The Prostate - A nail in the coffin of ID

reply to post by spy66


Well, spy66....with that kind of mindset, then Humans could become extinct, as well.

Or at least, YOU and your ilk will....which is Darwinism in action, if I must say.

Seriously....do you have ANY idea how many species have lived, and became extinct, on this planet....long, long before Humans even came along???

Let us examine the possibilities...there is a distinct possiblity that the Dinosaurs, if the World they lived in had not been wiped out, might have evolved into...wait....one species of the dinosaur MIGHT have evolved into a sentient being.

This is NOT outside the realm of possiblity.

Do reptiles have a prostate??? I don't know. Do Human females have a prostate?? I don't know.

Every time I hear about 'prostate cancer' it is in a man.

The prostate is a gland that manages the semen, for the man...the 'male' of the species we call Homo Homo Sapien.

Men have nipples, on their breasts. Do we give milk? Of course not....the nipples are part of the genetic code, comes from the womb. Each early fetus develops, according to the DNA mix of the Ovum and the Sperm...

Men's nipples are part of that....it is evolution, not 'ID'.....BTW, a woman will NOT give milk from her nipples, unless she is pregnant...or, more specifically, post-partum. It is in the hormones, to trigger lactation....

reply to post by weedwhacker



I'm curious.

What can you cite that has recently "evolved" as you say?

Where's all the evidence for that theory?

reply to post by toasted


toasted....OK, I'll try.

You asked 'recently' evolved.

Well....that's the problem....and I'm not being evasive. When we discuss so-called 'macro-evolution' we are talking about a very dynamic process that occurs well outside any one Human's lifetime. Hence, the current controversy.

Without spending hours of writing, let me ask this: Fossils of ancient giant animals that obviously are not alive anymore have been verified, many times over. BUT, it seems that some of THEIR descendants may still be among us, even today, albeit in changed form. I'm referring to birds, for example....lizards, crocodiles, etc....and this just the land-based creatures we see today. How can this be?

So...."large", what we now call 'dinosaurs' are extinct. The truly behemoths of the past. ALL of this happened well before any homonids yet existed. Reptiles (and insects) ruled, then.

But, to go back.....within just a few Humans, within our recorded history, we can see examples of 'micro-evolution', if you will....in animal husbandry, for instance.

Domestication of livestock.....and wolves into dog breeds, and felines into cat breeds, etc, etc.

What THAT shows is that, within a particular species (man included!!) genetic variations can be observed, and new results established.

As I have said, large-scale evolution of species is something that can only be inferred, by looking back at evidence. That does NOT diminsh the science, however!!! Every knew discovery does one of two things: It re-inforces or disputes certain varying 'sub-theories'.....or better, 'hypotheses' within the greater over-all theory.

BECAUSE....that is how theories work!!!! They are dynamic....they are incomplete. BUT, to be called a 'theory', it firstly has a broad base of support.

IF ID wishes to bring verifiable alternatives, that can withstand peer review examination.....then, that 'hypothesis' will be considered.

So far, not seen anything of the sort......

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


Either side of this argument, is based on human understanding and belief, regarding the purpose, for the experience or universe they live in.

Putting religion aside, and out of the argument....

It really comes down to whether "Intelligence", can be found or is even present or not.

If humankind is found to be Intelligent, then Intelligence, is part of the equation, but if Intelligence can Not be found, then all is Random and Humanity is Unintelligent I guess.

I suspect that Humanity can't face or accept the possibility, that there are underlying Intelligent rules, that govern what is accepted as evolution and random selection.

It is because humankind does Not know the reason behind their existence, that they are unable understand, why we find the opposites of all in this experience, including Success and Failure.

But all our reasoning is subjective and is all based on acceptability depending on our belief systems.

You will always have Two in everything as all comes in pairs!

Left & Right, up & Down, Yes and Know, Black and White, Inner and Outer, and opposing Groups, which is all Normal in this Experience.

There is in fact reason for everything in this Universe, which is Not based on the rules of humankind, but on other rules involving a completely different understanding.

This universe is Not really about what you see i.e. the development of any species. including humankind. as all is taken away on Death.

All is in Vein!

The great becomes Naught, The Wealthy becomes naught, The knowledgeable becomes naught, and all passes away.

Yet something remains and the Universe continues in its Story!

So what is it really all about ???

Human Success, the proving of an argument, a better system, Monetary gain, Moral development, Spiritual development, or for no reason at all ???

It is Not for any of these reasons obviously!

Just because we can Not have our way, or anything else in the Universe, can Not have its way, does Not mean ID is Not present.

It just means we are against ID, or at war with ID.

We can only judge ID, by our Ignorance either way, unless we are able to know that Intelligence underlying the Laws of Physics etc.

If we Exclude ID and Deny Intelligence, then we can only accept, that Intelligence is "Non existent" and thus Humankind is Unintelligent... LOL.

Oops....

But as you know, you yourself may be Intelligent, well we hope so anyway...

Do we really want to lack Intelligence ???

I don't think so....

So why is Humankind, so terrified of Intelligence, and the probability of ID ???

Perhaps then, humankind is really a slave, to some Intelligence in some form, Not understood or Not even accepted by Humankind ???

But at the End of the day, there still exists some form of order, found in Physics and other associated Sciences.

So what produced these rules and how ???

No... I do Not believe in a being up there, of human thought or understanding, that has made everything and controls or plays with what it has made!

I can easily accept though, that there are rules or laws, that govern our experience and the behaviour of the Universe.

But I can Not condemn the Idea of ID, just because of our Ignorance...
Can You ???

I guess we need to keep looking for the Answers rather than leap of the bus and try and get everyone to believe in an illusion of human reason.

Humankind will find the Answers, in their so called Science, sooner or latter it is Not a matter of IF but When!

But this process is very, very, slow and really we are the Dawn of knowledge Not the Completion....

Humankind has to get over itself,and start to wake up and ask some very very Serious and Intelligent Questions rather than just believe anything just because it makes us feel secure and happy!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
IF ID wishes to bring verifiable alternatives, that can withstand peer review examination.....then, that 'hypothesis' will be considered.

So far, not seen anything of the sort......

What? What about the "Common Ancestor", you know the foundation stone of evolution, it's on the same par as ID. There is no evidence of it, it's hasn't undergone peer review, there isn't anything to review except theory.

Explain to me how you think an organism would know sight exists? How would it know that? I'm interested to see your answer...

reply to post by B.A.C.


BAC...there is no 'common stone' of evolutionary theory.

Please don't spout innoucous nonsense.

The concept of the OP is specific: It is about, but not limited to, the prostate in the Human Male.

The prostate is a gland which produces semen....but, it also tends to be prone to cancer, for some reason.

So, apologies to the OP, but I do not see the prostate as the 'final nail' in defeating ID. There are many, many, many more examples to diminsh the notion of ID, and that's just in the Human body...

ID, or 'Intelligent Design', ifit is not a 'Trojan Horse' for Creationism, is at best an hypothesis. An idea, not a 'Theory' as theories are defined.

An hypothesis, in order to grow enough 'gravitas' to become accepted as a 'Theory' must have repeatable, verifiable peer-reviewed substantiation behind it. ID does NOT meet this standard.

'ID' is a 'Belief'.....nothing more.

A 'belief' is impossible to debate. Oh, I know....some will say, "Well, WeedWhacker, you 'believe' in evolution!"

And to those I will respond, no....you are missing the point. I cannot think of anything more trite than the 'Theory of Gravity'. I 'believe' that if I hold out my arm a drop a rock whilst on the surface of the Earth, it will fall to the ground.

'Gravity' is observable, repeatable, experienced....BUT is still a 'Theory' because not all aspects of gravity are, as yet, fully explained.

Evolution, as a whole, is on very solid ground (no pun) much like Gravity. We KNOW it exists....the mechanisms are observable. Evolutionary Theory is 'repeatable' in the sense that the observations, from all over the World, are 'repeatable' and logical.

One problem, which is probably the crux, is the 'experiential' part of evolution, to the casual observer (i.e., the Human).

Gravity seems to happen intanaenously. Evolution, of course, is a very slow process....in the case of 'macro' it goes well beyond any one Human's lifespan. 'micro' has been observed experimentally, in other species.

Having said that....sometimes the best way that science can progress is by iinferring backwards. Earth is a huge planet....it is ludicrous to assume, and thusly dny the existence of evolution, because of a ridiculous demand for so-called 'PROOF' of a common ancestor!!!

How about thousands of lifeforms, from all over the planet? Some succeeded, some died out.....life crops up everywhere. Even at the bottom of the ocean.

(look up 'extremophiles').....

reply to post by weedwhacker


I never said anything about a "common stone", I said something about a "Common Ancestor" which is the very first step in Evolutionary Theory. It's the very foundation that Evolutionary Theory is based upon. Have you actually studied Evolutionary Theory? This is common knowledge. Now if you don't agree with the "Common Ancestor" then you don't agree with Evolutionary Theory completely. Well said.

BTW there are plenty of Peer Reviewed papers about ID. Did you research this? The last few years there haven't been any because of the obvious controversy, but don't say there aren't any, that's just ignorance.

Now you quit spouting nonsense, especially when you're clearly wrong.

deny ignorance

[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

reply to post by B.A.C.


Yes...BAC....I used a term, the 'stone'....just to incite a continued debate.

I have roommates who periodically go outside for 'a smoke'....for a CIGARRETTE, in case you're wondering...because I hate smoke of any kind....

Topic... ID.

I still have yet to see any scientific evidence to support ID, except for a certain 'belief' system....which is based on a Religious Dogmatic concept.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I still have yet to see any scientific evidence to support ID, except for a certain 'belief' system....which is based on a Religious Dogmatic concept.....

I have the same problem with scientific evidence for Abiogenesis and the "Common Ancestor". It's based on scientific dogma. Not actual facts.

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove ID, if thats what you're looking to argue about you picked the wrong guy.

Later.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

reply to post by B.A.C.


Ermmm....B.A.C. --- this thread is about ID...not 'abiogenisis'...

So, if you cannot support the concept of ID, then I can understand why you care not to debate.

I believe I made a very succinct claim for ID enthusiasts to come forward and state their evidence. AND, please, do not use the 'eye' and the 'brain' as part of your 'arguments'....we've been there, done that.

(HINT....our 'eye' is not perfect....think of the 'blind spot' where the optic nerve attaches.....don't need to say more about that, as involving 'ID').

ID might have something to do with aspects of 'abiogenesis'.....but ONLY if 'abiogenesis' is the beginning of ID, and the rest came naturally, through evolutionary forces.

So, either there was 'ID' in the beginning, and the rest has evolved....or....well, there really is no "or" in terms of ID....

Okay, here is the problem with this entire thread. People who believe in evolution come from all over the religious/spiritual spectrum; however, people who believe in Intelligent Design are trying to teach religion using scientific sound terminology.

You can believe in God (Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Apollo, magic pixies, etc...) and still understand science and accept as true the things which have been tested and scrutinized by scholars.

On the other hand, the people who push for ID refuse to accept that God may not be what their old book of fairy tales tells them.

This is an argument that you can never win because the ID people have "faith" in their views, and when you are dealing with faith, no matter how many facts you provide, it will never persuade them.

My proof that ID is wrong: Fatty foods are delicious, but are bad for you. Salt is delicious, but bad for your heart. Sugar is delicious, but bad for your teeth. Sex feels great, but it can give you AIDS. The sun is warm and makes you tan, but it gives you skin cancer. Drugs (I've heard:lol make you feel good, but have all kinds of negative things attached to them.

If God is perfect, then why would he/she/it make such an imperfect world?

Maybe Al Pacino said it right in the Devil's Advocate: (warning explicit language)



[edit on 28-3-2009 by finemanm]

reply to post by finemanm


You wrote....

If God is perfect, then why would he/she/it make such an imperfect world?

This is your belief, but it is based on your judgement of your world.

Perhaps the purpose of your Universe, that your experience, is Not for the purpose believed by yourself or some of humankind.

I respect your beliefs as they are yours and Not my own but this is not to say either yourself or myself is correct.

But consider for a moment....

Some may see their experience, in an entirely different understanding, than your own, but your understanding and beliefs are your own and are part of your development program.

The understanding of ID by some, does in No way involve any religion, of humankind....

Religion is a human expression, in an attempt in some cases to discredit ID, in a very subtle way, and contains much falsehood, taught by the religious leaders, even though some knowledge is still contained in many ancient writings...

There is knowledge misrepresented, in order to discredit ID, yet pretends to be holy than though.

Even in the ancient writings ( The Gospel of Thomas ) it is written,

Verse 39.

Jesus said,
“The Pharisees and the scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves
have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed
to enter those
who wish to."

While in other cases, religion is a human expression, in trying to answer some of those awkward questions, to try and obtain peace within themselves.

But humankind can say what they like, but at the end of the day, ID is Not a Religion or for that matter of religion...

Some my profess, religion to be about ID, but this is only used as a feeble excuse for humanity, Not to recognise Intelligence, or accept that Intelligence exists, or that this whole manifestation of humankind, and the environment (Universe), may in fact be the product of pure Intelligence, that is Not understood by the majority, or of Human understanding....

If Humankind, was Not so Insecure, and terrified of the possibility, that there may be in fact a purpose, for this Universe, that does Not include Religion, and are able to be truthful to themselves, they might just discover, how this experience was/is manifested, and its True purpose....

This experience is Not, an Examination, or Test, nor is it about Good and Evil, but is rather about, the rediscovery or ourselves, and the ongoing creation of something, that sets up experiences, and experiences a million and one different Universes, including other worlds, that are not understood or known by humankind.....

Even in the theory of Evolution, there exists an underlying set of rules, or laws, that you will find Intelligent, by nature, but are not entirely understood by humankind, as we don't hold all the cards.

The human experience, is that which is experienced, but not what is experiencing this phenomena.....

It is only the "Conscious State" that is "Aware" of the experience, and not the Biological form.

It is Not the Brain, that Sees, Hears, tastes or feels, as the Brain is only an "Encoder/Decoder" between the Experience, ( Universe ) and that which is "Aware" being "Consciousness".

"Consciousness" and the "Biological Form" are in two entirely different Types of Worlds linked via the Brain.

One is Material, and the Other is Non-material, but both exist, in their own Worlds.

But only the Living one (Consciousness), knows Life as the Biological form, knows nothing at all.

Your body does Not know, your "Awareness" or "Consciousness" but your "Awareness" or "Consciousness", experiences your Biological form.

Humankind is powerless to change this Fact.


[edit on 29-3-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


This is exactly the point. I point out several examples of how there is nothing intelligent about this "design" and I get a response about spirituality.

Your reply to me discusses subjective beliefs, but there is nothing subjective about fatty foods being bad for your health while being objectively more tasty. There is nothing subjective about insulin being important and diabetics can't produce it.

Intelligent Design is creationism by another name. Teach it at Sunday school for those who want their kids to believe in folklore and superstition.

But this is the thing with religious people. They want to force their superstition on the rest of us, or force their type of superstition on people who are superstitious in a different way.

You can tell your kids what ever you want. You can teach them what ever you want. Lets keep science in the science class and theology in the church.

reply to post by finemanm

Intelligent Design is creationism by another name. Teach it at Sunday school for those who want their kids to believe in folklore and superstition.

I can't agree with you on this point, and I do do Not belong to any Religious Group or denomination!

I don't understand your association with the religious side, as religion has actually become a minority following in the world, these days.

As I have already said that there is an underlying structure, to the behaviour, (the Rules or Laws governing evolution) of what is accepted by some as evolution.

There are many who are researching in the area of ID, who certainly are not religious, and to suggest otherwise is just being uninformed...

So I can't understand your desire, to generalise in saying that ID is somehow religious.

Perhaps you could use the term loosely, "Creationism" but how can you include Religion?

There may very well be a Religious theology of Creationism but that is only One form of so called Creationism...

I guess Religion has achieved its goals in debunking the idea of ID, in a very strange way, but this does Not stop research in the area if ID.

To understand your reasoning I would first need to understand your definition of "spirituality" as this term is so vague, it may very well be undefinable....

But it is interesting how some, are so resistant to the concept of Intelligence being involved in the structuring of, what may be just one of innumerable programs that produces an experience for you.

I would hate to imagine that you reject the Idea that Intelligence existing in any species or any thing at all ???

I do believe some form of Intelligence can be found through many species, including human primates... LOL..

Or are you trying to suggest that No species uses Intelligence on Earth???

After all DNA is only a "Chemical Based Program", and is accepted by the Scientific community as being just that! a Chemical Based Program.

Are you trying to tell us that DNA is Not a Chemical Based Program???

Or there is no pattern of structure or behaviour with regard to DNA???

So what cased the structure of DNA to develop, from perhaps nothing or even Something???

If so Please give me your interpretation of DNA....

Perhaps I am missing something in your argument and need to be enlightened....


[edit on 29-3-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by finemanm
Okay, here is the problem with this entire thread. People who believe in evolution come from all over the religious/spiritual spectrum; however, people who believe in Intelligent Design are trying to teach religion using scientific sound terminology.

You can believe in God (Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Apollo, magic pixies, etc...) and still understand science and accept as true the things which have been tested and scrutinized by scholars.

On the other hand, the people who push for ID refuse to accept that God may not be what their old book of fairy tales tells them.

This is an argument that you can never win because the ID people have "faith" in their views, and when you are dealing with faith, no matter how many facts you provide, it will never persuade them.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for saving me some typing.

In fact people who do not accept the Intelligent Design belief should not have to be defensive and find the need to critique it.

It is a thinly veiled attempt to discredit the Theory of Evolution, and by implication progressive reasoning which accepts religious faith but realizes the mythology stories behind them are not Divine inspired.

Not brought up, if the Middle Eastern narrative is literally true, and man was created in God's Image, then there's a whole bunch of problems there.

Implicidy, The Lord as design template, had the apparatus which was used when Adam was created. Lots of blasphemous questions arise. Why does He have sex organs? When does He use them? What shape is His prostate in? etc.

Creationism which uses the Intelligent Design concept as a way to appeal to modern people, is so full of irreconcilable inconsistencies of logic it doesn't need help in disproving itself.

One would have to be an unquestioning believer to accept it as an article of faith.

So we are back to square one.


Mike

I definitely wouldnt agree that your failed understanding of such things as appendix, tonsils, or prostate equate to a failure of "intelligent design" or whatever you want to call it.

I am not christian, nor do i believe in any old man with a flowing grey beard, or any type of what we would define as will, or intelligence, creating the universe per se. However, i do believe that the universe is totally created from consciousness, and that we are all a part of it, and that all the universe gravitates towards life, and perhaps life and consciousness are just another form of matter like solid or liquid....or indeed that all these are just subclasses of consciousness.

At any rate, the prostate has a definite necessary function in procreation, just as the appendix has now been found to have a function in repopulating intestinal flora after microbial domination, such as in amoebic dysentery. Similar to how tonsils have a function in containing infection. Just because our understanding does not encompass it yet does not mean it is there, just as the purpose of our deterioration, or our experience of difficulties such as cancer or prostate enlargement, may not be perfect according to YOUR ideal of what is perfect, but as a flawed creation (according to your ideal, not mine, i believe we are all perfectly where we are supposed to be) your ideal of perfect most likely does not line up with what your progenitors is. Perhaps there is a reason these folk need to deal with and learn lessons from the difficulties they go through, and often these difficulties are brought upon themselves through lifestyle choices.

Seems to me, we all make debilitory and destructive lifestyle choices, and then lament to our diety or creator of choice when those lifestyle choices cause our bodies to fare less than perfectly. If our bodies behaving perfectly is even what they are meant to do.

sorry, long winded above....main point was how do we know that the perfect reason for our being here isnt TO DEAL with these difficulties and "imperfections" that life has handed us, and learn and grow thereby?

We dont look at the ground and judge one blade of grass more or less perfect than another because it is taller or shorter, or fatter, though we judge each other so. We dont look at a forest of trees and judge one "more perfect" than another because it leans more to one side, or buds more flowers than another, though we may judge each other so. Our ideas of our imperfection are entirely subjective, and just as Katsumoto in the last samurai realized on the brink of death that all the cherry blossoms are perfect, hopefully we can realize before our moment of death just how perfect we each are.

Regardless of our successes or our failures, our fatness or thinness, our brightness or our dullness, we are not comparable to one another. We are all completely singular occurances, there are NO ordinary lifes, there are NO ordinary days. By virtue of our very existence we are incredible and unfathomable, never to be recreated, and worthy of all love and praise.


"surely he who is worthy to recieve his days and nights is worthy of all else from you" -khalil gibran

This life is more than ordinary.....dont ever fool yourself or allow yourself to be lulled by this "boredom" that we humans have created in a world of possibilities, while forgetting that the stars in the sky are just as incredible and mysterious as they were the first time we looked up into the sky, and the frogs and flowers upon the ground are just as glorious and beautiful as they were the very first time we looked down.