How can the infinite universe expand?

The expansion or inflation of the universe is considered to create the space as it goes, so to speak. It doesn't inflate into anything. Whether it keeps on with inflation or it contracts again depends on the type of universe.

If we have a flat universe it is considered to be infinite and inflation will continue but will slow down considerably.

If we have an open universe it is also considered to be infinite and will continue with inflation but with less slowing.
If we have a closed universe it is spatially finite and may end in a crunch.

When I studied a few years ago the prevailing theory was that we have a flat universe, with Omega close to 1. The WMAP results have contributed greatly to this impression.

if the multiverse theory is correct and there are higher dimensions in the bulkspace then our 4 dimension space time framework is expanding into a 10 11 or 26 dimensional hyperspace bulkspace w/e label you want to put on it

but like symmetric said its all to do with this dark energy dark matter dilema. i call it a dilema due to the fact that our understanding of it is its name sake our understanding of it is just as dark as the stuff itself

if we find the graviton (by measuring its absence) then we will know why the repulsive force has over powered gravity at least in this period of expansion as gravity is not bound by 4-d space-time and can interact with the higher dimensions lessening its impact on its source 4-d space-time

but the source of the "dark energy" would still be a mystery

As for our 4d spacetime being infinite i dont think that our individual 4 dimensional space is infinite (mind the fact that this is opinion) but is just a piece of a much larger bulkspace that we are expanding into



[edit on 15-4-2009 by constantwonder]

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by nixie_nox
so if the universe expands and comes back, what is outside of the universe then?


my personally, i never thought of hte universe itself expading, just the stuff that is in it.

Why does there have to be something outside the Universe? What's in the spaces between atoms?

inbetween atoms in an object is vaccum as there is space there but not enough for another atom to reside there

since we dont yet know wether there is something "outside" our universe or not i cannot answer the why but i think i can help with the why people think there is

1 the universe is expanding

2 for the universe to grow more space-time must be created and creation takes energy

3 for work to be done (creating) energy must come from somewhere else

4 the only possible place for this energy to come from is a source out side the 4 dimensional spacetime we experience

5 because the energy has to come from somewhere there must be something in which we are epanding into that our space=time is leeching off of

on a side note please understand that we may very poossibly be losing gravity creating mass when gravitions leave our membrane which would also imply that there is something beyond what we know for the gravitons to be moving into

so we are eather gaining energy from somewhere enlarging the universe or we are losing gravity giving mass and the space time that we are in is becoming more stretched within the bulkspace

edit to add a thought i just had


this isnt anything i have ever researched or read research but what if the "outside" the universe is negative space that draws something into it

say you have a hollow tube corked on one and you evacuate the air you create a negative space and what is that the negative space wants to do? draw in air or positive space

perhaps outside our universe is a negative space that attracts or fills up with the positive space just like the vaccum wants the air to expand and rush back in



[edit on 15-4-2009 by constantwonder]

the question is infinite.. the universe expands because we keep asking what it is..

only logical reason for it.. keep asking it will get bigger stop asking the thing gets smaller why does it get smaller?

well you understand it more ! and we are able to travers it faster.

The only thing that is constant is the question.. you body is fininte.. the universe is not but the question is

paradox ? you betcha

Originally posted by nixie_nox
so if the universe expands and comes back, what is outside of the universe then?


my personally, i never thought of hte universe itself expading, just the stuff that is in it.

Good question! If it has a "boundary" of some kind, then by definition it must reside relative to what is infinite, even if infinite nothingness, and so, IMHO, it cannot be described except in terms of the infinite, since the infinite surrounds it, and surely gave rise to it, since it had to have come from somewhere, and if uncaused and always, then again it's infinite.

Therefore the universe (one song) is infinite, even if only in terms of it's relative frame of reference, and if it's framed by infinity, then it is OF infinity, and if infinity is its parent if you will, then it too is or will be infinite.

And since you cannot define an end point to an infinite progression - we live in an eternally unfolding present moment, and thus, if you are here now and a part of it, then at the most fundamental level, you too are of the infinite variety, provided you can be reconciled with wholeness and perfection, which is our true nature and our uncourrupted true self. Praise God let there be no orphans.

Am I describing a rational philosophy of eternal life? Yes. There is no escaping it as far as I can tell, thank God! Welcome to the end of time!

Best Regards,

OmegaPoint

You know...that was a pretty fine argument, i'd be curious if anyone can poke a hole in it!

[edit on 15-4-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by AntiConspirator


I think it is important to note that the observable universe is expanding.

No one really know either the boundaries or even what "universe" means beyond that which is observable.

I'd say it is EITHER boundless and infinite, OR, it has a boundary. Then again, knowing the universe, it's probably some crazy bounded boundless twisting pretzel of some kind or maybe it's a multidimensional soccer ball, which still begs the question about the nature of the field upon which it rolls.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


ok let me put this in prespective

what shape is your mind? your thoughts? can you put that into a shape?


that is infact the same shape of the universe.. i know that makes no sens but its not ment to..

The mind IS the very same thing the very same shape the very question is infinity

dont confuse the two...

I'd just say the whole thing is bullcrud speculation to make for the fact we don't really know jack, rather like the idea of the Big Bang that supposedly spawned the expansion and the Dark Matter that was conjured to prove it. But that is just me.

There Are No Infinite Quantities in Nature

I trust that got your attention, OP.

It's a fact. Our most sensitive instruments agree with the picture of the cosmos built up by mainstream physical science. Nothing in nature is infinite, and that includes the universe.

But though the universe is finite in size, estimates of how big it is vary. It ought to be simple to measure: we know how fast light travels in a vacuum and how old the universe is, so we should be able to calculate its radius, surface area and volume easily enough. The universe should be about 27 billion light-years wide.

In fact, the measurement is a lot trickier than that. Light didn't always travel at the speed it does in the present-day universe. Soon after the big bang, the speed of light was greater than it is now. That's one issue. Another is that, in addition to the universe itself expanding at the speed of light, space (the medium in which the universe is expanding) is also 'inflating'. Relativistic effects add to the complexity.

The truth is that no-one knows just how big the universe is. Wikipedia puts its diameter as around 93 billion light-years. This 2004 Space.com report says 156 billion light-years. These are far from being the only figures on offer.

They're big numbers, sure enough. But they are not infinite.

The universe is finite. There are no infinite quantities in nature.

[edit on 15/4/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


hehe

sorry but i had to give you a star for that comment totaly spot on

what we dont know is infact the answer to what we will find out!!

querky! dark matter is ### and the only reason we have it is the higgs partical and that dumb equation ; )

i guess you know what i mean

star for you sir

reply to post by Astyanax


And when did we as a speices take stock of all the contents of all the universe? Much less how did we forget how to travel so that we could take stock of the entire universe? Or even that we did it?
You understand where I am going with this right?

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
You understand where I am going with this right?

Frankly, no. Perhaps you could make yourself a little clearer.

I'll try to do the same. Our instruments show that the real world, as far as we can measure it, is in reasonable agreement with theory. And the theory predicts no infinite quantities.

Do you understand why I'm suggesting that the "frame" of the universe is unfinite, since it is contained within nothingness?

reply to post by Astyanax


The best our instruments can tell us is my problem with it. Those instruments are created by man and thusly affected at least a little by his limitations. There is an implication of precision that really if you think about it is untennable unless you have faith in those assuring you of precision. Basically regardless what our theories state and regardless how much nature seems to validate those theories it is not fact.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Basically regardless what our theories state and regardless how much nature seems to validate those theories it is not fact.

Oh, that old quiblle again. The unreliability of perception and induction: it's become the last refuge of the irrealist.

As I said earlier: reality keeps faith with us, no matter how we neglect her to go whoring after fantasy. And that is just what fantasists most object to.

reply to post by Astyanax


Ah, so reality is so easy figured out eh? It's worth noting that what is fantasy to one person is reality to another. Sure you may think your reality is the ultimate reality but I hate to tell you, you're just another ant *in the big scheme of things* like the rest of us and while your opinion does count for something in the end it is just another opinion.

[edit on 16-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Thnx for all of your guys's inputs. Whether it be helpful, or just argueing. I enjoyed reading them. MY question was some what asnwered. I got an idea about it now. The universe is mostly just stretching, not expanding.

i think the universe is expanding in both directions: outwardly and inwardly

somehow...

it is the mythical principle behind the idea of Ain Sof in Kabbalah - the idea being that as it grows out, it evidently gets bigger and bigger - but when growing inward, the smaller it gets and the more complex, the more perfect it becomes

it is a very paradoxical idea but i think that fundamentally, the universe and all that it is, is essentially a paradox...

picture a yin-yang and not only the white part being the full part and the dark part being the vacuum but both parts being both empty and full at the same time

the more the universe expands, the more *space* it creates in which, and toward, it can expand

check out this fractal...it pretty much sums up what i'm trying to express:



[edit on 4/23/2009 by queenannie38]