So you want a rebellion? You can't.. The constitution says so., page 1
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Topic started on 7-4-2009 @ 05:52 AM by LeaderOfProgress
Declaration of Independence

Constitution of The United States of America

I have been reading to excess both the Constitution and the Declaration of Indepencence. What I have found is quite interesting. The Declaration of Independence directly conflicts several of the laws that we are bound by in the Constitution.

From Declaration of Independence:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


From Constitution:

Article 1 Section 8 : To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.

Article 1 Section 9 : The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.


These areas of both documents discuss in some part rebellion or insurrection. The Declaration of Independence calls for rebellion or insurrection against the government if it becomes too destructive. The Constitution on the other hand, gives Congress the right to suppress insurrections or rebelions using the military. Under the Constitution, Congress is given the right to suspend Habeas Corpus in the event of a rebellion or inssurection.

An interesting note on the subject would be the issue of the Posse Comitatus Act, it is in no way shape or form a part of any of the founding documents written by our forefathers. It is a federal law and as such is open to interpretation, but according to the above laws stated in the Constitution, the Posse Comitatus Act is null and void. Congress can deploy troops on American soil in the event of rebellion or insurrections against the government. Likewise if you are part of the rebellion or insurrection, you can have your right of Habeas Corpus suspended indefinitely.

Some complaints listed in the Declaration of Indepence:

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:


These complaints listed above are ones that are currently being impossed on the People of the United States. Through some mistake somewhere in the creation of the documents that follow after the Declaration of Independence, the people were given not one way aside from election of officials, a way to correct a tyrannical or over powerfull government. My main concern is that election of public officials does not empower the people. The corruption runs deep enough that just elections alone will have no effect on the current form of government.

The appointment of cabinet members is not a part of the government layout given by the Constitution. In fact the creation and appointment of people to such offices that are newly created on a near daily basis, is part of the complaint list given by the writers of the Declaration of Independence. My feelings are that the use of cabinets and special offices create an usurping power of government, that under a magnifying glass, anylizes and restricts the rights of the people.

Use the links above and read both documents. I think that once you read them both, there will be a certain epiphany come about. The Constitution was written quite restrictive to the peoples rights to change the new government once it became established. More or less my feelings are that the forefathers, relying on good faith and their newly found brotherhood, neglected to put in a check and balance system that would usurp the government if it became all of what we attempted to get away from in the first place.

Everyone that wants to change the way our country is ran must become very educated in ALL of the documents that led to formation of our country. Only through knowledge will we be able to form a new and properly functioning form of government. We must use what works and take from history and experience what did not work for govering the populace, and form new laws to protect what was not protected right in the first place. The Constitution is like swiss cheese, so full of holes, leaving it open to so much interpretation, but also lacking regulation in government activities.

I think that as a whole we get confused about what laws and rights we are actually given or implied. Some times the ideas of the Declaration of Independence become twisted in our minds into the laws of the Constitution.

This time people lets do it right.

Personal note: This is gonna be one wicked fight....!!!

edited to make title better.

[edit on 7-4-2009 by LeaderOfProgress]


reply posted on 7-4-2009 @ 01:59 PM by DrMattMaddix
Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
Declaration of Independence

Constitution of The United States of America

I have been reading to excess both the Constitution and the Declaration of Indepencence. What I have found is quite interesting. The Declaration of Independence directly conflicts several of the laws that we are bound by in the Constitution.

From Declaration of Independence:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


From Constitution:

Article 1 Section 8 : To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.

Article 1 Section 9 : The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.


[edit on 7-4-2009 by LeaderOfProgress]


The documents are written at nice digestible reading level for all.

However you are taking things out of context. (I'm not about to turn the interpretation of these docs into a long debate like lawyers would).

The unalienable rights; LIFE LIBERTY HAPPINESS

Can't just kill someone (although in some cases would qualify right #3)
Can't imprison or enslave them.
Can't inhibit someones pursuit of happiness. Whatever that might legally be...

That's what your quote from the DoI is in reference to "altering" or "abolishing" a gov't that steps on those inalienable rights.

Whose right is it to perform ?? "it is the Right of the People".

They didn't describe in detail how that could play out. A mob of Weathermen obviously wasn't enough to radically change gov't.

Now that regular folks are waking up and seeing the depth of lying and corruption, a revolution might happen. In huge numbers.

If the military is called to assist in quelling a revolution, would they put their parents and siblings in jail or shoot at them? Our gov't has no other force to reckon with Americans armed to the teeth.

UN Troops? Pshhht. It'll be many years before that would become a threat. If ever.

So, in loose interpretation of the "conflicting" elements; size does matter.

Insurrections & Rebellion are small scale; where Revolution is a huge number of folks of the country. With the potential to win.

Hope that helps shed some light on it. Use dictionary to redefine what think a word means. You'd be surprised that what you thought it meant isn't really the case or at least misses the mark.

Edit to add: Excellent post and Thomas Jefferson advised to question gov't. I think that constitutes patriot behavior.


[edit on 4·7·09 by DrMattMaddix]


reply posted on 7-4-2009 @ 02:12 PM by cbianchi513
reply to post by DrMattMaddix


I concur, there is a distinct difference in scope between a revolution and an insurrection. Again, history teaches us that George III made this crucial error initially.

Realistically, what you are saying about US service personnel being forced in some cases to make a moral choice could happen in the near future. I'm still with you here.

What I am concerned with is this... I agree with you that more and more people are becoming aware, awake, whatever word you choose to use... People are realizing that what we are being told, what we see on the news, everything... lies. People really are aware of this... I see it everyday!

Problem is, in my area (and I suspect many others) people are generally complacent, or more than willing to just "sit back and watch". I find myself asking "Do I really want to potentially make a supreme sacrifice to preserve these people???" alot. We'll see if the moment presents itself.

The problem is... What will the spark that ignites the flame be? What if the people in New Jersey start their revolution, and the people of PA don't even know about it?

I'm pretty sure Goliath can handle one state, but never the entire populace.

There needs to be a nationwide signal, a modern day Paul Revere.

The redcoats are coming!


reply posted on 7-4-2009 @ 02:45 PM by cbianchi513
reply to post by LeaderOfProgress


The Constitution does trump all other documents in law.

The Declaration is a document listing grievance as well as demanding appropriate redress. It is directed towards the Crown, and does not guarantee anything, instead declares rights to be held "self evident". (Franklin's choice of words- trumping Jefferson!)

As to your closing paragraph, pertaining to patriots... I consider myself one presently, and only hope that my children and all decendants hold me in the same esteem.

History is, after all, written by the victors. If a revolution is really only a regional insurrection, and fails as a result... Will the history that public schools teach our children show these patriots in a positive light, or vilify them as extremists?

For example, what were you taught about John Brown? His cause and motivation were in my opinion based in a noble belief- that all men are created equal. I don't agree with his method, but his cause I can buy into.

I'm not sure about you, but I was always taught John Brown's insurrection at Harper's Ferry was a big catalyst in the war of northern agression...

The "cause" and "motivation" was not on the curriculum as I recall, and Brown is no hero in American history books...


Edit: The John Brown bit, as an afterthought.



[edit on 7/4/09 by cbianchi513]
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