So you want a rebellion? You can't.. The constitution says so.

That is a very interesting take on things and I will be sure to investigate further the documents that you have put forth. I would not be surprised to find that there are people involved in the making of treaties that had intentions not for the people but for their own personal or organizational agendas.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
That is a very interesting take on things and I will be sure to investigate further the documents that you have put forth. I would not be surprised to find that there are people involved in the making of treaties that had intentions not for the people but for their own personal or organizational agendas.

The long and short of it, is it's all about the law. The real law, not our constitutional perversion of it. I say perversion because obviously the constitution isn't being followed and rarely has been.

Real law is Roman Law, Ship's Law, Captain's Law, Maritime Law, the Laws of War...Contract Law.

Who knows the fore fathers might have had the best of intentions until they realized that despite all their bravado that their new nation owed quite a bit of money and property to people under contracts. Valid contracts and not just those held by the English, but by the Spanish, the Netherlands, the French and Germans, all members of the Holy Roman Empire all deciding just what could be done in regards to making the colonies a legal entity within the existing law that would abide by their existing contracts and future ones.

It is clear when you read the Treaty of Paris it was the King of England dictating the terms to the United States of America, in fact at the time there was no United States of America, just a confederation of states under the articles of confederation.

When you look at the treaty you are going to see the Kings first title isn't King of England, but prince of the Holy Roman Empire, you are going to see is last title is Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire, and Prince Elector of the United States of America...simply put he used his power to elect both Emporers, Officers as States of the Holy Roman which is what a Prince Elector was in the Holy Roman Empire, to elect to make the United States of America a part of the Holy Roman Empire and dictate to it what lands it could have and what it's contractual obligations were.

The King of England in his capacity of King of England the original owner of said lands under the Holy Roman Empire pledged to give up his rights to it as the King of England and his heirs rights to it as the King of England but when you read it carefully it doesn't say anything about him giving up his or his heirs rights as Prince Elector of the United States in the Holy Roman Empire.

In other words the King of England says you are free from me, you aren't free of Rome or the Roman Empire as you only exist because you have legally been made a part of it's system of Contractual Law that Charlemagne the First Holy Roman Emporer and King of the Franks began setting up in the late 800's and the Templars set up in London under the York Rites, Templar Law based on Roman Republic, Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire Law.

Simply put the Constitution is not a binding contract between the Government of the United States and it's citizens. The Treaty of Paris and the Treaty of Ghent are binding contracts though tying the entity known as the United States of America to the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Empire.

It is that international contractual law that trumps all other laws, because it is only through the constant honoring of those contracts that international commerce can be acheived and perpetuated.

The truth is, even if there was a second revolution the rest of the world would not absolve us of our sovereign debts, everyone around the globe would still have to be paid and their contracts honored or everyone around the globe would be lining up to fight and destroy us.

It's far more complicated than it looks on the surface. Things are seldom ever what they appear to be on the surface.

There is still one sovereign independent principality of Rome that has never ceased being part of the Roman Empire. If you research the documents you will find out who it is. Likewise the Holy Sea also exists.

The Vatican City is a City State not part of any Nation. London is a City State not part of any Nation. Washington D.C. is a City State not part of any Nation.

The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. The trinity.

The 13 that pops up every where in our symbolism. Is Ceasar's 13th Legion. The United States of America is the 13th Legion of the Roman Empire. It's why we weigh in as the deciding factor of every war.

That one tiny little principal sovereign nation of the Roman Empire by treaty from the 8th Century has the right to maintain an Island Nation for it's defense. For the Roman Empires Defense. The Treaty of Ghent was signed by the United States by the eight members of our delegation all titled in Latin as that Nations ruling coalition set up in the 800's.

The Dollar Bill and it's pyramid has the inscription in Latin around it. Caesars tongue, that says simply "We are succesfull in our Endeavor - New World Order"

People do tend to forget that Rome conquered Egypt long ago.

The New World Order is the millenium age old conquest of the World by Rome.

We were set up to accept the rest of the Empires tired, poor, hungry, rebellious and freedom seeking souls, to place them in Uniform and march out to Rome's glory when the order is given.

Read the New York Times archives in 1914, 1915, and through the first three quarters of 1916 regarding World War 1. Then read the Balfour Declaration. Then read how when the order came the press and public oppinion was changed over night, when it came time to perform our contractual duty.

An order that came out of the City State of London, to the City State of Washington D.C. to affect a new conquest by proclomation as specified in the Balfour Declaration.

There is an old French saying, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

It is not Christ's Ghost but Ceasars Ghost that runs the show and sets the agenda.

The New World Order

Rome and it's inventions ruling the world.

On this site you encounter a lot of self deluded individuals who cannot come to terms with the fact that the difference between the good and evil is nearly imperceptible to the human eye and that their own lives have not been put to any test which should convince them of their own goodness.

When I say what I say about the political process no longer being under the influence of subversive elements, the only proof I can, or need to, provide is the fact that I am father to my own son and sleep with my wife at night. For any change to occur in the world discussed in newspapers and on television, the change must first occur in our homes.

If the process was still under the control of the criminals as some suggest, then the reality that unfolds before me every day would be impossible. A major aspect of subverting the political process apparently involves first subverting authority within the American household.

Suge Knight, defunct rap mogul, once revealed his philosophy, “You must own your masters.” Before this group picked presidents and judges, they became the husband/wife to your spouse and mother/father to your children.

If you are telling me that some other people control your government, or the political process, then you are also without a doubt saying very unflattering things about your mother, wife, sister and daughters. I leave you with this to chew on…it gets deeper.


[edit on 8-4-2009 by huckfinn]

reply to post by LeaderOfProgress


Since I am new....and joined specifically because of this thread....I would like to point out something that I am sure the fanatics who do not believe in "natural rights" will try to shout down.

THE CONSTITUTION GRANTS YOU NO RIGHTS.

The Constitution limits the authority of the government to act on enumerated authority vested unto the entity (the fed.gov) by the states and / or the people.

Let us discuss enumerated powers. What is listed under Article I, Section 8 are the enumerated powers of the federal government, unless changed by a proceeding amendment.

ALL OTHER POWERS are vested unto the individual states and /or the people depending on the individual Constitutions of the individual states WITH EXEPTION of the Bill of Rights which are imposed upon the individual states via the XIVth amendment.

What that means is that no individual state may pass legislation contrary to the BoR. The XIVth amendment was specifically written and estableshed to prevent southern states from disarming (i.e. the 2nd amendment) newly freed slaves.

+++++++++++

Now....I doubt that you will have a "scholarly" discussion on "constitutionalism" in this format. However, if you are truly interested in constitutionalism, feel free to contact me directly for a more suitable location for a discussion.

Also...there is a difference between militia and a "standing army" which our founders both loathed and feared. That, however, is a different subject.

reply to post by LeaderOfProgress


Well, to use the words of our esteemed President Bush.... It's just a piece of paper.

reply to post by ThichHeaded


I agree with your interjection. Especially considering the fact that the USA PATRIOT ACT has suspended the US Constitution, and anyone in a "Constitution Free Zone" hasn't any rights at all (100 miles of all borders, land or sea) The silliness of such a moot statement.

Any "Peoples" on this globe has he right to throw off Tyranny. Our very lives are at stake.

You do not ask for permission to have Freedom... You TAKE it!

reply to post by huckfinn


This post makes no sense to the topic at hand. My question for you is why do you so wholey know and think that the government is good and wholesome? You are coming in here acting as an agent of the governmet constantly defending its actions which most people in the USA find to be adverse to their better judgement. A majority of the citizens DID NOT want the bail outs to occur. There were alot of experts that stated it for what it was, a bad move on the part of the government. Even in some of the bailouts that were given out, congress denied but yet our, what I would call the FOURTH branch of government the Federal Reserve, chose to go ahead with the bailouts usurping both the citizenry and the people though corrupt that they have elected into office to make such decisions. For sheer enlightenment how about you study the path and flow of money through the USA economy and its people. You will find that almost every amount of money spent and not saved goes back to the banking system for profit. I can prove it so, can you prove it false?

The facts listed in themselves stated in the above paragraph, prove a shadow government that controls the other branches. The fact that the people as a whole feel helpless is part of why the system is broken. Not one person that I talk to feels that they have the power to enact change. The key problem is that the people for the longest time have only been spoon fed what the government wants them to know. People are being taught to trust the government when distrust is what was originaly intended. The education system in itself is teaching mob mentality, and promoting a need for less individual thinking and more do as your told or else mentality.

I do agree that part of the problems that plague the USA are derived from a lack of proper social upbringing in the home. The defense for this is that the same people that are the cause of our nations downward spiral, are the same ones that are promoting the wanton spending and demoralization of the family unit. It is more profitable for people to be trendy and drink water from a bottle than it is to promote frugal lifestyles. It is more profitable for companies to maintain the brainwashed entertainment lifestyle that keeps people in a drone state of work, watch tv, buy the latest thing, procreate and then die, than it is to actually teach people how to live life for the short time they have. The demoralization of the family unit is primarily caused by the entertainment and advertising industry and its targeting of the teen group of society. In truth though, without the big corporations funding them they would have no clout.

It is not only the corporate profiteering that has led to such demorilization and destruction of the family unit, but the govenment as well. The government has stricken such a fear into parents that parents as a whole feel unable to properly raise their own children without fear of government insurgencies into their affairs. It takes so little proof to start a case against a family for neglect. As it stands now there are laws that state that you have to have electricity in order to have children. The forefathers had no electricity. It is currently law that children have separate beds and that after a certain age children are not allowed to live in a coed room. Family units in the time of our forefathers shared beds. In a majority of the households the family share one room together even one bed. These are just a couple of the many instances where the govenment has overstepped its bounds, causing more destruction than good. By the way it is way more profitable for a company if you have to buy bigger houses, use more electricity, buy more beds, buy buy buy, in order to be adequate with what the law states is essential for a family unit.

What is truly interesting is that the big corporations are the main creator or instigators of laws, that for the most part are being created to further their profiteering agendas. There have been so many laws passed on false evidence so as to create a new service or industry that specializes in the now "by law" required service or product, that it has become a land of the corporation not of the people. Think digital television requirement.

You are now blaming the people for being persuaded by false news and false research that for the most part uses pshycology to further their manipulation of the people. Through the use of manipulation and pshycological propaganda, companies and politicians have been for years brainwashing the citizenry into thinking that they are and always will do the best job in representing and furthering the peoples advancement in society. The best example is the current administrations promise of change. Show one thing that has changed from the past administrations through the last century, by the current administration that will further the people in progress through out their life. The current administration has broken many promises and will continue to break even more. People have been taught not to think but to accept what is pushed upon them, therefore you cannot blame a populace for what has always been.

Your posts give no substance to your stance other than what seems like the same circular logic that the govenment uses to explain itself to us lesser people. I am an extremely patient person but can only for so long tolerate circular logic with no change in evidence without finally pointing it out. You see for every post that you have posted I have carefully responded to each part with every time new evidence to support my claims, yet you provide no evidence. You are well spoken but yet you speak as if you are talking down from a position higher than ours. Alas unless you provide some information as to your background or current status within the government I will follow each post you make in this thread with a post calling you out as an "agent" of the government.

There is definitely a problem. We are agreed. Where we disagree is how to address it.

My personal opinion is that the people or groups that are responsible for the theft, murder and oppression of not only Americans, but also of other nations and the people or groups that know of all of the failings of political systems and their inadequacies, have knowledge of how to improve them and that are urgently calling for some drastic change in political systems are the SAME.

I personally believe that the people who have not committed atrocities against their neighbors and are not very knowledgeable concerning the oppressive systems run by criminals are the SAME.

I suggest people should not focus on the government because the government is not the source of the crimes. Attacking it is misdirection, which leads to prison and/or death. It is certain people living all around us that are the source of these crimes. They are trying to pretend that they are in the same boat as us with a common problem. But they are not, their boat is sinking and the only way for them to be saved is for us to destroy our world.

The idea that the political process and government is no longer under the subversive influence and is changing, slowly but surely, bothers you. That would mean that the people who you, according to my theory, share beliefs with are not in the same position they once were.

They are losing this war, have little chance of changing its direction, but are still sending their operatives to certain destruction. From what I can see they are losing positions they once had and not just at the federal level, but in cities and counties and states and sooner than later they will be standing in plain view naked as the day they were born.

Proof? Your proof is happening right before your eyes pick whatever proof you want...the criminals who we both say exist are losing the war...yes, they are at war...no, it will never end for them. The people will be just fine.

No, I don't work for the government, but I am a citizen and enjoy, the best I can, the benefits of that citizenship. I'm certainly not gonna replace what I have for what you are offering. Right now all you are offering is 8 more years of war against an ill defined enemy, isn't that how long the last American revolution lasted? A major difference between the Declaration of Independence and your list of grievances is that the Declaration was address to the King of England. To whom will you send your list of grivances?

As far as all the money you discussed, I don't know what to think of it...I hear that they are stealing our money...I hear that our money is worthless and near collapse and should be used as toilet paper...I hear that America doesn't make anything anymore because all of the industry has been outsourced...Am I to believe that they are stealing lots of worthless money that they can't use to purchase anything anyway? Am I to believe they don't know this....which is it? what exactly should I be concerned of?

What I really hear is the ramblings of confused people who are running out of both time and options.

[edit on 9-4-2009 by huckfinn]

You still state that the government is not corrupt. Even the current administration was put into power by the same criminals monies that have paid for countless laws that have degraded the american puplic's concept of money, debt, and proper consumerism. It is simple, it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the current system of government allows and even promotes the fleecing of taxpayers for the coffers of the elite. This act is criminal but yet it goes without criminal prosecution. The laws turns a blind eye to the crimes of the government and the elite. Look at the hearings pertaining to the bankrupcy act passed in 2005. You will be shocked to see how much blatant flaunting of campaign funds occured prior to their acctual testimony befor congress. When you watch the videos you will see congress shuttling through the peoples complains, but yet when the time came to cross examine the credit card and banking industry suddenly congress did not have time to question them. The government officials for the most part are bought and paid for.

You keep stating change has occured, which leads me to believe that you follow the almost cult ideas that Obama is the best thing to politics ever. Well he is not. He is just one more person bought and paid for by the financial institutions, and like wise has proven it with his pork barrel spending for their so called need. Yet when the people need the government all they get is hassle. Truely disabled people will fight for years to recieve Social Securtity, and in the end will have to hire a lawyer to obtain benifits. All a bank has to do is say pay me or else I will collapse leaving the public to fend for itself. You see all of the legistlators that were in the pocket of the Auto industry cried out loud that the industry will fail in just a month if not bailed out, we bailed them out, they asked for more claiming imminate failure, we denied it, yet they haven't failed. The bail out scenario is a Ponzi scheme at best which is being used to make rich people richer.

Once again I ask you to prove that the government is getting better instead of listening to mind numbing speeches that tell you it is. I ask you to for once to do your own research instead of being spoon fed what the government wants you to know. You see you are one person out of thousands that I have talked to from all walks of life, from all tiers of society, and from all races, that states the government is great and is improving. ONE person. Faced with those numbers how do you whom can offer no proof in your statements, remain so self righteous in your views. I will tell you that your view are that of a fanatic not of those that are based off of facts and truths that you are faced with on a daily basis. Where is your proof that it is getting better. Show me one piece of legistlation that has limited the powers of corporations. You will find none but you will find plenty that have aided corporations in power grabbing and fleecing rights of the citizenry. Instead of just generally stating there is improvement how about you show concrete evidence that the corruption is being removed.

The concrete proof is this...the person who is/was behind all the corruption you speak of is Reza Pahlavi (wannabe god of the whole world)...and he has been stripped of nearly all of his power and influence; what remains of his world rests upon the shoulders of one 17 years old boy. His whole world, what was and what he hoped to be, is crumbling in full view for all to see.

He doesn't have this power anymore, because someone took it from him. He sued for peace. Look at the Cook County Clerk of the Circuit Court case docket from 2006. He was represented by Nirav and Harshad Shah; he received a small settlement.

He tried to engage his enemy again later in the same year and lost Saddam. He sued again, same court docket, he was represented by a big fat whore named Dorie Williams and Sanford Kahn; again he received a small settlement.

One of his intelligence operatives, a 17 years old boy of Cambodian descent is the only thing that keeps him covered. Its about a wrap for that as well. So you see, that for the criminals you speak of, there is little to no hope whatsoever.



[edit on 9-4-2009 by huckfinn]

Originally posted by huckfinn
The concrete proof is this...the person who is/was behind all the corruption you speak of is Reza Pahlavi (wannabe god of the whole world)...and he has been stripped of nearly all of his power and influence; what remains of his world rests upon the shoulders of one 17 years old boy. His whole world, what was and what he hoped to be, is crumbling in full view for all to see.

He doesn't have this power anymore, because someone took it from him. He sued for peace. Look at the Cook County Clerk of the Circuit Court case docket from 2006. He was represented by Nirav and Harshad Shah; he received a small settlement.

He tried to engage his enemy again later in the same year and lost Saddam. He sued again, same court docket, he was represented by a big fat whore named Dorie Williams and Sanford Kahn; again he received a small settlement.

One of his intelligence operatives, a 17 years old boy of Cambodian descent is the only thing that keeps him covered. Its about a wrap for that as well. So you see, that for the criminals you speak of, there is little to no hope whatsoever.



[edit on 9-4-2009 by huckfinn]

Huck buddy, talking about owning your Masters and owning them are two different things. There is a lot of great music from the 60's on that helps to raise people's awareness but that isn't the same thing as being in a position of real power.

I can appreciate based on what you have shared in these forums regarding your personal history why you are fixated on the Shah's descendants, but I would have to suggest to you my friend that you can't see the forest for the trees.

If you truly think the Shah of Iran as the legacy of the Persian Dynasties was ever controlling the modern world I would say you have built a formidble sized mole hill into an over exagerated mountain. Was the Shah and the Savak a force to be reckoned with in the world? Yes, and the fading remnants still are somewhat. Do they have an overall bearing on the scope of the bigger picture? Not at all, they are bit players.

I truly hope you win your crusade but after it's over, hopefully you will step on up to the big leagues and be able to focus on the ellements and people who are truly shaping the world in ways the world could do without.

Good luck to you.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Very true to the point. Though I don't doubt there are key players in the world affairs, I doubt just one calls the shots. The problem like you said is it is a mountain. This mountain is built by the greed of several individuals and groups who's sole goal is monetary greed, and the persuit of power. These peoples see no apex to their goal, therefore making it a never ending pursuit. When I speak of the people that are in power I am talking of our government at every tier from the lowley mayor of a town to the President and the corporations and banking industrials that lobby them. These people need to be held accountable for their actions. Even if there was one person pulling the strings the key arguement remains that the majority of people elected to help our country have choosen a side shall we could best call the dark side. This is the side of corruption and greed. The daunting task that is before us is to elimate such problems and put in place people that are here for the people.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Very true to the point. Though I don't doubt there are key players in the world affairs, I doubt just one calls the shots. The problem like you said is it is a mountain. This mountain is built by the greed of several individuals and groups who's sole goal is monetary greed, and the persuit of power. These peoples see no apex to their goal, therefore making it a never ending pursuit. When I speak of the people that are in power I am talking of our government at every tier from the lowley mayor of a town to the President and the corporations and banking industrials that lobby them. These people need to be held accountable for their actions. Even if there was one person pulling the strings the key arguement remains that the majority of people elected to help our country have choosen a side shall we could best call the dark side. This is the side of corruption and greed. The daunting task that is before us is to elimate such problems and put in place people that are here for the people.

It is important to understand my friend that there truly are two sides to every coin including this one.

Let's take the last election as a perfect example. There was a record turnout that was really great. Yet a good many of the people turning out were turning out for the first time. Worse still many of the people who voted did so based on star appeal, looks and congeniality. Shamefully some of the people who voted, voted entirely along racial lines.

The point, an under educated, under informed, and misunderstanding voter is a liability.

I didn't vote in the past election but I took the time to read all of Obama's and McCain's legislative attempts.

How many people who voted for Obama do you imagine read his 124 failed attempts to write a workable and passable bill in the Senate?

How many people who voted based on improving the economy do you imagine took a crash course in economics 101 to ascertain a cantidates credentials on the issue?

How many people who voted based on foriegn affairs and security concerns do you think took a crash course on Middle East History and religions?

How many people who voted based on a cantidates spirituality truly understand that State and Church are seperate and no religious test should be given to hold office?

Those are of course just a few of the major issues, but the point is, that when people vote they are in theory exercising a tremendous amount of power. The power to hand someone the power to launch a nuclear strike, write billion dollar checks, and enact legislation that could be totally disastorous.

Most Americans simply vote along a party line, foreign policy line, economic line, racial line, or religious line without ever taking the time to grasp the fundamentals of what their politicians would need to know and be able to do in order to fulfill their desires in regards to those things.

The typical Power that Be who weighs in on an election to tilt the result to the cantidate of their choice looks at it like this...

Does a soccer mom from Indianapolis really know what it takes to supply and distribute food, clothing, entertainment, transportation, fuel, water, electricity, and shelter to 600 million people. Does she understand where these different commodities come from in the world, and the process required to get them from there to here and the political, economic, and logistical gauntlets that have to be run in the process?

Of course the answer is tragically and basically no.

In part it's why they do rig the vote on every level from the School Board, to the Town Council, to the County Seat, to the State to the Federal Level because the people who are really conducting the business of keeping all the things in business that keep the nation in business can't afford in their oppinions to be sadled with an idiot, just because he looks good, or wears his suits well, or attends the right church or has the right skin color.

Americans are tragically under informed and under educated. You can blame a certain portion on the media, a certain portion of it on the schools.

Yet you have to ask yourself, why did I take the time to read every piece of legislation failed or otherwise the candidates ever wrote?

It took dozens of hours to do that.

Why did I take the time to study the banking system, economic infrastructure, how the markets work, and trace the roots of trends and bubbles?

Why did I take the time to study what's going on in China, the Soviet Union, the European Union, the Middle East, the Islamic world and Israel?

No one told me too, but no one stopped me from doing it either.

If I was going to vote and either Ron Paul or believe it or not Mike Huckabee had run (I really liked his flat tax at the cash register and do away with the IRS and payroll taxes and income returns for citizens.) I might have gone out and voted for either one of them.

Simply put by the time most people make it to the polls to vote for the wrong reasons, the candidates they are choosing from have only gotten to that stage because the corporate moguls have aided them and made it possible for equally wrong reasons.

Americans in my humble oppinion no longer seem to get that living in a democracy is not just a privelage, it's a responsibility.

Half of what's wrong with the nation right now is from irresponsible citizens, who shop at the wrong stores, borrow money through Credit Cards or Home Equity Loans when they really should be demanding a raise from their employer or finding a better job or educating themselves for a better job, and purchasing things they simply can not really afford and often do not really need.

It's kind of funny when you get right down to it, that a person who can't balance a checkbook, make a budget based on their actual economic ability to stay within it and still save money, and will spend 75% of what they do spend on products that send the bulk of that money overseas are making a choice as to which cantidate can rescue the economy, when in reality they need someone to rescue themselves from themselves.

In a representative democracy the people are actually at the top not the President. When the people are confused, ignorant, stubborn, and busily engaged daydreaming by choice...?

What kind of government do you think they are really going to end up with?

Pretty much the kidn of government we have.

At some point people do need to realize and understand government is not going to change, until the people who elect it do.

Just my humble oppinion.

Thanks

That is a very good opinion on things that stays right in line with alot of truths that are so obvious to those who actually care about our nations future. The statement that the government will not change until the people want it to is spot on. Now what I would like to happen, and will spend so much of my time doing is informing and educating ALL of the people I can as to the true state of affairs. You are very correct that the american populace is very under educated. The problem is that now colleges are geared towards teaching how to use the corrupt system instead of teaching everyone how to fix it. Recent history proves that when a proffesor begins to speak of how to fix the system they are quickly chastized and let go. From what I can tell the most of us in this thread are in agreement as to the problem that exists. Now how do you all feel the proper course of action is?

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
That is a very good opinion on things that stays right in line with alot of truths that are so obvious to those who actually care about our nations future. The statement that the government will not change until the people want it to is spot on. Now what I would like to happen, and will spend so much of my time doing is informing and educating ALL of the people I can as to the true state of affairs. You are very correct that the american populace is very under educated. The problem is that now colleges are geared towards teaching how to use the corrupt system instead of teaching everyone how to fix it. Recent history proves that when a proffesor begins to speak of how to fix the system they are quickly chastized and let go. From what I can tell the most of us in this thread are in agreement as to the problem that exists. Now how do you all feel the proper course of action is?

Honestly it's a heck of a problem. What makes it incredibly problematic is for all intents and purposes we already are living in a one world government that is interconnected through a complex codependent series of debt instrument currencies and vital trade.

You could march on Washington D.C. over throw the government but then what? We have no money as we are heavily indebt to several nations some of them with significant military power. Unless we could get the Russians or Canada to buy Alaska or Japan Hawaii, or Mexico California we have nothing really exportable to raise currency and the reality is, that every other nation's currency is as worthless as ours because they are all tied into the same interconnected banking system, that frankly is not going to want to help us since the Masters we threw off our them.

We are short on natural resources too and our infrastructure would quickly grind to a halt without petroleum imports we would basically have nothing to buy with.

To restore this nation sucessfully we would most likely have to restore every other nation at the same time. In other words, England, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, China the core of the G-7 would all have to overthrow their governments and all be willing to simply freeze debts to one another long term.

The monetary system is so interlinked that's the only real way it could be done, by having all 7 of the principal nations that make up the monetary system do away with their governments and the system along with it.

As I posted earlier in the thread I do not believe we ever gained independent nation status during the revolutionary war or anytime afterwards.

I think it was because of similiar reasons. That's nice Ben Franklin, how are you going to pay France, the Netherlands, Germany and Spain the money you owe them? How are you going to compensate them for their loss of property? How are you going to be able to do business with us in the future, when basically you have stollen from us all and can't be trusted to pay us? Yes maybe you have beaten the English Army and some mercanary Hessians to date, but if we can't reach a satisfactory agreement on how creditors are going to be paid and people loosing property and revnues from that property are going to be compensated then it's just a matter of time until Spain, the Netherlands, England, France and Germany put together a combined force to reclaim contractually what is ours. Do you think you can beat us all?

I am pretty sure that was the scenario over 200 years ago that led to secret committees of Congress signing secret portions of the treaties that were kept from the general public as well as many of the other people in government then, just as likely as things are going on now at an alarming rate that are being kept from the majority of the public and all the people.

There is an old saying, out of the frying pan into the fire. I don't think it is going to do much good in the long run just concentrating on the fying pan (the United States) when it is really the fire (G-7) that is going to really burn you.

Just my take on it, I know it's not much help, but I don't see a way out for us, without finding a way out for everybody else across the world trapped in the same system we desperately want to escape.

Thanks my friend.

That is a very interesting take on things with very valid points. The process of returning the government is not going to happen overnight. I will respond later with a little different take on the how to from my point of view. I just have a couple of things to do right now.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Sorry I've been remiss in posting... your post and the documents you brought to light in this thread were mind tingling! Thanks for the additions.

In essence, you're stating that even if We, the People regained our republic... We'd be in debt to foreign powers that potentially could come to collect by force? I'm merely trying to understand more clearly.

Is it essential to even have the support of other nations, or simply a lack of intervention in a potential revolution? If so, I would first be concerned with Canada and Mexico, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by cbianchi513
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Sorry I've been remiss in posting... your post and the documents you brought to light in this thread were mind tingling! Thanks for the additions.

In essence, you're stating that even if We, the People regained our republic... We'd be in debt to foreign powers that potentially could come to collect by force? I'm merely trying to understand more clearly.

Is it essential to even have the support of other nations, or simply a lack of intervention in a potential revolution? If so, I would first be concerned with Canada and Mexico, for obvious reasons.

Hi my friend,

Yes that's basically my take on it, that if we just tried to cease being the entity that we currently are bound by countless contracts and financial obligations and debts to other nations that they would not simply forgive us those debts, or likely forgive us for tipping over the proverbial apple cart.

Nuclear armed China for instance has 12 plus trillion dollars tied up in U.S. Treasuries and loans and those are the public government to government investments and loans. Imagine for a second what our private banks might have outstanding in the way of foreign obligations and debt and when you do it becomes a lot easier to understand in part where all the billions and billions are going in the bailout money. The banks are trying to manage their own contractual debt to oversees creditors.

It's likely we have very little gold in Fort Knox and the richest people in the United States are more or less the ones we would be overthrowing in a restructuring take over of the government, so obviously they aren't going to be too much help.

Right now we can print flat fiat paper currency which is really just an I.O.U. type instrument of debt all day long, because we are tied in with every other nation that does the same, but that process internationally is in part controlled by the people we would be displacing in a government restructuring so once again you couldn't count on those foreign branches of what is essentially the same corporation seeing any value in some none secured debt instrutment currency similiar to our dollar. If we were to continue to participate in that same manipulated system, well obviously we would be instantly corrupted in the process.

All nations basically have to have a system of commerce that they honor. Even in times of war the Laws of the Sea are very specific as to what nations at war with one another can and can not do.

It's why every nation in the world, even ones that normally don't get along well responded enmass to pirating off the coast of Somolia. In essence every nation values the collective treaties, contracts, and accords that gaurantee safe passage around the world, and repayment of debts to creditors around the world, regardless of idealogy, politics, or other tensions.

Bottom line, everyone just wants to get paid, or be in the process of being paid.

When creditor nations realize that they are not going to get paid because there is no real way to pay them, then they are going to want to stake some kind of claim in real property.

No one will want to do business with us if we aren't solvent, and no one will want to do business with us if they know from time to time we will just skip out on our debts wholesale.

I really believe if we staged a second revolution and were broke at the end of the day our foreign creditors through the United Nations would come marching in enmass to take us over and restructure the country in a way that they were certain they would have their debts paid and properties gauranteed constantly moving forward.

I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Nations are going to fight for what we owe them. What they really are going to be fighting for above all is that we maintain our place our cog in the machine that runs them all.

What do you think my friend?

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
That is a very interesting take on things with very valid points. The process of returning the government is not going to happen overnight. I will respond later with a little different take on the how to from my point of view. I just have a couple of things to do right now.

I sure do appreciate your perceptions and take on it. You know what they say two heads are better than one and three heads are better than two.

We are either going to have to more or less go along with what's happening in the world, or each make our own individual last stands or at some point really start putting our heads together.

The Staff has applauded and complimented you for all the great thought and effort you are putting into this thread by the way.

You are touching on an incredibly important subject my friend. Thanks for sharing.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I appreciate greatly the staff's acknowledgment of EVERYONE who has with decorum and deep thought, contributed to this thread. Like you stated above the more who partake in the discussions of how to fix our nation the better the end result will be. When we begin to stop taking the input of everyone that this situation affects, we become no better than the system that we are trying to fix. Now, back to buisness.

The financial debt obligations that you have brought up, in my mind, now are the greatest hurdles we have to overcome. You see in my point of view what I see to be the true battle is not one against the Republic form of Government, but a battle against the Corporate greed and corruption that has infiltrated our government. Keeping in mind that the battle is mostly against the Corporate Elite, we are forced to reckon with the fact that the corporations are INTERNATIONAL. So in reality we will be fighting an uphill battle that doesn't know the boundaries of the United States.

Now, with that in mind the only approach I can see fit is one that is not implemented from the top tiers down but from the bottom tiers up. Under this approach the restructuring will be a long drawn out process. If we start at a local level like city government, implementing a series of laws formed to eliminate and check for corruption, we can begin what would best be described as a silent revolution.

What I see to be one of the best routes of elimating corruption at a city level would be to do the unthinkable, government take over of utilities. I am far from a socialist but I do think that what we consider to be essential to life should be ran buy the government. I know this seems to be contrary to what I post at times, but when you think about it, the idea begins to make sense. Everyone needs water and electricity. These are the only two things that I can justify socializing. A bulk majority of the corruption at a city level involves the utilities. This would be the start of uprooting the corporate ivy that is breaking down the foundation of our country.

This idea would kill two birds with one stone so to speak. By socializing the utilities you will have eliminated the need for profiteering based off of the basic needs of people, and in the same stroke you can eliminate the civilian need for natural gas. I will ruffle a few feathers by saying that there is no reason for civilian use of natural gas, and when you truely look at ways of eliminating its use you can find through science several alternatives that are more cost effective. The question everyone should be asking is, why heat with a fossil fuel when we can use electicity now? The answer would be, so that a corporation can profit more off of our needs.

This would only be a start but would cause sweeping changes that would dramatically change the face of politics at the lowest level. Utility kickbacks have been lining the pocket of those who make city level descisions for way too long. The next attack would have to be on building and zoning permits and city bond issuance.

Every permit that relates to changing the face of a city needs to be empowered to the people. When a company wants a new zone or needs a new permit, it should be scrutinized and voted on by the people of the city with plenty of time to do a proper investigation as to the impact of allowing said buisness to operate, and it history as a company. If the city wishes to issue bonds then the bonds need to be issued and regulated as strickt as a controlled substance, and voted on by the people as well. If a company makes promises to use the local economy for construction and development then they must be held to that promise or face both fines and criminal prosecution.

Another key issue would be the term limits of people in the city level government. I know it seems short but a two year term limit should be placed on all positions that are elected by the people for city government. You see it is alot harder to corrupt people if they don't have enough time to implement the changes that the corporate greed machine is asking for. Also by instating this, we will ensure that not one group controls the local government. With this term limit a person should only be allowed to be placed into office for a two year term once every ten years. This will also ensure fresh, young, and insightful minds have an opportunity to become involved in politics, and bring their new ideas into the political arena.

The election process for city level offices would for all practical purposes remain unchanged. One key change that I see as very important is public campaign finance. A figure of say 10,000 should be alotted from taypayer coffers, and given through a controlled means to each person campaining for a position. Of course the amount needed will greatly depend on demographics and population, but the general idea remains the same, no more special interest groups tilting elections.

I think that the administration positions such as secretary, meter reader, maintenance, and other positions that play no part in decision making should remain "career" type jobs requiring no rotation or term limit. A key position that must be rotated would be any accounting or book keeping position. It is essential that this position is well compensated and and term limited to four years. The reason for the longer term limit would be to ensure by review of a new administration that the books are not being cooked in any form or fashion. The higher pay rate is to help eliminate the urge to perform illegal tasks for compensation.

An elimitation of all pensions and retirement plans for all elected offices would be prudent as well. There will be no need to provide such benifits via taypayer monies for people who are not supposed to be in career positions. This restriction of benifits does not include medical insurance wich should be provided no matter what position they hold and no matter how short of a term they will be in place.

This is my general take on the best steps to get this ball rolling. What is everyones take on this? What might I be missing?