Lawmakers meet Castros, urge end to embargo

Yeah, and I am sorely dissapointed in those that view this as some sort of benefit to the Cuban People.

This money will only go to help the Communist hierarchy that is in place in that Island nation.
They have had trade with MANY nations for years, and yet what benefit have they gained from this?

Originally posted by jasonjnelson They have had trade with MANY nations for years, and yet what benefit have they gained from this?

That's a very good question. Why don't you pay a visit yourself and tell us all what your impressions are. Talk to the people...look around...go off the beaten trail and talk to the common everyday Cuban. Ask your questions of them, and report back to us. I'd be intersested in your take on the place.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Hmmm.

You know, johnny, you keep coming to my threads, and I am flattered, but what is up with your statements?

So my interactions with HUNDREDS of Cuban Ex-Pats aren't enough insight into the issue?

Well, can you point out to me where the benefits of the current trading partners of Cuba are benefitting common Cubans?
I can say what my friends tell me, which is that THERE ARE NONE.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson So my interactions with HUNDREDS of Cuban Ex-Pats aren't enough insight into the issue?

Would you accept second and third hand information as gospel under other circumstances? You sound smart enough not to bet the farm on what anybody with a build-in bias has to say.

Well, can you point out to me where the benefits of the current trading partners of Cuba are benefitting common Cubans?
I can say what my friends tell me, which is that THERE ARE NONE.

Outside of universal health care and free education up to PhD? Guaranteed food ration, which if they are lucky, is adequate? Go there. The people are a lot better off than most third world peoples in the hemisphere. Is the government perfect? Decidedly not. But you can troll the dregs of American...and Canadian...life and come up with statements similar to those coming from your 'expats'. When I say 'troll the dregs', I'm trying to come up with an equivalent oppositee to 'cherry pick'.

You see what you wanna see. Go to Cuba with an open mind, and tell me what you see. Consider, when setting your filters, China, Saudi Arabia, Columbia...all the 'friends' of the United States. And tell me what Cuba did that set it apart from them...that makes them a government to shun.

If you wanna shun them because they nationalised American-owned interests, that I can at least process. Anything else is hypocrisy

Go there...report back.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by awake_awoke

 

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you.

I have known MANY Cubans, and they agree that it is more than just trade issues.

If you can't see why having a communist gov't might be a bad thing, please exit stage left, before you end up poisoning MY Republic.

But I suppose a lack of free speach would allow you to avoid my rebuttal, huh?

Well,
I hope nobody ends up poisoning your republic.

Condoning communism has nothing to do with condoning trade or travel with a communist country.

You can't be "ideologically superior" and refuse to do business with anyone who doesn't follow your beliefs...
The thing is, unlike say for example China, Cuba really doesn't have that much to offer us economically.

I have very little time to post, but i do agree with Electric Universe on this.
I rather doubt the Cuban people will benefit from any of this soon... It will however, go into Castros pocket.

More later- I am vacationing in Florida.

reply to post by awake_awoke


Look, the reality is, that this is ALL about their gov't. And when did I ever say that I support trade with China?

Look what that has gotten us;
China uses an artificially supported currency, slave labor, NO environmental oversight, and now BILLIONS in U.S. debt.

Seems to me that working with that type of gov't would be a bad thing.

Originally posted by awake_awoke The thing is, unlike say for example China, Cuba really doesn't have that much to offer us economically.

Castro has turned the economy around to tourism since the fall of the Soviet empire put Cuba's subsidised sugar down the dumper. Safe clean and inexpensive destinations. Beautiful beaches, lovely people, low crime. Excellent rum and cigars. No snow.

Indeed...nothing to offer the US. We Canadians, Brits and Krauts will just have to suffer on your behalf.

I can do this.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Now, now I hold two passports-one of them being Brit.
My parents have been to Cuba, my husband had a heck of a time there not too long ago....
I shall soon be "suffering" with you all!

However, even though they say subsized sugar is gone, I'm sure thats one of the reasons we haven't extended our hand sooner...being a Floridian IMHO....

Like I said before, it is OUTDATED. They are a "natural" trade partner and vacation spot.
You can't be all "free market" and then start throwing around embargos based on outdated ideological policies. Pick one or the other!!!!!!!!

Cuba is not the same Cuba it was 40 years ago. Raul is not Fidel.
They're on the way to getting with the program....why would we want to hinder this?

Originally posted by awake_awoke
Let this south floridian give you her two cents:

Cuba is our NATURAL trading partner. I'm not sure if it has something to do with Big Sugar or not. Where does Cuba end up going? Chavez? We can still go Caracas!
Um, and lets not forget China and Russia and all the business we do with them....

So Obama wants to first off let family members travel to see their relatives in Cuba. Second of all, not place restrictions on the $$$ they can send them.
Can you give me a darn good reason why that is not a good idea?
...........

No, Obama, and his administration want to lift all sanctions from the Cuban dictatorship, this is not going to help the people.

Cuban expatriats can, and do still go visit their families. I have done so, and I have come back with only the clothes in my back because I gave everything I had on me, including my watch, and my extra clothes to my cousins and family members who don't have such luxuries. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

The administration wants to lift the sanctions off a dictatorship that has oppressed Cubans for over 50 years, this is not going to help the Cuban people, but will further assure the dictatorship is in place.

Raul is the same as fidel castro. The system is already in place and only a minority are living in luxury because they are part of the system, and don't want to change it.

The People don't have guns, or other firearms, except for the rifle every neighborhood used to have with limited ammo for the night watches some regular Cuban had to do, but even that has stopped occurring.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Castro has turned the economy around to tourism since the fall of the Soviet empire put Cuba's subsidised sugar down the dumper. Safe clean and inexpensive destinations. Beautiful beaches, lovely people, low crime. Excellent rum and cigars. No snow.

Indeed...nothing to offer the US. We Canadians, Brits and Krauts will just have to suffer on your behalf.

I can do this.

Oh boy, and you don't want to listen, like so many others to the Cuban people who have lived in the island, and know what has and is really happening there?...

All you have claimed are nothing more than lies, from someone, like so many others who don't want to believe what the Cuban people tells them is happening in the island.. Like many other people would rather not listen to the people who ahve experienced dictatorships in other parts of the world, because "tourists" say so...

The beautiful beaches you speak of are only for tourists, real Cubans can't go there, and every place you go as a tourist is just a tourist sham. You will have to walk several miles to see what is a real Cuban neighborhood full of mountains of trash on the streets, which no truck picks up, and with crimes occurring daily.

As for the claim that castro cleaned up Cuba.... Yeah, he cleaned up, alongside with Che Guevara any hopes for people to rise against the dictatorship, and installed a system that is oppressing the people to this day. That's what they did.

Please stop reciting nothing more than lies and propaganda about a situation you obviously know nothing about.

[edit on 8-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Castro has turned the economy around to tourism since the fall of the Soviet empire put Cuba's subsidised sugar down the dumper. Safe clean and inexpensive destinations. Beautiful beaches, lovely people, low crime. Excellent rum and cigars. No snow.

Oh boy, and you don't want to listen, like so many others to the Cuban people who have lived in the island, and know what has and is really happening there?...

For what it's worth, I spoke to a bunch of Cubans while I was down there, both on the resort and wandering the streets of Santa Clara with my wife...among other communities.

All you have claimed are nothing more than lies, from someone, like so many others who don't want to believe what the Cuban people tells them is happening in the island.. Like many other people would rather not listen to the people who ahve experienced dictatorships in other parts of the world, because "tourists" say so...

I can only address what I saw and who I spoke with. Not everybody was a police agent, I'm sure...people on the streets, in the shops...healthy looking and well dressed going about their business. Kids in schools...clean, wearing clean uniforms. I know what's in the shops...what you can buy with pesos and with convertable pesos as well. These were not Potemkin villages.

The beautiful beaches you speak of are only for tourists, real Cubans can't go there, and every place you go as a tourist is just a tourist sham. You will have to walk several miles to see what is a real Cuban neighborhood full of mountains of trash on the streets, which no truck picks up, and with crimes occurring daily.

I saw lots of Cubans on the beaches. Those with the money can also buy day passes to the resorts as well. I suggest you go to tripadvisor.com to see comments by other tourists. People who get out and around. Who go to the countryside and stay with folks.

Please stop reciting nothing more than lies and propaganda about a situation you obviously know nothing about.

I'm quite comfortable that I know what I'm talking about. Moreso than what is being said by people who are not allowed to go there. But the fact is I hear more propaganda about Cuba from America than I did in-country about themselves. Makes ya think. Police states are not perfect by their very nature. But as I said, I can find abuse and excesses right here, too.

Amigo, I'm not hear to disparage or dismiss your personal experience. But I'm entitled to an opinion as well.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

The united States is being transformed into a True Socialist nation or worse, into a Communist nation...

While for years people kept claiming none of this would happen, here it is...

OMG! A Cuban Takeover! Better get yourself some gardening gloves for the inevitable hard labor in those Cuban tobacco fields!

Can you say "Over Reactionary Alarmist Pap"? Dude - Honestly!

The US is simply mending fences with its neighbors and it's long over-due!

IRM

[edit on 9/4/09 by InfaRedMan]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


OMG! A Cuban Takeover! Better get yourself some gardening gloves for the inevitable hard labor in those Cuban tobacco fields!

Can you say "Over Reactionary Alarmist Pap"? Dude - Honestly!

[edit on 9/4/09 by InfaRedMan]

Thank you for making me laugh out loud IRM

I can always rely on you to slap sense into people.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I can't help but think when I read your fiddle-playing, heart-felt "traumas of Communism" speeches that you sound exactly like Senator McCarthy or a 1960's propaganda leaflet dropped on South Vietnam.

Cuban expatriats can, and do still go visit their families.

I'm heart-broken already. I bet the "bastards" don't even give you the option of first class?

because I gave everything I had on me, including my watch, and my extra clothes to my cousins and family members who don't have such luxuries.

You do realise you could say that of about 70 other countries below Cuba on the Human Development Index?
And yet you're singling out Cuba here as the world's worst human rights offender..

40% of the world doesn't have clean drinking water, which suddenly makes watches and clothing seem like a god-given treat.

The administration wants to lift the sanctions off a dictatorship that has oppressed Cubans for over 50 years,

Correction: Lifting sanctions off a Communist government who they relentlessly undermined for 50 years.

Including and not limited to: Assassination attempts, several invasion attempts (proposed & actual), CIA covert sabotage of Cuban Industry, Crops, Media, and a host of other legitimate entities and illegal blockading of Cuban waters.

I think it's time to give Cuba the benefit of the doubt here...

They weren't the ones trying to poison American president's cigars for 40 years or send him plague-carrying locusts or get the Mafia to try and kill them.

The system is already in place and only a minority are living in luxury because they are part of the system,

You mean like all those upper-class, European-Cubans who exploited the working masses during Batista's regime and then fled to Miami to sit on their fat capitalist asses and hurl abuse at Castro from a safe distance and broadcast propaganda via "Radio Marti" into Havana?
Something they never even thought of doing under Batista's brutal regime because they got filthy rich from it.

The People don't have guns, or other firearms, except for the rifle every neighborhood

Thankfully America hasn't tried to stage another "Bay of Pigs" in a while, so I don't see the need for them to have access to rifles in the first place.

Yeah, he cleaned up, alongside with Che Guevara any hopes for people to rise against the dictatorship, and installed a system that is oppressing the people to this day.

Here we go.... derailing the thread into an all-out Communist bashing free for all where you let your own prejudices and melodramatic nonsense fly.

Just relate every Communist you can dig up to Cuba why don't you?

[edit on 9/4/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

because I gave everything I had on me, including my watch, and my extra clothes to my cousins and family members who don't have such luxuries.

You do realise you could say that of about 70 other countries below Cuba on the Human Development Index?
And yet you're singling out Cuba here as the world's worst human rights offender..

40% of the world doesn't have clean drinking water, which suddenly makes watches and clothing seem like a god-given treat.

I will say that commodities like clothing are expensive there. Paper as well. We brought school supplies along, but ultimately packages of paper would have been more useful. Because of the embargo, much has to be imported from abroad. And let's not forget that foreign firms that are subsidieries of US companies are not allowed to do business there.

You can't compare day to day life in Cuba with the United States...in terms of standard of living, economy, and so forth. Amazingly, in some cases Cuba rates better. It is more apt to compare Cuba with the Dominican Republic...no guaranteed food rations, education or health care. More machine guns than you see in Cuba...on the beaches too.

I can provide stories similar to those of Electric Universe from the aboriginal communities of Canada. They are universal. But in Cuba...so is health care and education.