Follow this bullet's journey through an armored vehicle

Originally posted by devilwasp
afriad not sonny the challanger is the best becuase it doesnt cost as much and is much faster

My car is much cheaper and much faster than the Abrams and the Challenger.

My car is the best tank in the world.

Man, I cant believe people like Delta Chaos, Just face the facts it was a Soviet RPG round that uses, just like I said a HE shaped charge to push a "sabot" through the armor. And no, a Sabot does not just have to launched in flight. There are many different types of Sabot rounds, For example their are two types currently deployed by US forces for the .50 cal. One is a high density depleated Uranium tip sabot that is used against light armor. And the other is a explosive. incendiary round that among contact launchs the "sabot/incendiary" round into the target "material" causing it to burst into flames.

And just like Psteel (?) said the secondary fragmentation holes is from the high velocity ejecta from the entry/ exit site(s) of the various structures it penetrated.

Originally posted by robertfenix
Man, I cant believe people like Delta Chaos, Just face the facts it was a Soviet RPG round that uses, just like I said a HE shaped charge to push a "sabot" through the armor...

Man, I hate it when people like robertfenix use words, assuming they know what they mean, when they really don't.

Merriam-Webster Online

2 : a thrust-transmitting carrier that positions a missile in a gun barrel or launching tube and that prevents the escape of gas ahead of the missile

MS Encarta

2. support for projectile in weapon: a sleeve placed around a projectile so that it can be fired from a weapon with a larger bore. The sabot drops away shortly after the projectile is fired.

Infoplease Dictionary

b. a soft metal ring at the base of a projectile that makes the projectile conform to the rifling grooves of a gun

Onelook Dictionary (Just to be annoyingly redundant...)

2. (n.) A thick, circular disk of wood, to which the cartridge bag and projectile are attached, in fixed ammunition for cannon; also, a piece of soft metal attached to a projectile to take the groove of the rifling.

RPG=NO BARREL; NO BARREL=NO SABOT

Sabot is NOT a round. Sabot is NOT incindiary. Sabot will NEVER pierce armor.

An RPG has not, does not, and will NEVER fire a sabot round. For the love of GOD, the round of and RPG never even sees the inside of the LAUNCH TUBE!

DC

Originally posted by DeltaChaos


RPG=NO BARREL; NO BARREL=NO SABOT

Sabot is NOT a round. Sabot is NOT incindiary. Sabot will NEVER pierce armor.

An RPG has not, does not, and will NEVER fire a sabot round. For the love of GOD, the round of and RPG never even sees the inside of the LAUNCH TUBE!

DC

Communication is not just the use of officially recognized words, but convying a point of view or infomation.

Reguardless of if you like it or not his description is accurate.

Shaped charge employs explosive to collapse a metalic or glass liner material to follow the axis of the direction that the explosive vents. THis forms into an exceptionally long rod [on the order of ~ 100:1 lenght to diameter]. It is also solid , however since it is under massive pressure it behaves like a liquid and flows.

Like wize when this massive pressure stretching rod strikes the armor it too acts like a fluid and flows.

Thus ballistic researchers study both APFSDS and shaped charge jets as long rods at velocity ranging from 1000-8000m/s. Similarly resistance to such penetration is studied in the same manner except , while the APFSDS has considerable strength, the jet does not [which is why its easy to deform in the first place].

Ergo his description, while novel is correct.

"robertfenix" A suggestion, replace the word "sabot" with "mechanically weak rod" in your description. Then he won't understand what you are say , but it will be more accurate.

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by psteel]

psteel. What are you talking about?

I thought we were talking about RPG rounds, and how sabot does not relate to that type of round. Sure, there are RPG HEAT rounds. Sure it could've been an RPG HEAT round that penetrated that armor.

But there was no sabot on that round. RPG rounds do not have sabot for any reason. There are no internal ballistics to an RPG round. Sabot is directly related to internal ballistics.

If RF replaced the word sabot with a word that made sense, I wouldn't have said anything - because it would've made sense.

DC

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by DeltaChaos]

The problem is , some people think sabot is a equivalent for armour piercing round. As already stated above it is not.

Originally posted by longbow
The problem is , some people think sabot is a equivalent for armour piercing round. As already stated above it is not.

Exactly, thank you.

Sabot has nothing to do with whether a round is AP, or HE, or DU, or incidiary, or whatever. I try to only make the point that an RPG round being a sabot round is an impossibility.

DC

Some sabot pictures:



sabot discarding

Nice find longbow. That actually looks like the M1A1 120mm smoothbore sabot.

I was thinking about finding a picture, but I thought I could explain better with words...

My bad,
DC

And also some heat rounds for you folks














[Edited on 26-4-2004 by longbow]

Yes but again you fail to communicate. To most people tankers and civis included the word sabot is not just the shoe but the whole rod projectile sabot combinded. Most experienced would understand what he meant and let it go . To make such an issue out of that is odd to say the least.

At the end of the day this penetration is most likely an advanced RPG-7 round , infact it might be as simple as a RPG-16 or 22. NO railgun or specialised riflefired APFSDS....OK?

www.defense-update.com...

About RPG types encountered in Iraq

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is a thread already on this subject of the RPG rounds and some advanced Soviet round currently seen in Iraq.

www.milparade.com...

This is a soviet arms listing

www.hemusbg.org...

PG-7VLT Round, check the penetration specs of this RPG Round

www.pmulcahy.com...

TBG-7VR as well as a complete listing of variants by country

www.pmulcahy.com...

PShG-1 and PShG-2 Rounds


www.newsfrombabylon.com...


Oh and a final note, here is what the Army had to say about it, here is an excerpt

One armor expert at Fort Knox, Ky., suggested the tank may have been hit by an updated RPG. About 15 years ago, Russian scientists created tandem-warhead anti-tank-grenades designed to defeat reactive armor. The new round, a PG-7VR, can be fired from an RPG-7V launcher and might have left the unusual signature on the tank.

In addition, the Russians have developed an improved weapon, the RPG-22. These and perhaps even newer variants have been used against American forces in Afghanistan. It is believed U.S. troops seized some that have been returned to the United States for testing, but scant details about their effects and �fingerprints� are available.

Still another possibility is a retrofitted warhead for the RPG system being developed by a Swiss manufacturer.

At this time, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank, sources concluded. The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead, and the cohesive nature of the destructive jet suggests a more effective weapon than a fragmented-jet RPG-7.

A spokesman for General Dynamics Land Systems, which manufactures the Abrams, said company engineers agree some type of RPG probably caused the damage. After checking with them, the spokesman delivered the manufacturer�s verdict: The tank was hit by �a �golden� RPG� � an extremely lucky shot.

In the end, a civilian weapons expert said, �I hope it was a lucky shot and we are not part of someone�s test program. Being a live target is no fun.�

John Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal, which is owned by Army Times Publishing Co.

Notice how the ARMY expert says it was possibly a PG-7VR round.

Delta Chaos, next time, try not to question the facts.

One small correction . The RPG-22 came out in the early 1980s , what he probably mean't was RPG-26/29 which have enlarged 105mm tandem warheads that may feature DU liners and a penetration on the order of 1000-1100mm RHA.

RPG26-29 is fired from a new weapon system, not from the RPG-7 launcher. I am not sure that our forces have recovered, or even if they have even been shipped into Iraq, the new launch system for RPG-2x class rounds.

The most likely round type was either a TBG-7VR or the PG-7VR.

Due to the penetration velocity and inner charged core aka Sabot type round.

Oh and for Delta Chaos here is why I am referring it to a Sabot round RPG. The outer shell which contains the HEAT charge breaks away and impacts the outer target armor, while a cone type shaped charge propels a high density "slag" into the target. Thus the 'Sabot' configuration. A sabot does not have to be just a steel dart with fins that is used soley for a higher velocity. But can consist of any type of orrdinace that uses and outer "jacket" to launch and sub ordinace "projectile" in the case of the RPG round this happens to be the high density "slag".