not a something..

the question is the WAY its made the answer is showing you the results of it..

so the more you ask IT what IT is the more you will ask! the LESS you ask but understand HOW it infact works "not a question" you will infact understand more! "ie observation"..

this is a key factor here .. the good part is we can use the methord of a question "function" to infact give us answers

its using the very same weapong of our cluelessness to infact understand the universe and what its doing..

Infinity is very real.. its you me and life "everything" asking why.. when the why is infact the thing that put life here..

its a scale thing very complex yes.. simple yes..

we are both.. look at your body.. then try think about what shape your mind is.. this is the paradox we have and that very paradox is what or who made this place.

we are stuck here yes... but we can have alot of fun being stuck here.. infact we can have so much fun we can make a universe and be god and then we ask the questions and see what happens


the bible was not about me or you but how life infact got here and it was not a joke nore was it an acceident.. it was VERY VERY real and who ever did this job knew how to put both aspects of how we think into one shape.

we are the tempel and our mind is well.. the builder of the temple

Sorry to get all biblical but i thought it would help you understand abit better kidna thing

Originally posted by tgidkp

Originally posted by tobiascore
....the distinction we make between information and reality is wrong.

i very much identify with this quote. i want to mention that in my above diagram, the vertical axis where the quantum and time nodes intersect, i have many times referred to as "information" or "knowledge".

right on, bro. this article is going to be a great read. and your post was spot on.

Thanks man!

Mainstream science tends to classify information as a physical thing. If that were true, then information should be objective. But since it takes a consciousness to interprit information, and consciousness being a subjective thing, you step into the relm of information being a subjective thing not bound by physical rules of interaction. Thus, "non-physical".


Could information actually be non-physical?

Sooo, c'mon science. Let's get open our mind a bit.


*edit for leaving out a sentance.


[edit on 15-4-2009 by tobiascore]

Originally posted by ambushrocks
reply to post by spy66

 

Thank you very much for your reply. I've read it a couple of times now but I still need some time to let it settle in my brain. I'll try to get back to you about it later!

If you really want to get quantum. Think of pressure.

Think that the more pressure you have the more matter interact in that space time.

Less pressure the less matter you have that interact in that space time.

And at zero pressure no matter interact at all. Because at zero pressure you have no matter or temperature.

This is the aria where you will find the string theory and the knowledge of time.

reply to post by symmetricAvenger


I have to agree again. All you need is a thought to get started. And i think what you say is a great way to get started. You have a thought then you ask your self about the possibilities of changes and interactions.

The difficult part starts when you want to measure and document your conclusions or study.
Building the instruments and measuring systems for observations is the science that demands a lot of skills and understanding. This is where things get physical and difficult. You need skills within math and physics to be able to make the right instruments. And you also have to have an idea and understanding of what you want to observe. If not you wont know what measurements to use or instruments to build.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by symmetricAvenger what happened to the folding of space, to get from point A to point B? that's not the same as thinking it, is it?

Originally posted by echodogene
reply to post by symmetricAvenger what happened to the folding of space, to get from point A to point B? that's not the same as thinking it, is it?

 

Well it started out with a thought from observations and studies.

You would need to create pressure beyond imagination to bend space time.

Space is not like a blanket. Its more like a soup of matter all around. Taken our size in consideration compared to space time it self.

You can't bend it but make a field of pressure to travel faster through. By using pressure to separate some matter from your path.

But that would demand some really good engineering and materials.

And you would have to know what pressure(matter) there is every step of the way from destination A to B so it doesn't kill you. The changes your field of pressure has must be able to change verrrry fast depending on the matter that it hits on its way.


Think of bending space would be like standing on the bottom of the ocean and trying to bend the sea of water so you can fly out. But that the sea is so high that it doesn't end.

If you study Gasses in pressurized fluid you will get the idea of what might be needed to be able to move faster.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by echodogene


well we do infact time travel.. only problem is its only your mind that infact does it.. your body on the other hand .. well thats a pradox...

when you think back to when you was a child you time travel.. but you dont go anyplace correct but your mind does. you body is a time machine.. and it can affect the future "only your timeline in ways" but it can have the ability to affect others.. lets look at this abit

if you put ur finger in fire it burns? you learn from this.. then you teach your kids not to play with fire...

You did 2 things.. you learned from your mistake.. you Know it to be true you can always look back and change this with knowing fire does ifnact burn. when you have a kid you change the time line for this kid by ur understanding of fire = bruning not good.. so the kid will never "in time" burn its finger..

you are alot more complex than you think

we are everything we see and understand.. Everything.. and its the why that enbles it all to happen..

To get your body to go back in time is alot harder.. you would infact need another universe to do so! "a universe that was the paralell choice"

Not the same universe but another one thats the "other choice" ect

to go faster than light in out universe is hard and easy the hard bit is understanding we have to be OUTSIDE the universe to travel faster! the hard part is getting IN and OUT and back IN again "in the same universe you left"

crackers heh

reply to post by symmetricAvenger thankyou for trying to simplify this "complex" subject for me. i have alway's been fascinated with QP but sadly enough the more answers i get the more questions arise